- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
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- politics@lemmy.world
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Here’s an easy decision… stop blocking the international community from pursuing diplomatic and economic remedies that would pressure Isreal to not commit genocide. Stop supplying military aide (potentially excepting the specialized hardware to maintain the iron dome).
Sounds like a pretty fucking easy solution…
Sounds like the Biden administration is taking a needlessly hard path just to appease AIPAC and similar foreign actors.
It’s important not to fall into a purely majority rule situation, but the Jewish community in America is divided on this matter… we can’t let the minority of a minority that’s in favor of this genocide steer international policy.
That would require admitting that they were wrong. Which I admit is hard, but come on, man.
The entire bottom paragraph of what you said is entirely wrong. I support Palestine and stopping Israel, but a majority of Jewish people (62%) in the US are fine with the war and the direction it’s going in. As are most Americans. Your point of not having majority rule is true to some extent, but it’s hard to argue that while also knowing that not respecting Majority rule is how we got the first trump administration… Data
As are most Americans.
There are more non-Jewish Americans in support of Israel. Due to party loyalty and skewed right-wing media, 41% of Republicans think Israel is doing a good job and 24% think they should kill more Palestinians.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1
As are most Americans.
Weird to correct someone and then just add in an extra bonus fact that’s wrong. Unless you’re claiming “not sure” is “fine with”, which it isn’t. “Fine with” is “acceptable”.
About four-in-ten U.S. adults (38%) say Israel’s conduct of the war has been acceptable, and 34% say it has been unacceptable. The remaining 26% are unsure.
And more importantly, these aren’t random samples of the population. Dem/Lean Dem respondents said Israel’s conduct is unacceptable by 52-22.
It’s a bit more complicated I think and the polling is pretty close. Here’s a survey from about a month ago that puts the divide closer to 50/50. I suppose a better way to word my last paragraph is either “half a minority” or “a portion of a minority”.
I did want to highlight the Jewish community’s opinion though because I think the division there is extremely telling - and because I know the evangelical community is all in on genocide but, imo: they’re a bunch of fucking idiots, I don’t care what they think, and their opinions are irrelevant to politics because most of them will vote for Trump come hell or high water.
It’s not Jews, it’s Republicans that you need to look at. The US sees Israel as an investment first, a military base second, and a sovereign nation third.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1
I don’t disagree - but in terms of this election everyone who considers themselves a Trump republican is unswayable… but there are a lot of folks outraged at Netanyahu who may refuse to vote at all.
They’ll be inviting a far worse supporter of genocide of not just Palestinians, but Ukrainians as well.
You’ll not hear any disagreements from me - but even here on lemmy you’ll find people who are planning to refrain from voting because they morally object to voting for someone who is supporting genocide. That’s a very fair morale stance in the abstract but in this case you’ve got two real choices and choosing not to vote is inviting even more death.
You’re right, and it’s sad. They really don’t understand how much worse it’ll be if they put their pride in front of the polls. I’m voting reluctantly out of fear of the repercussions of another Trump presidency, and I’m older than average on here. They have so much more to lose that won’t just “come back” with the next election.
People supporting genocide doesn’t make it okay.
How is that easy?
Biden has to support Israel. It’s a centerpiece of us foreign policy for a reason; they want a friend in the region, and there is huge support from his constituents. It’s basically politically impossible to say no.
We don’t need Isreal as a strategic partner - we’re on good terms with the UAE, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia and generally good terms with Turkey, Oman and Iraq - Isreal isn’t foundational to American security, America is foundational to Isreali security.
You say that, but americas actions paint a totally diffedifferent picture. They are joined at the hip with Israel and that isn’t going to change easily.
That isn’t for strategic reasons though… it’s because most Americans want a peaceful Isreal to exist (partially because the holocaust was awful, partially because we’ve got a large jewish population, partially because we like underdogs and partially because racism) and the fact that Isreal is inciting violence is just now reaching some people. I think public opinion is moving hard away from Isreal but, historically, most Americans supported giving them outrageous levels of aide.
Nobody needs a friend so badly that they’re justified in making friends with a genocidal maniac. I understand that Israel has been a long-term investment, but the amount of human suffering going on right now vastly outweighs any lamentations about sunk cost. What this country needs is a president willing to show that he cares about preventing suffering above all else. Doctors take an oath to both do good and do no harm - it’s time for our presidents to do the same, and be held to it to the same degree.
Says the nazi
They’re cracking down harder on these protesters than the January 6th insurrectionists lol.
Trump was in charge on J6. The failure to crack down then, is in part due to Trump intentionally not cracking down. I would compare this to the heavy handed crackdown on the DC Black Lives Matter protesters. You know, the one where he heals a Bible upside down. That was a violent crackdown on mostly peaceful protestors.
Fair points.
Side note just in case it saves you from a gotcha in arguing with a Maga nutjob, but Trump didn’t hold the Bible upside down that day, per NYT, Politifact, and other fact checkers. He’s still a useless piece of shit.
In all fairness, they don’t have the president’s encouragement.
Trump refused to send people to crack down on the January 6th insurrectionists.
Also, pretty hard to say that when one didn’t last a day and resulted in criminal accusations, the other has been going on for over a week and, as far as I know, has seen no one being criminally accused.
People are being charged with assault, hate speech, trespass and resisting arrest.
All of which are criminal charges.
Four colleges simply met with their protestors, came to an agreement to not invest in companies supporting the war, and publicly call for peaceful resolution.
Why is it so damn hard for all the other ones?
Jewish donors and money tied to Israel.
Yeah. It was a rhetorical question.
I’m a bit slow, but your rhetorical question wasn’t clear to me. I appreciated the answer, and your confirmation of what was said.
Wait… I thought we were supposed to deny any connection between Israel and Judaism to prevent being accused of antisemitism?
I can’t keep up here.
It’s a tough thing. The Israelis and friends are using money and influence to get laws passed in the US and have protests shut down. Which fits really neatly into ancient (literally) anti semite ideas. And it’s really hard to talk about without someone just strawmanning you as a racist.
It’s foolish to pretend there aren’t some Jews who strongly identify with Israeli policy.
I’m just saying that until now, there has been a refusal to make any linkage between Israel the nation and Judaism itself.
I wonder what has changed for some of you, or if nothing has changed and you are just getting more comfortable.
Not Judaism. Some Jews.
All of Isis is Muslim. Not all Muslims are Isis.
Meh, evangelical Christians are also very pro-Israel, and give tons of money to pro-Israel groups. Some of the more hawkish strategists are pro-Isreal for military and geopolitical reasons.
There are Messianic Jews (actually Christians) living in Israel too.
came to an agreement to not invest in companies supporting the war
No, they came to an agreement to listen to a proposal to maybe not invest in those companies.
Isn’t it obvious, Joe?
“While I condemn Hamas, and supported Israel’s right to defend itself in the aftermath of the attacks, the use of force in reprisal has become excessive - beyond what is justified or acceptable. So effective immediately, I’m halting all arms shipments to Israel, and calling on President Netanyahu to withdraw IDF troops from Gaza and the West Bank.”
Problem solved.
Mossad has entered the chat.
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He honestly thinks AIPAC is going to win him his election and not his pissed off voterbase lol.
Even if he’d just say “I hear you and you’re right, but sometimes I have to make bad choices for the country that are better for the long term” would be something.
The problem with something like that is Biden has no way to speak to the people without Israel also hearing.
Well… He also has very few friends in Israel. Bibi prefers Trump (who recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, which was a Bad Thing), and the way he’s forcing Biden to eat shit right now seems like a pretty easy way to put his thumb on the scale.
“Alright this one is just for the people. Anyone in the government needs to close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears and say ‘lalala’ for the next half hour.”
EZ 😎
That would be nice, but iirc he needs a legal justification or an act passed by congress to actually halt arms shipments. He made moves not too long ago against a specific part of the Israeli military that was found to be committing war crimes, which Netanyahu is opposing. If we get lucky, he might be able to use Netanyahu’s lack of cooperation to suspend or halt military aid entirely. His rhetoric has been trending in that direction, so I’m hopeful.
Are you lying to yourself or to us? He just signed a bill to give them billions of dollars and veto every resolution the UN comes up with while also trying to block the arrest warrant. You need to actually do some research and stop watching DNC propaganda news networks.
The Leahy Law. And the one unit they went after was smoke for the entire operation in Gaza. They aren’t letting men leave the combat area right now. Just detaining and torturing them. This isn’t just one problem unit.
Lmao even if he did that right this second, people would still be bitching that he didn’t do it months ago. Sure, it would have been great if he had started off that way, but what’s past is past, and if you want him to change course, then let the fucker change course
So 10 minutes after someone murders someone and they say I won’t do that again, we should just say “the past is the past and at least he’s not murdering anymore”?
Biden needs to be held accountable for the role he played in the genocide in Gaza. The right thing to do would be for him to end it at any cost, but he still needs to be held accountable for his crimes.
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Mexico attacked the US like Hamas attacked Israel
Bad comparison. Mexico is an independent nation recognized by the UN. No nation disputes it’s sovereignty over it’s lands.
Palestine is dependent on Israel. Israel controls the flow of people and goods from it’s borders. Israel controls electrical power to Palestine. Israel geographically surrounds Palestine.
One actor holds all the cards here. One actor has the power to improve conditions in Gaza (people don’t generally choose to support violent militants for no reason) and chooses to bomb it.
No nation disputes it’s sovereignty over it’s lands.
That’s not true, see Ukraine and plenty of other nations over history.
Mexico is also the closest to “has a terrorist organization capable of carrying out an attack near the scale of 9-11 living right next door and running the government.”
You’re right it isn’t even close because the US government would never let it get that close.
Israel geographically surrounds Palestine.
Neither the Gaza strip (where all the fighting is going on AFAIK) or the west bank are “geographically surrounded.” I checked a map because you legit made me question my geography.
One actor has the power to improve conditions in Gaza
I don’t think that’s entirely fair either. Israel can’t “fix” Palestine anymore than the US can fix the problems in Mexico … unless they take over Palestine. Nobody wants that…
They could definitely do more to let aid in. They could definitely do better about not hitting civilian targets… But this is not a “just do nothing and everything will get better silly Israel” situation. I think that’s a pretty absurd take as popular it seems here.
Mexico attacking the US is an invalid comparison. Palestine isn’t attacking Israel, Hamas is
Exactly, it’s more like the cartels attacked the US and we in retaliation started bombing mexico out of existence while invading them and taking all of their land.
You do understand Hamas, the same Hamas that attacked Israel, is effectively the government of the Gaza strip right? The Palestinian authority had no recognized authority there.
So that’s also a “terrible metaphor” because “it would be like the government of Mexico was the drug cartels, the drug cartels (which are the government) attacked the US and we in retaliation started bombing Mexico out of existence.”
There’s no perfect metaphor.
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Stop aiding Israel’s genocide doesn’t seem too difficult, but I’m not a Zionist.
Supporting genocide or not supporting genocide. Gee, what a tough choice.
sigh
Study a little US history and you’ll find we’ve struggled with that question pretty much since the nation’s founding.
It’s not been much of a struggle. We’ve almost always been solidly in favor
Before Pearl Harbor, the US was totally fine with what the Nazis were doing in Europe, even going as far as to disparage Jewish people and refuse to allow them to come from Europe to the US for asylum. Seems things never change and our leaders consistently have no problem being on the wrong side of history.
Probably wouldn’t have had an issue or done anything in Europe if nazis didn’t declare war on us
small pox blankets have entered the chat
The fact that the US has made bad choices doesn’t make not supporting genocide a complex question
It does beg the question, what other pressures is he facing and why would he bow to them?
In your words of a tough choice… The moral choice is not tough. The quick “just do it” take is not tough. It’s easy to just throw all in.
The actual steps that must be made at the level of potus are tough even with the will. The time, the complexity, the repercussions, the fallout… the reality that is a little less clear than “all or nothing” is hard. The ship does not turn on a dime.
Not disagreeing with you but just saying it’s not a simple choice, but instead a tough direction in a world where the GOP sees presidential powers only apply to republicans and democrats aren’t even citizens.
There are many things that can be done, but biden isn’t doing any of them. There are also things he could simply not do (e.g. supplying weapons), but he goes out of his way to do them. I’d understand if biden was trying to do the right thing, but he’s really not.
I would argue that they are being done but you’re not seeing the effects quite yet.
I can dig it. While the compromise is unfortunately still ongoing, it’s important to not get caught up in compromise
You can argue it but you would be dead fucking wrong.
Until we know those details, your just projecting cope.
Recognizing the speed of reality isn’t projecting anything and learn to spell.
How hard is to just not sign a piece of paper that gives tens of billions to Israel? Seems pretty easy to me.
Stop supplying the weapons for Genocide?
[Biden] largely sidestepped protesters’ demands, which have included ending U.S. support for Israeli military operations. Asked after his remarks whether the demonstrations would prompt him to consider changing course, Biden responded with a simple “no.”
Biden on this topic.
He’s got a super easy solution:
“Sorry Israel, but you fucked up royally! We’re suspending all aid; recognizing the state of Palestine as an independent nation, and will begin the process of rebuilding Gaza and reappropriating all of your illegal settlements on their land.”
Simple!
“Okay. We’re joining BRICS. Mr. Putin loves genocide, and he’s really going to love all this American tech we can show him.”
Simple indeed.
They’re going to join a coalition that includes Iran?
Tomorrow? Of course not. Inside the decade? Absolutely. Saudi-Israel relations are thawing as we speak, and that hostility basically dates since the foundation of the modern Israeli state. If Israel and Iran suddenly find themselves on the same side of geopolitics (i.e., if both of them are American enemies because apparently a lot of Lemmings think we should break diplomatic relations with Israel altogether, meaning that Israel is on the side of China, Russia, etc.), then anything is possible.
What would Bibi’s alternative be? Go it alone?
Israel just attacked Iran, who then responded by shooting a bunch of rockets at them literally just days ago. I also don’t think Iran is going to back Israel while they’re slaughtering a bunch of Palestinians. Furthermore Bibi isn’t going to be around forever and it remains to be seen if the rest of the Israeli leadership follows in his footsteps once he’s gone.
You’re right. Forging any kind of working relationship between Israel and Iran would be extremely challenging. I guess maybe Israel and the US should try to find a path forward as allies.
I see no issue with forging a path forward as allies provided they end their genocide and occupation. I mean, what else is there really to be done short of that?
US sells/provides/uses so many armaments around the world that it’s laughable to think Russia doesn’t already have their hands on at least a vast chunk of our “tech”. Surely trying to reverse-engineer what they can, as I’m sure any country does to foreign equipment.
Usually it’s the manufacture process of tech that is the “secret sauce”.
They have been picking up US tech from the battlefield for the last 2 years
Man facing pressure from swarm of angry hornets can see no possible way to soothe the increasingly enraged colony as he continues to hit nest with stick
US politicians are bought by the israeli lobby. We need to crack down on corruption in the most extreme way.
Wow CNN. Tone deaf much?
CNN is DNC propaganda just like Fox news is RNC propaganda.
No it isn’t.
Presenting independently verifiable facts in a way that bolsters your perspective is not the same as making up stories and using entirely false data to incite your listeners.
I bet fox news watchers say the exact same thing.
Not the ones I’ve spoken to.
Conservatives won’t usually meet a challenging topic head on, they try to avoid and misdirect from rather than address an issue.
It boils down to a fundamental difference in perspective and ultimately behavior.
When conservatives are presented with information, even completely made up stories, that agree with their preconceived notions, they accept the story regardless of the logic or substance of the story. Once information that disagrees with their preconceived notions arises, they reject the story regardless of the logic or substance because it isn’t something they’ve learned before.
When liberals are presented with information, they accept or reject the story based on the available substantiated information and how it fits into what they have learned so far.
This is the process behind what fundamentally makes a “conservative” and a “liberal”.
Conservatives are inherently afraid of challenges to their worldview and as a result, resist change simply for the sake of protecting themselves as long as possible.
Liberals are also inherently afraid of challenges to their worldview, but persist in discovering the truth and apply what they’ve learned to their behavior because of the benefits that context, understanding and new knowledge might bring about.
Jesus dude… do you hear yourself?
Figuratively?
being President isnt supposed to be an easy job… he’s been in politics 52 years now, cant he figure out a solution?
Clearly he can’t. He is a lifetime politician and he is the living embodiment of “status quo”.
It’s not his to seek.
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