I’m fucking ashamed of my country for supporting Israel. They seem like evil bastards at this point, just committing wholesale genocide and for what?
Hamas killed 1200 with about 500 to 600 civilian deaths so Israel kills over 21000 with of 19000 civilian deaths with 8000 being children . I really hope america finds someone else to elect president other than Biden who wants to send more weapons to Israel or Trump who is facing 90 criminal charges. There has to be a better option right ? I wouldn’t be able to bring myself to vote for either one of those people .
Trump would also send more weapons. Dont forget he supported the settlements and moved the embassy
It is a real shame as the USA has had opportunity after opportunity to be a global leader, yet they seem to a) ignore their own people’s wishes and b) favor the industrial military complex to the point that it is undermining everything including their own regime. The shortsightedness is so foolish. I say this as a Canadian who loves America but am seeing a serious decline which Canada seems to also be following. The people are not being represented yet we are constantly told we should be grateful that we have such a great democracy. I feel delusional and deeply concerned.
The US definitely do not have a great democracy, if you can even call it that
It’s a kleptocratic plutocracy cosplaying as a secular federal republic with democratic elections.
The political form of our economic system. Military industrial complex is what defines foreign policy based on the exploitation of other country’s resources on behalf of private companies. This is where the money that funds politics comes from. Politics no longer determine this economic arrangement because both parties consent to it.
The people are being represented in some ways and it’s more complex than “don’t send weapons.” Most likely polling for Biden team is showing that swing states have voters who support the Israeli military and so throwing their support behind it benefits them. Plus it helps a geopolitical ally of ours. Whether it’s the right thing or not isn’t my point, simply that there’s more to this and that technically by some polls it is widely supported. Other polls have it not as supported, but I’d bank on the Biden team knowing where to throw weight and where to give in.
Suggesting there’s a better option breaks American’s brains.
Well except the part where we’re on the brink of fascism and not voting will get Trump elected, which is completely idiotic to toy with
Trump governed like a milquetoast Republican and Democrats haven’t even tried to undo any of his legislative victories. They even committed more money to completing Trump’s stupid wall.
The difference is that he didn’t accept the peaceful transition of power at all. And they’re at it again with their new Project 2025, they’re aiming for fascism.
Electing Biden in 2020 didn’t stop them. We’re closer to fascist dictatorship than ever. What will electing Biden this time around do to stop them, so that we’re not on the precipice again in 2028, if not earlier?
It at least delays it. And the alternative is voting for Trump.
Who do you want to elect then? A third party that can’t mathematically get elected?
Project 2025 is a new iteration of something latent in your political system, Reagan was the first to explicitly reference unitary executive theory in signing statements which Bush Jr. also did.
Ultimately your founders didn’t define what the office of the president really means, and presidents have explored and pushed this position to the limits it exists as today. Trump maybe will succeed in finally exposing the critical faults that lie in the country’s founding notions.
My whole life since Reagan Democrats have been appealing to the idea that “this is the last chance” for democracy in the US in order to double-down on the consenting arrangement that has only spiraled further to the right, resulting in the current situation. Maybe it’s been true this whole time, but this “just vote Dem so we can fix it later” thing is clearly just making it worse, else you wouldn’t be in this situation.
Until Dems unite behind ranked choice voting and well-designed non-partisan redistricting, DESPITE the fact that they might lose seats to rando third party candidates, nothing will change. I wish the American populous of all political stripes knew about these necessary reforms and were willing to loudly fight for them. It would change the USA as we know it.
Democrats haven’t even tried to undo any of his legislative victories.
Except they have, did and are doing.
They even committed more money to completing Trump’s stupid wall.
Lie. They stopped completing the stupid wall. (But they didn’t break contracts which were already done and paid for).
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/06/us/border-wall-biden.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67015137
Except they have, did and are doing.
I’m some cases they’re even doubling down on Trump’s policies. The Trump Tariffs, which the WTO ruled against in 2022, Biden condemned the WTO in response: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/09/wto-ruling-trump-tariffs-violate-rules-00073282
Because that’s not how it works.
It’s too late for Dems to field an alternative that doesn’t just play spoiler and get Trump elected. And barring some massive turn of events, the spell Trump has on the GOP isn’t going to break. Americans need to game it out long term and think strategically about who will be more likely to lead to the kind of change you’d like to see. Even if you think Biden won’t do any of the things you want to see happen, at least there will be room to talk about it under him. A second Trump presidency will again smother outside opinions under a cloud of chaos and cruelty and incompetence. If you like the abiity to protest - remember how it was dealt with under Trump. Which means for anyone with a shred of humanity - plug your nose if you have to and vote Biden.
There isn’t only 2 options. It’s insane that you keep voting for the same 2 corrupt useless parties when you have several others to choose from. And if everyone keeps saying “but they’ll never make it” they actually won’t. Only if you start voting for them the 2 party system can be abolished.
As a staunch Bernie supporter, I’ve accepted that America is currently too broken to consider alternatives. We are on the brink of full collapse of our entire democratic system and have already been through an insurrection that a large percentage of the population is perfectly okay with. We’re heading toward full blow autocracy with another greedy Putin / Xi at the helm which will threaten the entire world so cut us some slack if we need to be pragmatic for the time being.
My only hope in the US right now as a socialist, is that the current neoliberal death spiral between the two consenting parties will eventually lead to people saying enough is enough in a meaningful political way, that combined with labor organizing. Every use of the word “realistic” to bolster the current arrangement of the parties is evidence they’re still comfortable with it in some manner and believe in it, that they still consent to this “reality.” The continued erosion of the social contract will change this over time, then they’ll either turn their dissatisfaction towards an internalized “other,” or they will choose the solidarity option and throw the bosses of their backs.
Accepting things are bad and displaying how this affects you to others is the bare minimum to even begin to organize against this system. Any time a Democrat supporter tries to do the “realistic” or “clearly better but not good” thing they’re rationalizing and regulating what should be a display of revulsion.
It is insane, but again, we have to be realistic about how things work. The system is literally slanted to emphasize two parties. If we had something like ranked choice voting then at least we could start to support third options. But the way it works now, unfortunately, a vote for a third party is as good as a vote for the candidate you hate the most.
The problem is mathematical.
To win the presidential election, you need to win a majority of the vote in enough states to win a majority of electoral college votes.
If no-one gets 270 electoral votes, then the House of Representatives meets. Each state delegation gets 1 vote. Right now, that means that the Republican wins, due to e.g. Wyoming and Alaska getting just as much of a vote as NY and California, and Republican gerrymandering of swing states.
There’s literally no way for third party candidates to be elected president. The best that a third party has ever done was in 1860, a 4 way race between a Democrat, Republican, Southern Democrat, and Constitutional Unionist.
Lincoln, the Republican, got 39.8% of the vote but won 18 states and 180 electoral votes. The Democrat, Douglass, got 29.5% of the vote but only won a single state. Breckenridge got only 18.1% of the vote but carried most of the southern states. And Bell got 12.6% of the vote and carried 3 states - Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee.
So Douglas ended up with more than twice as many actual votes as Bell, but got over 3x the electoral vote. And Breckenridge only got less than half as many electoral college votes that he’d need to win, and could realistically have only picked up Bell’s.
The last time a third party candidate won a single electoral college vote was in 1968, when George Wallace won Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas and Louisiana. He was the former governor of Alabama, and had left the Democratic party after the 1964 civil rights law and 1965 voting rights law were passed by Johnson.
The Democrats are also more of a big tent than most parties in counties using party list PR would be. In Italy, AOC and Manchin wouldn’t be in the same party, while in the US they basically have to be to win.
The two party system exists for structural reasons. Plurality only works well in two candidate elections; third parties only do well in districts where they functionally replace a major party. Getting rid of the two party system is possible by changing the structure - switching to e.g. STAR voting in the senate and presidency and using e.g. MMP or STV in the House. But burying your head in the sand to pretend the structural issues don’t exist just doesn’t work.
Thanks for taking the time to write this comment. It is a pleasure to read informed and educational comments.
It’s only too late because Americans’ brains are broken.
Good take–hate on Americans while ignoring the Americans correctly explaining to you how the American electoral system is broken. Spend more time telling Americans that want viable third parties that they need to also support ranked-choice voting, and less time casting shade. If there’s any truth in your words, its simply that people need to know that having viable third parties REQUIRES ranked choice voting. I’m terrified that the US “No Labels” party will hand the election to Trump, because under the current system, ANY third party is an election spoiler.
There isn’t right now, unfortunately.
That’s the consensus reality you’ve accepted yes, it’s also what got you to this situation and what will keep you on this downward spiral, until the social contract erodes to the point enough people lose faith in this consensus reality.
So tell us, who’s the better option that actually exists and is running and will have the dnc allow them to run?
You’re not convincing the entire country to suddenly vote 3rd party in under a year…
Oh I wouldn’t bet a dollar on being able to convince Americans they have other options, despite them having a system where basically anyone can run for office. They’re completely enraptured with the consensus reality you express here and the political system is designed to keep them engaged in it. Only when you lose faith in this reality will anything change, the material conditions of your life will convince you.
I think a rather large portion of the population has lost faith in the system, the fact that we all feel like the only thing we’re voting for is “not the handmaid’s tale” as opposed to voting for something speaks volumes. A vote for Democrats today is simply a vote for “Not the Republicans.” We have nothing to vote for and not an insignificant number of us realize that.
We don’t have real options because even though there are other parties we have an entire society built to prevent that, everything from the political parties themselves to the media that keeps the population mislead/underinformed. Our entire society is built to protect the status quo for the wealthy.
I wish all it took was being jaded, we’re well ahead on that one. I think it’s why Trump even exists as a political entity at all, the Republican voters have also given up on the system. I think the problem shows the difference in how we choose to “solve” the issue. “Conservatives,” completely going against their name, want to burn it all to the ground via Trump and start “new.” Democrats seem to believe in some aspects of the system and want to rebuild from within the current structure. The political structures of RNC & DNC obviously want nothing but the status quo.
To suggest options exist without laying them out suggests your ignorance of reality might be greater than the Americans. How would a people trapped in an externally imposed set of political constraints be able to recognize their alternatives without some more perspective being shared.
The alternatives have been explored from the American perspective. If there is a path we have missed, please enlighten us.
The main candidates will sue your for running for president. People register for it every year and get sued out of a campaign.
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Its not the existence of a better option, no, the possibility of third option freaks them out.
The thing is, we do typically have 4-7 choices on the presidential ballot. Unfortunately our voting system strongly discourages voting for other parties if you want to actually affect the results.
More like voting for a third party is currently pointless with the way our voting system works…
That’s more accurate way to say it, because they use “better” as a justification for not entertaining a third option that is actually good.
Hamas killed 1200 with about 500 to 600 civilian deaths
Minus a few hundred Israel killed with “friendly fire”.
Oh we’re doing that? If so, take a couple thousand off the other side that Hamas killed with their rockets. 25% of those never make it out of the Gaza strip, landing on their own civilians instead of making it to Israeli population centers.
Does that number of civilians exclude civilians killed by the IDF or in the crossfire? Because if not it’s even lower.
When counting deaths in Gaza they don’t exclude those killed by the 20% of Hamas/PIJ/etc… rockets that land withing Gaza.
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moral high ground is not determined by the amount of casualties suffered by one side. there was a cease fire in place until October 6. It ended the next day. Israelis have lived in fear of terrorist attacks for too long. they have the right to defend their people and their land. and no, it’s not the land of third generation Gazans, who are majority descendants of Jordans who immigrated in the 40s.
Israelis have lived in fear of terrorist attacks for too long
And Gaza lived in fear of being bombed to the ground and murdered by the Israeli government for too long, while at the same time having all of their land stolen.
And who’s land is it then? Third generation Israelis whose grandfathers just decided to take already occupied land? That’s a funny bit.
I love how Israel is supposedly the victim all throughout their short history, yet, for some strange reason, they always gain something out of every conflict they, supposedly, get dragged into.
Edit: plus, it’s stupid to think that the israeli government didn’t want this to happen. They knew that oppression would lead to a response, and that response would justify further attacks on Gaza until they gain full control. For countries like that, what’s a few of their citizens’ lives in exchange for power? The US taught them well in that regard.
There has to be a better option right ?
Yes, if anti-war is your main thing, then Libertarians. But you’d have to get not only yourself but 20 of your friends to vote for them for them to have a chance.
https://www.lp.org/we-stand-alone-as-a-beacon-of-peace/
Note though that this means they’re ideologically against supporting Ukraine as well.
They seem like evil bastards at this point,
They’ve been since at least 1948.
The world’s least effective 70 year genocide! Those bastards. /s
Uh… Look at the Palestinian population living in Israeli controlled territory then vs now.
The 1931 census, carried out by the British, found a total population of a bit over a million people. Looking at other estimates doesn’t have it increasing that much between 1931 and 1947.
Israel’s population is currently about 9.7 million, which doesn’t count the ~5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. So about 15x the population as in 1931.
In Israel, there’s currently around 7 million Jews and 2 million Arabs. About 80% of Arab- Israelis are Sunni Muslim, 9% are Christian and 9% are Druze.
So, uh, it looks like the Muslim population of the land that is current Israel has more than doubled since 1947?
I said look at the map, not the number, for a reason. These people (generally) aren’t getting murdered. They’re getting displaced.
You definitely didn’t say that.
Yeah you’re actually right; I said it in my next reply down the chain, my bad.
Palestinian population increased by some 500% since the founding of Israel in 1948. The goal of the current Israeli operation is the destruction of the actually genocidal Hamas, not of Palestinians.
Look at the map of where Palestinians are living in 1948 (or hell, even 1966) vs now. Then you’ll see why it’s called a genocide.
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That would be a map of the whole of Israel.
Have you seen the West Bank?
Like the previous comment said, not a very effective genocide. Land wise, Palestinians were offered their own state on 48, they rejected so that Jewish people will not have their own state.
Their rejection is understandable. The west/UN offered them land? Shouldn’t the people who had lived there for generations be able to decide for themselves?
ANYTHING LESS THAN HOLOCAUST LEVEL MURDER ISN’T GENOCIDE!
-Israel bots
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Then Israel is failing miserably because they’re intentionally killing a whole lot of innocent Palestinians.
Yeah, just killed tens upon tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians since 1948. No big deal.
Certainly Israel could have been more optimal in its handling of the Palestinian psuedo-states since 1967. And there are plenty of instances of actual evil activity by Israel and her citizens (see Settler violence in the West Bank as a perfect example of that). However the idea that Israel is committing a genocide is just hyperbole and it cheapens and discredits those who make that claim.
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/588452/Israeli-Government-Mulls-Forcible-Permanent-Transfer-of-2-2-Million-Gaza
That would be the goal of the only genocidal apartheid ethnostate in the Middle East. Working as intended.
The only?
Where the fuck do you think Turkey is?
Is Turkey an apartheid state?
Ask an Armenian
Yes. Hasn’t always been, but the Kurds are very much persecuted.
Ask the Kurds.
Many Arab Jews moved to israel out of free will they weren’t forced off the land.
Anti Semitism was very low in the Arab world until israel started doing their ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Now there are some Arabs that fell into the Zionism == Judaism trap.
This israeli guy that went to Morocco failed to find Jew haters
The arab and Ethiopian jew got scammed. Their babies got stolen and maybe killed, the women went through sterilizing without knowing, and many don’t get the same right as English Jew…
It is literally a Zionist organization that behave like the Nazis
And many more
ArabPalestinian Israelis are treated like second class citizens. Your point flops.Jewish Arabs aren’t mistreated nearly as much as Muslim Arabs in israel.
The IDF literally asks for people’s religion at checkpoints.
What happens if you tell them “I’m an atheist.”?
They’ll say “you must be very smart please pass along in a wide arc so the edge doesn’t cut us”
No but in all seriousness anyone who isn’t Jewish gets discriminated against even Christians, so atheist Jews just say they’re agnostic or secular or just “not practicing their religion”. Found this article talking about it.
Though it they already have an israeli ID from for example their parents, they are of course less likely to be held up.
https://jpost.com/Israel-News/Why-are-there-so-few-atheists-in-Israel-436070
Ah so, if you were an ex-muslim, they would still probably fuck you up?
You two are saying the same thing.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
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The rest of the Arab world has less than 15,000 Jews lol. Israel is just the only country that hasn’t finished their ethnostate.
Most Arab countries aren’t ethnostates AFAIK. What happened to Arab Jews is absolutely despicable, don’t get me wrong, but it doesn’t constitute an ethnostate.
I was taking liberties to sound clever.
The ethnic cleansing has been successful then.
Clearly this is Hamas’ doing /s
As intended
This is the best summary I could come up with:
He added: “In my 35 years of working in complex emergencies, I have never written such a letter – predicting the killing of my staff and the collapse of the mandate I am expected to fulfil.”
Thomas White, director of UNRWA affairs, tweeted on Friday: “Civil order is breaking down in Gaza – the streets feel wild, particularly after dark – some aid convoys are being looted and UN vehicles stoned.
The UN officials’ comments came as Israel intensified its strikes on Gaza, hitting more than 450 targets across the territory from land, sea and air in the 24 hours up to Friday morning.
His statement was an indication of growing dismay and frustration among western diplomats over the scale of civilian deaths in Gaza in the two-month war between Israel and Hamas.
Residents and the Israeli military reported intensified fighting in northern areas, where Israel had previously said its troops had largely completed their tasks last month, and in the south where a new assault was launched this week.
In a statement on Telegram, Hamas’s al-Qassam Brigades said its fighters had discovered a special forces unit mounting a rescue attempt and attacked it, killing and wounding several soldiers.
The original article contains 1,089 words, the summary contains 199 words. Saved 82%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Hear me out…it might be time to release the hostages and for Hamas to surrender.
Surrender and what? Go back to living in an open-air concentration camp, only this time with the addition of ethnic cleansing?
Gaza is only an “open air prison” because it’s controlled by a jihadist organization fixated on a religious genocidal fantasy and willing to commit funds, resources and civilians’ lives towards it. Its’ crucial to remember that Gaza borders Egypt as well. The Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza is a legal, defensive measure taken as a result of Hamas’ intentions, threats and violence, not the other way around. Israel left Gaza in 2005 withdrawing all civilians and military, and is met with hostility and violence from the territory ever since. Leaving Gaza unchecked while Hamas operates it as a terror-state would only bring about exacerbated violence and death.
Life in the prison looks tough https://nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20
Now tell me how many of those people are dependent on international aid to survive, and how many are malnourished. And while you’re at it how many of them need medicine that they can’t get because of the blockade and have to use the tunnels, if they can get it at all.
Edit: And oh I forgot: How many of them lost family members or their homes to Israeli airstrikes.
Bet you’re gonna just ignore all that and still call it an open air concentration camp 🤦
What did Hamas do to help these people with all the humanitarian Qatari money it received? What does Hamas do now with the fuel and humanitarian aid it receives ?
It built tunnels, rockets to massacre and kill in it’s one goal, to completely drive the last of the Jews from the land. It lives underground while people above ground live in hell.
It’s sad what happened and continues to happen to the people of Gaza. I wish they will overthrow the terrible organization that rules them and start using the aid money for good
What are they supposed to do? Gaza is only allowed to buy things Israel allows them to buy, only allowed to sell things Israel allows them to sell (or does it just not allow them to export their products? I’m not sure). No government can function under these conditions. Hence the international aid, that surprise surprise Israel also limits. We can blame Hamas’s domestic policy all we want, but under these conditions they never had a chance. Gaza just doesn’t have the resources to survive without contact with the outside world.
I spent a year living in Israel during the Second Intifada, studying the conflict and talking to everyone I could, Jew, Arab, etc. I do a pretty good impression of a constipated Ariel Sharon giving a speech, “Anaaacchnu tzrichim [labored grunting] bitachon b’Israel v’hakol olam!”
You have a well-informed and factual view of the situation. Must be because you are an Israeli ex-pat and (let me guess) are secular. It’s disheartening to see propaganda-fueled idiots who have zero idea what they are talking about arguing with you–who wants reform in Israel–all because they have a black-and-white view of right and wrong, see Islam as “the underdog” that is therefore allowed to commit atrocities, and had hiphop artists telling them to “free Palestine” since 1995.
Give up the weapons, stop bombing and killing people and Israel might get rid of the fence. Worth a try…
They should’ve just asked the guards nicely and maybe they would’ve opened up the gates of Auschwitz but these darned resistances just didn’t want to stop.
Again, Gaza is no prison. It has a border with Israel and also with Egypt. Before the Oct 7th massacre Gazans were crossing to Israel for work every day.
Here’s how life in “Auschwitz” looked like https://nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20
You keep repeating Gaza is not a prison. I agree, it’s a concentration camp.
Okay. Seems like you’re under the delusion that if Israel had an open free border with Gaza, like in the EU, peace would break in the region
They’d probably need to give them equal rights and not be an apartheid state, too, and stop kicking people out of their homes. But once all that happened, the violence would probably be greatly reduced. The same thing happened with the Ira in the UK, their attacks stopped once they negotiated.
Would’ve worked for the West Bank.
And you truly believe that Israel will stop with destruction, oppression, etc?
Israel withdrew from Gaza long time ago and was not occupying Gaza before Oct 7 when Hamas decided to declare war on it by massacring and kidnapping Israeli civilians.
Ah yes, the same talking point repeated over and over again. Next time try to use your brain instead of repeating the same line:
Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[15] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt.[100] Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza’s air and maritime space, as well as six of Gaza’s seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[15] The extensive Israeli buffer zone within the Strip renders much land off-limits to Gaza’s inhabitants.[101] The system of control imposed by Israel was described in the fall 2012 edition of International Security as an “indirect occupation”. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
Or are you trying to convince me that Gaza is a paradise on earth? Why do you think those tunnels exists at the first place? Have you heard of freedom of movement? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement. How would you feel if you are not allowed to leave 41sq. km, don’t have a single functioning airport, you can’t even use the territorial waters, because they are also controlled by Israel, and your whole economy is heavily restricted. But yes, continue repeating yourself that Israel is a spotless angel who don’t have anything to do with the events from the 7th of October.
Don’t forget filled with the constant sound of drones to the point people can’t sleep or study, a majority of their water isn’t drinkable, they don’t control their own trash, and they restricted the amount of calories into their to be the bare minimum at one point.
Not a paradise but not too bad of a prison either https://nitter.net/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20
The tunnels are built to provide strategic advantage over Israeli military superiority. Also to smuggle equipment for rockets which Hamas has plenty of and uses them regularly. Ordinary Gazans do not get to use the tunnels to hide and stay alive. They are needed as human shields instead.
Israel is far from being a spotless angel. Nothing in life is black and white like that. But Hamas started this one. And Israel cannot live with an organization that kidnaps, rapes and beheads people on its border
Yes, then why don’t you go and live there for half a year to see how much you are going to like it. These tunnels were first built to smuggle normal goods in and out of Gaza, and they were the reaction of the restrictions imposed by Israel of their freedom of movement.
For this conflict to really end both sides need to do some concessions and most importantly Israel should grant some basic human rights and freedom and ensure that perpetrators of the new order would be equally persecuted by law enforcement. What I see right now is that Israel is building even more checkpoints in the West bank, approving the building of new neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem and granting impunity to violent settlers. arresting Palestinians and keeping them in prisons without effective sentence and even when they are put into court, they are tried in a military court and not civil. Relatives of Palestinian prisoners can’t even visit them and there are a lot of reports of prisoner officers exerting physical and psychological harassment of those prisoners.
So tell me honestly, if you were on the other side of the barricade, how would you feel? Would you tolerate being treated like cattle and still be happy?
And honestly speaking I don’t see any political will in Israel to change the current status quo? They don’t want to make any concessions or start treating those people decently. How many times in interviews did Israeli politicians show any will for a two-states solution? And mind you the overwhelming opinion of the international community is that the only viable solution leading to a long lasting peace is a two state solution base on equal treatment of people and mutual respect. And Netanyahu’s reply is what exactly? Arming settlers, building even more checkpoints to restrict their freedom of movement in the West bank, arresting even more Palestinians and talking of another military occupation of Gaza and building of another buffer zone from inside Gaza.
So explain to me how is this fair and do you think it would improve the prospects of long lasting peace in the region? It is almost like Likud and the far right parties are using the current conflict for even more polarising of the Israeli society and land grab.
I agree with your analysis of Israel. I don’t see much hope for change there, unfortunately and looks like this sentiment will only grow stronger from now on. However the discussion was around Hamas specifically. They don’t want to live in peace alongside Israel. They completely deny the concept of Israel and will not stop until the last Jew is driven out. Can’t justify that either
You can’t kill an idea, you can replace it with a better alternative, and Hamas is an idea, like an ideological movement that is summarising the general discontent of Palestinian population with the current status quo. Every human being wants to live in peace and prosperity. Politics and religion is usually dividing people.
My point is that this war even if it manages to kill a big chunk of the military wing of Hamas and destroy their weapons, won’t kill the idea and will do quite the opposite by strengthening the resolve of people to continue opposing Israel and support Hamas.
Funnily enough Hamas needs Likud and the other far right factions in the Israelian government to flourish and vice versa. They have formed a symbiotic relationship even though officially they are mortal enemies. But if Israel and Palestine manage to find a recipe for a long standing peace based on equal terms, then Likud and the other far right factions and the terrorist organisations in Palestine will lose a big chunk of their support.
Sadly, I don’t see this happening anytime soon as both parts are already too invested in the current bloodshed. And considering that Israel is a “democratic” country with a far superior military power one is logically expecting that they should be the initiator of a peace process that will try to mend the wounds from the current war. What I am currently seeing is zero interest from Israel to do something like this.
It might be time for Israel to agree with the hostage exchange Hamas put forward a bunch of times and stop genociding the civilian population of Gaza.
Which one ?
The one they put forward less than a week after the attack. Releasing hostages in exchange for concessions from Israel has been the plan all along.
Each side blames the other on why the agreement blew up. Honestly you can choose to believe any side but we won’t know.
1000 convicted terrorists per hostage. Now you see why Israel didn’t agree to it?
“convicted terrorist” doesn’t mean shit when the “convicted terrorists” are literal children.
Children means anyone up to age 19. The US has plenty examples of “children” in that age group committing school shootings. It just happens that in the PA, they’re taught to “go stab a jew” in schools instead.
ah, yes, America, the shining example of how to respect human rights.
In Israel, children are abducted for something as small as throwing a rock at a hmmwv and detained without trial for decades. but tell me more about how israel is actually right.
Those same children are taught in school that Jews should be hated and killed. Tell me how the PA is right?
Yeah. It isn’t that hard. Fuck Hamas
to be fair, the west bank doesn’t have Hamas, and the entire reason Hamas was so successful is that the army had to go guard the Pogrom against the Arabs in the west bank, so how’s that non-Hamas stuff working out?
I mean, fuck Israel too
It blows my mind we’re in a time and place where you get downvoted for wanting terrorism to end.
Also, even if wanting Hamas to surrender is just “wanting terrorism to end”, Hamas surrendering would be the biggest catastrophe to befall the Palestinian people since the Nakba. Israel will, at the very least, make Gaza like the West Bank, likely worse. They’ve already stated they want security control over Gaza, and we all know what that means.
Hamas doesn’t give two shits about the Palestinians under their control. How does being governed by a country that cares for human life worse than being ruled with fear by a terrorist organization that values killing Jews more than your own life?
Look at the West Bank; you’ll find your answer. Then remember that if Hamas surrenders, that’s Gaza’s best-case scenario.
And if Israel surrendered, every single person would be slaughtered.
israel doesn’t care for human life though.
That’s complete bullshit. Israel’s intense care for the lives of their citizens is how we ended up here. In fact if the iron dome wasn’t developed, we’d have gotten to this point even sooner, because protecting Israeli citizens (yes, that includes the Arab citizens as well) is Israel’s #1 priority.
their blatant disregard for human life and human rights begs to differ. hell, there are reports that top brass of the israeli government knew about the attack on october 7 beforehand and allowed it to happen, so they could use it as justification for bombing the shit out of Gaza.
how about wanting State Terrorism to end?
do you know how many people Israel abducts? https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention
I’m happy we’re in a time and place where you get downvoted for wanting Gazans to go back to the pre-war status quo without even freeing their people behind Israeli bars, let alone surrender to Israel and get the West Bank treatment.
You can be both against terrorism and against imperialism.
October 7th wasn’t terrorism. It was military action against a foreign occupier.
You’re sick in the fucking head
You could’ve asked why first. I am not, BTW, defending atrocities committed during October 7th. These are different things.
Your comments say otherwise. Saying two contradictory things doesn’t suddenly make you right.
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I was gonna explain a lot of things, but after seeing your second sentence yeah that’s pointless. I’ll just mention that the UN already condemned Israel for war crimes in Gaza. Israel’s response is neither legal nor required for anything except to keep their brutal occupation going.
At this point you’re nothing better than a terrorist shill. I’ve been seeing your comments for the last week here. You’ve said nothing but misinformation the entire time.
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But what about all the sweet leverage Hamas gets by keeping the hostages!?! Surely that’s more important than the Palestinians!
🤮
Why? They are winning if they don’t lose. If they surrender the israeli terrorists won’t stop their genocide
The only people protecting Gazans now are Hamas in the absence of the secritiy council and whatever power it has. Ironic, sad, but true.
October 7th was wrong, but what would be even more wrong now is to abandon all those Gazans and stop fighting all those Israeli tanks shelling everyone’s home.
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Hmmm i don’t support Hamas.
October 7th was wrong
Correction: Some individual actions taken on October 7th (with no evidence they were Hamas policy) were wrong. October 7th as a whole was resistance against a foreign occupier, which is allowed under international law.
Wow this is a very delusional take. Hamas didn’t rampage into the “Settlements” of land that has been taken, they went deep into Israel. And I don’t think international law allows you to kill or capture civilians or children and hold them for ransom.
They didn’t hold them for ransom. They demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israel, which Israel is detaining in a way that conflicts with international law (unlawful detainment, torture, withllding food, already several prioners have died in Israeli prisons since October 7th, but the correct word is that they were murdered/assassinated by Israel.
International law generally makes exceptions for actions that have military purpose. Israel created a status quo where one of the few things Hamas can do that actually make the lives of Palestinians better is take hostages, so from my understanding it’d be allowed by international law.
Israel was not occupying Gaza, in fact it withdrew its settlements and all army forces in 2005. On October 7th, not a single Israeli soldier was in Gaza.
Thanks. That’s a good explanation of it.
But where does one draw the line between “Individual action” and “battalion action”?
When the atrocity in question was ordered or encouraged by the leadership. The point the blame passes from the individual to the institution is when the institution gets involved in the atrocity. So if Hamas had said “kill civilians” or “rape women” we’d have to blame Hamas for that, but as long as it’s a decision an individual made on their own only the individual bears responsibility.
What’s the standard for this in the U.S.? It reaches only as far up the ladder as anyone can definitively prove. Abu Gharib saw like, what, a lieutenant fired or something. But when it’s “the enemy”, all of a sudden we assume by default the decision came from the highest levels, and it’s carte blanche to wipe out 2.5 million people living in a giant concentration camp, in a supposed attempt to do regime change.
I mean, let’s be honest, this looks like a serious genocide attempt, and Bibi has been saying genocidal things every few days.
The “enemy” in their comment is Hamas. You’re agreeing with them.
Hmmm. Are you replying to the right comment?
What I’m saying is that Bibi and his cabinet made lots of genocidal claims to fully support intent of genocide, and tery are the ones pushing their army to do this.
It’s because they said that we have to assume it comes from above… Well with Bibi we don’t have to assume, he already told us he’s Hitler.
Hamas should surrender.
why? Why shouldn’t Israel just abide by international humanitarian law and stop slaughtering civilians?
And do what instead? Say “oh jee Hamas, you got us!” And continue living with a constant threat over civilian lives???
Nothing will stop Israel except a Palestinian leader who actually stops preaching for violence and “resistance”, and doesn’t fund terror in the region. Meanwhile, 0 Palestinian leaders have done so. And when the Palestinian consensus is “destroy Israel”, why would Israel stop their invasion? They’re objectively evil in Israeli eyes, and Israel has the means to actually properly do something about it.
Actually maybe a third-party governing Gaza would also stop the Israeli invasion. But who tf would wanna take that role.
what about the other side of that coin? why should palestine give up? when they’re being oppressed by a genocidal apartheid state, which steals their land and slaughters their people, why would they give up? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose.
Nothing to gain? What about an actual decent level of living? Palestinians in the west bank aren’t happy, but they’re so much more happy than Palestinians in Gaza.
From their own point of view, Hamas rule brings nothing but destruction. Resisting more just slaps them back tenfold. No one wants that, ever. And if they do, then idk what to say to them. I sympathize with their suffering, but their choice is heavily to blame.
And oh please. Calling Israel a genocidal Apartheid state is exactly the propaganda which will cause more violence in the region. Do you want “justice” or do you want people not dying? Personally I don’t like people dying, so I like to not villainize any side, when both sides have suffered from the other’s aggression. Calling one side genocidal and the other martyrs is exactly why we have this conflict.
Nothing will stop Israel except a Palestinian leader who actually stops preaching for violence and “resistance”, and doesn’t fund terror in the region.
In that case maybe Israel should stop supporting the ones who do against the moderate PNA?
