Maybe because it’s the only way many without generational wealth can afford to live.
people used to look at children as a way to pass on knowledge, culture, adn ofc, genes
nowadays our genes dont matter so much unless youre a super athlete or mega genius, so passing them on seems frivolous to many. then theres the interent, which houses knowledge on damn near everything. so i guess it makes sense why the desire to carry on would be outweighed at this point
Passing on genes sounds like some Nazi shit.
Jessie what the fuck are you talking about
I was gonna say. the phrase “double income no kids” arose in the 90s when “single income + kids” was a possibility.
Honestly at this point there are only a handful of headlines that cover about 90% of news stories:
-Young people ‘choose’ lifestyle choice that was forced upon them by external conditions.
-Young people are ‘killing industry’ that they are not paid enough to even dream of participating in.
-Rich person/people found guilty of or admitted to enormous crime will go unpunished.
-Someones totally unqualified opinion on a subject that we’re reporting as news because they’re rich.
-World ending, shareholders rejoice.Rich people doing stupid things with money because they aren’t being taxed like they should so that the economy actually can survive.
this might be the greatest comment on Lemmy
By choosing, I think we mean that it’s not an affordable luxury to do otherwise
oh trust me, the right wing would LOVE to take your ability to choose to procreate out of your hands completely. Abortion for sure, but also the the night after pill and even birth control. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/04/birth-control-is-next-republicans-abortion.html
I really wish that this was just a joke. Those fascists will take anything they can to make themselves feel powerful.
“Why aren’t the poors having more workers??” - the same people continually reducing the status and security of the working class
If given the option or the opportunity … the wealthy wouldn’t mind the reintroduction of slavery and outright ownership of people
Choosing or forced to choose?
Choosing to not have children is becoming more and more accepted among younger people for a long variety of reasons, among them being climate and economy as well as “not going to ruin my body” and “well i just dont like children”
You pretty much nailed the entire reason for most of my friends and myself (mid to late 20s). We can all afford kids, but it’s just not something anyone desires except for one or two people in our group of 14.
Most of us don’t even dislike kids, but the thought of having our own is undesirable.
I struggle to understand how people can get over how terrifying and unpleasant having children is. Kids can be okay, except when they aren’t, and that’s often.
That is simply not true. Kids can teach you many things about yourself that you never knew you cared about. They open a part of this life you would never see otherwise. They are this thing that loves you no matter what and if you are a good parent you do not take that for granted and give it all you got.
I didn’t want any for many years for all the same reasons as many here. And it changed. And it’s great, for me. But if you choose not to or have doubts, don’t. It’s horrible for the kid.
Another thing that can happen is you can grow up able to see clearly that you’re an obligation for your parents they didn’t want. You feel like they’re always angry with you even if you’re perfectly behaved. Then they tell you they gave up their entire life for you, clearly bitter and regretting that.
There is a non zero chance I could make my kids feel this awful for existing, and that already would be a non starter. But on top of that there’s like 14 other reasons.
I’m not sure what you’re protesting about what I wrote. I didn’t attack you. I just don’t understand how people ignore all the anxiety they will certainly have with kids in addition to all the other additional anxiety if anything about the kid goes especially wrong.
Well this comment at least tells us something about how you might have felt when younger. I did not always see eye to eye with my parents but in the end, I felt like they loved me and the amount of happiness I experienced as a kid is almost immeasurable. I’m on team #nokids, but for a lot of people, the love they can experience through children is unique and powerful, and understanding that is not that much of a struggle for me.
That’s the thing, having kids is a unique experience just like not having kids is a unique experience. Being an individual is fundamentally a unique experience. Yet this whole conversation gets wrapped up in normative language like this which clearly expresses social preference for the former.
When I hear someone say that having children changed them in a profound way, I don’t hear anything other than “climbing a mountain is profound” or “laying on the couch all day is profound.” There is uniqueness and profound cumulative existence baked into to every heartbeat, but apparently a lot of people have trouble with this simple idea.
My comment mentioned nothing about the positive sides to kids. They obviously exist. The point I was making is I am surprised so many people opt into the most anxiety I think you probably can opt into.
I’m good. I’m 40. Every day i despise the idea more.
They are this thing that loves you no matter what Even if that were true, it makes parents sound like they have a god complex that needs to be validated.
You don’t know what you are talking about lol
We didn’t impose it on them. It’s biology. Maybe get some therapy. I’m going to block you. You got a whole cat in a bag vibe that isn’t my jam.
Biology is bullshit. It’s not an excuse. It’s like saying segregation and greed are biology. Like rape and murder are. Negative things exist in our biology and creating other humans for one’s need to get high off of them is one of them i assure you will be widely recognized within the next decade.
It’s because your brain gets flooded with parenting hormones which give you superhuman delusion tolerance for the first few years. That’s why I’m always skeptical when people are like “it’s hard but I can’t describe how wonderful it is!”
Sure Ryan, that’s totally not just the brain worms talking, I’ll stick with dogs for my nurturing serotonin and I refuse to feel bad about it.
That does make a lot of sense
You shouldn’t feel bad about it. Do what you think is right for yourself. On the other hand, you should recognize that you have no idea what being a parent is actually like, which in a sense means that you don’t actually know what you are talking about. It’s life-changing and unlike any imagining.
It’s a life-changing experience that is unlike any imagining. I am a much better person for having had a kid. That said, I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant, which is just to say that it’s definitely not for everyone.
I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant,
That is absolutely baffling to me. I mean changing the first diaper alone would kill both those “Nevers” for me. Then I would imagine 20 times every day for at least 10 years there would be those feelings. Then when they drive. Then go to college. I mean do you ever worry about anything at all?
I feel the same way, but had already had my children at 21 & 23 before I got the chance to understand the options. I love them and don’t regret my choices, but I would have certainly had a life with different focuses.
I’m older, but the majority of people I know that had kids were surprised by the first.
The best thing you can do for the environment as a person in a western country is not have kids.
That’s not the only reason we aren’t having any, but it’s certainly a factor.
Caveat: the Jesus freaks on the right know no such restrictions
That said 100% you do you
Lol, the opening plot of Idiocracy
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Neither, really. More like are choosing not to go into child debt. Having a kid costs more than having a house. Good for this generation for taking control of their reproductive decisions.
But what you’re describing is an economic decision.
Choosing. I hate kids.
Was just going to say that.
Of all my younger siblings/cousins/etc, the only ones with kids were accidents. Only I chose to purposely start a family, and that took me a decade of saving.
Most humans choose to breathe for oxygen, study shows.
Choosing. Def had the option to have kids but decided not to.
Unlike these “reporters”, you know the answer.
“choosing”
- low wages
- no unions
- housing is either a lifetime’s savings for down payment on mortgage or a never ending escalator of rent fees
- states taking reproductive rights away
- states threatening contraception
- climate change dooming the future
- war - war in ukraine, war in palestine, war in africa, civil war being threatened by the chud down the street
Gee Mr Wizard, why don’t millennials want babies instead of avocado toast?
Pretty much
they arent choosing it.
They are being forced into it because its the only fucking way to have a chance at NOT being homeless and crippled.
Oh no, make no mistake, I chose it.
However, even if I wanted them, how the fuck does one even afford them?
Don’t get it twisted, many of us absolutely chose to not have kids because we don’t want them.
You can both be right, you know. Many of us also agree with what this person was saying.
I used to want kids. I will refuse to have kids unless I can afford them, and until I can GUARANTEE that their human rights won’t be stripped away by the whims of stupid people who are completely disconnected from reality. I won’t bring a new life into a world that’s rushing towards climate oblivion, either.
I’ll sterilize myself before I’m ever forced to have kids.
And there is part of the problem in the eyes of those with power… That thought that you have a choice in sterility. A choice to not have kids didn’t used to exist and you attempting to keep warm and have some pleasure basically guaranteed that you would have more eventually. So that must be stripped in order for you to continue the cycle of having kids not by choice and add to the population that gets fucked over.
Agreed. These people are trying to leverage something many of us absolutely aren’t interested in to push for necessities such as fixing inflation, universal Healthcare etc. Except that if those things were fixed it wouldn’t change the birth rate much at all. That’s why Republicans are forcing people to be breeding machines. Educated well off people know better to engage in an activity that is detrimental to their physical and mental health. And making a human means you’re responsible for them until you or they die. That’s the biggest mistake people make. They make a human, then wash their hands of then.
I make ~$200K a year. As a father of 5, I wish I had not had a single one. I love them, but the stress of taking care of them coupled with the future of the planet makes me regret life choices.
I find it interesting that you cite the stress of raising them as a factor in your regret. Could you not tell that was going to be an issue around the time number three came around? That’s not intended to be accusatory btw. I’m genuinely curious.
You incorrectly assume I’m intelligent.
Haha fair enough
Ok not a Java dev but this would explain the excess children (lol)
Oh hell yeah I’ll never pass up an opportunity to shit on a language i don’t use. It’s the programmer way!
Signed, a PHP developer. <3
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Not OP, but I’ve found that the older they get, the harder it gets. Schedules are all over the place, and they start advocating for things they want to do that don’t fit neatly into the family calendar (vs when you were able to choose everything for them).
Expectations for parents have also skyrocketed. Your “best” now is far different than what the 1990s parents were expected to deliver. And, of course, you love them and want to provide them everything they need, so you bend over backwards to make it happen. That’s what society demands, too.
I don’t have as many kids as OP, and I can’t fucking imagine wrangling five in the current world…😳
Maybe they meant it like “there is now stress for helping pay for college at a higher cost than when they were born.” Or being stressed knowing if the family lives in a HCOL area (typically where those salaries are offered), they might not be able to live there as well with the current trends in housing costs.
TLDR: things have changed for the worst for newer generations, parents can see it.
God, I wish I was smart enough to lie this well. No. I like sex, and hate condoms. I’m the dum.
I do too, which is why I was on the table getting a vasectomy before the vernix was dry on our one and only kid lol
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Kids are inherently stressful. They’re like little abusive people who you can’t legally defend yourself against.
He probably doesn’t know what contraception is.
He’s a Java developer
Made a ChildFactory, may as well use it.
I’m sorry man, I assume you have a bit of family support in this regard?
No one should have a child unless they are willing to commit themselves to that child 100%. I have a daughter. She’s the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. And if anyone willingly took substantially less effort than I’ve taken to try to raise her in a safe, healthy environment and prepare her for her future as best I can- fuck you, you should have worn a fucking condom.
No child deserves to be neglected.
Interesting/sad how simply due to circumstance, somebody’s absolute honest best at max effort/sacrifice can still be raising a kid in a favela.
Consider the top vs. bottom billion: I expect the latter half’s kids would appear neglected if they were suddenly transported to the former’s McMansions overnight.
That’s not to say the kisses and the love are any less, but the clothes and the education and the soccer practice? I’d bet certainly.
I hope within by two generations from now this kind of pondering is only possible from a historical perspective. The kids deserve it.
Hence my saying ‘willingly.’ You can’t help being impoverished.
I also have kids and love them dearly. However I think that it is important that parents have their own interests and time for their own lives, independent of their roles as parents. Of course with very young children there’s barely time to sleep, but humans grow up quickly! 😄
I’m not suggesting otherwise. You can put the effort in to do all that I said and still have time to do your own thing.
This is not a controversial opinion.
My wife finally are in a point where we can afford to have children, but we are kinda getting a bit old to have children. So we are also choosing the dual income no children life style,
But a big part of that is our age and how long it took to get to a comfortable place financially.
Now we want to focus on saving for a house and retirement.
dinks
I don’t know what this means.
It’s the acronym for the phrase in the article - “Dual Income No Kids”. Might have been more obvious if it were in caps.
Thanks!!
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How old are you if you don’t mind me asking?
Mid 30s
That’s not old, my man. Many of us are having kids in our 40s.
I’m one right here. Tired? Sure, but they fill our lives. This was 100% the right decision for us, but everyone has their own set of goals
perfectly ok in that range, it starts to get unsafe for the mother after 40 tho
I don’t know about this commenter, but don’t forget that everyone is different.
Hypothetically, you might be good having kids in you thirties, but one or both of them might have a condition or disability that gets worse with time.
I know people in their early 20s with bad arthritis, and a lot of people want to be able to chase after and run around with their kids. Sometimes chronic pain/illness can remove that option.
Oh for sure, I dont think everyone should or can be parents. Im just saying its not necessarily a death knell for parenthood in that age range
What choice do they have if kids are basically unaffordable?
“When we advise clients about having children, we honestly don’t even give them the full real details and the real numbers,” said Shannon McLay, founder of The Financial Gym. “It’s one of those things if you see the math of it all, it might make you decide to not have children.”
what a whole generation of pulling the ladder up behind you will do to a society. Party of family values doing everything they possibly can to destroy familes.
In other words, “we trick our clients who paid us for financial advice into having children they can’t afford”.
Yeah, I hope there’s some more context. That quote makes it sound pretty bad.
people won’t pay to hear ‘don’t have kids’
so they skip that part
Holy shit, what an incredibly unethical thing to do. “We’re lying to the people who come to us for advice because if we told the truth they might make a decision we don’t like.”
Gee, it’s almost like it’s important for the long term success of society to have systems in place that make sure it’s not a burden to create new people to take over for your generation after their bodies are too old and broken to keep working and society functioning.
Then again, the decisions have already been made by the people with the power to make them, and technology/automation are in line to replace workers. They’ll be a little loud and problematic until the numbers naturally even themselves out, but we’ll be left with an enlightened society of capitalist asset owners being supported by a massive technological network.
It would be a shame if a new Luddite movement came and broke the machines putting humans out of work they want to do.
Or give us a universal basic income and let humans do what they want to do to make themselves happy while the machines do all the work.
Makes a fascinating short story:
Jimmy thought his job at the data center was easy, clock in, watch the cameras, do the rounds, clock out. Good pay, low effort…
then 10,000 people showed up with hammers and crow bars. Jimmy was about to have a very bad day.
I so much hope it’s going to be rhe second. I doubt it will 😢
What value is a universal basic income to the shareholders? That is the question to ask in this capitalist hellscape.
I’d say that sometimes it may even be beneficial to shareholders because they will not have to deal with people in the company that are there only to up the workspace numbers. You know, those job positions that only exist because of how wrecked the system is now
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Less of a choice and more of a survival tactic. Plus, my foregone children would thank me.
Those with higher income levels are the ones deciding to have less kids, whereas those with the lowest incomes are the ones having more. Source
If people are being forced into not having children for economic reasons, wouldn’t it be the opposite?
But I don’t disagree about it being in the best interest of my future children not to exist with the way things are heading lol.
The source you linked tells that more developed countries have less kids, which is almost unrelated to how “affordable” having a child is, which infact have the opposite trend.
Here is a source for within the USA.
The more money one makes, the more free they are to make the choice not to have children.
Thanks much better, however “Correlation does not imply causation” which is obvious in this case (and as the source itself say, the correlation is probably about education instead etc). The problem is much more complex and trying to explain it with a simple correlation is a bit naive, however you can’t deny how much of an economic struggle raising a kid is for the average income family…
I never claimed having kids wasn’t a financial endeavor. I’m just pointing out that people with more income have on average less kids… because they do. I didn’t suppose the cause of this correlation at any point. But yes, I’d agree education is a huge part of the cause of this correlation.
Could it be its more lucrative to not have children?
When contraception is expensive, career paths look bleak (or non-existent) and sex is the one fun activity you have… surprisedpikachu.jpg
Put the value back into my income then, ye cunts.
I make the same number as my dad used to. His was a different currency but the number was the same which makes it awfully simple to put everything into perspective.
His house: 350 Mine: a little under half the size: 900
I’m already down 550 in comparison.
His insurance: 90 Mine: 160
I’m down 620.
His medicine cost and doctor visits: basically zero. Mine: 385 and half the medicine comes out of pocket nowadays.
This difference is hard to put into perspectice as the 385 is once a year and medicine depends on the situation.
Him: unemployed wife, groceries cost about 200 for a full month, owns a car and has 4 children.
Me: wife works and has a hobby that makes money, no car because no money left. Groceries: we eat about 2/3rd of what they did and pay 200 a week. No children.
We are down 1220 if we forget about insurance and medicine. I don’t make 1220 more than he did.
Fuck this hellhole, you stole our life and i hope there is a hell for you scumbags.
you stole our life
Don’t blame your dad - however much you resent him it’s not like he has any influence over the economy. Instead blame the super rich who have real influence and are actively pushing policy to widen this social divide.
I doubt he does.
But it is partially their fault: they have the largest political clout by generation so welfare and zoning policies have always suited them at the behest of everyone else.
And even if people don’t have kids, the rich aren’t going to be impacted. They just use immigration as a stop gap until everything is automated away and we see wealth imbalance get taken to 11. I’m talking gated communities everywhere with poverty in-between (e.g South Africa)
You’re choosing to be wilfully ignorant about inflation. You don’t make as much as he did in a real sense.
What’s going on now isn’t inflation. It’s greed.
If only income inflated to match the expenses.
