Countries like Switzerland don’t have mass shootings like the USA, yet they have tons of guns. The lack of mental health support and the orphan crushing machine are a HUGE part of the mass murders here in America.
The rates of gun ownership between Switzerland and the USA are vastly different. USA ownership is almost double that of Switzerland.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912
I’m not denying your take that it’s a multifaceted issue, but equating the gun ownership between Switzerland and the USA doesn’t paint an accurate picture.
Despite the USA having double the gun ownership that Switzerland does, the USA has more than 20 times the number of mass shootings. There’s definitely more to this issue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_Switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
If we’re throwing out Wikipedia links, here are the actual laws in Switzerland, many of which the pro-gun community in America staunchly oppose adopting, including the mandatory military service that would actually qualify gun owners to be part of a “well regulated militia”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzerland
The Swiss also don’t celebrate weapons as much as the US Americans.
I struggle to find the correct word. Celebrate isn’t it, but I’m too tired to think about a better one and I don’t want to start a comment war here. You’ll probably understand what I meant.
The Swiss also have compulsory military service (at least for men) where they theoretically teach you how to use and presumably not be a dummy with your gun.
Also do Switzerland have carry laws? If everyone left their firearms at home it would be much less of an issue too.
Swiss can open carry in hunting areas with a license and allowed to store their own firearms and some duty fireams in their homes. They care more about to control the sales and storage of ammunition moreso than the actual rifles and handguns themselves.
In many states in the USA you can carry your weapon (both open and concealed) to the grocery store. It makes everyone uncomfortable and is super weird. Also most people don’t carry their guns properly and it would take someone about two seconds to steal it.
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Could this compulsory military service also alert authorities to people that aren’t suitable to own private firearms?
You also need a permit to buy a gun. Shall-issue for most of the guns I’d categorize as more reasonable, but still need to put in for the permit. Automatics have quite stringent requirements on their may-issue permits. High-cap magazines are not available. Universal registration & background check and “red flag”-style blocks on any purchases.
Ammo is also included in these rules, essentially.
Second-hand sales require a paper trail conforming to many of these rules with a decade-long statute of limitations to prove legitimate transfer that is also reported to the state authority.
Storage methods are regulated. Failure to report a lost/stolen weapon to police is bad news for you.
You need a permit to carry which is mostly only given to people who have occupational need to carry – like the old NYC law where you have to state a plausible need. Otherwise, when and where you can carry is limited to basically sport or similar events.
And there’s more. Not to mention their culture of training and safety around it because of their military and militia requirements.
I’m all for imposing Swiss-style gun rules on the US. It would restrict guns a lot. The people who appeal to how great they are with guns and how it is “proof” that gun restrictions aren’t a good solution just haven’t even done basic research about what the gun situation actually is in Switzerland.
Glorify?
Fetishize is probably the word you want. Guns aren’t a tool here, they’re a symbol
Flaunt? It really is w divide. We have normal people, some of whom are responsible gun owners but most of whom don’t have guns, and then we have that crowd
Deify. They deify guns.
I agree with you. There is no need for a comment war.
This. I’m a liberal and I definitely think we need tighter restrictions on guns in the U.S., but people today seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever and mass shootings have only been a weekly occurrence for about 10-15 years. It’s not the guns or the gun laws or even mental health issues (depending on how you want to define them); it’s some fucked up aspects of our culture.
It’s multiple issues:
- Lack of access to mental health services.
- 24/7 commercial news geared more towards fear than information with no fair and balanced doctrine for reporting.
- A widening wealth gap depriving those at the bottom of the income ladder the dignity of a stable life.
- Private ownership of said media suppressing unfavourable stories.
- Civil forfeiture and warrior cop training creating a mafia attitude in US Police departments.
- A lack of realisation that the historical context for gun ownership in the US was to keep the natives off the land cliamed by a settler because the British didn’t want to repeat Spain’s mistakes.
- More willing to accept licensing and denial of access to a car as punishment for breaking driving laws despite that the car is more fundamental to existing in modern US than the Gun.
- Treating the constitution like a holy manuscript rather than it’s original purpose of being updated/replaced every 5 to 10 years.
- A broken electoral system in dire need of reform.
- Underfunding education.
- Lobbying so rampant they might as well host the bidding for Washington representatives on eBay.
The list is very very long. The USA’s cultural fabric that is the people’s common heritage is being stretched and torn by those who believe they can make a profit from the scraps.
The USA is a young anglophile country, you’ve only had one civil war, I reckon you’ve got at least another one coming.
More willing to accept licensing and denial of access to a car as punishment for breaking driving laws despite that the car is more fundamental to existing in modern US than the Gun.
Licensing to carry exists in most states, though some have removed that. We also do typically remove access to guns (or at least the CCW depending on state and infraction) as punishment for breaking gun laws.
Agreed. The root cause is multifaceted. People seem to ignore the fact that the shooters are almost 100 percent male, with the vast majority being disaffected loners, white, and young. What has caused these men and boys to fantasize about killing masses of people? It’s far more complicated than folks like to admit. We want a simple scapegoat, so we blame guns.
Using your timeline of mass shooting increases, an immediate reason to consider should be the assault weapon law expiring in 2004. Data would back that up. We haven’t had the same laws forever. https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/06/15/did-the-assault-weapons-ban-of-1994-bring-down-mass-shootings-heres-what-the-data-tells-us/
Your own source shows that mass shootings weren’t as high as they are now prior to the assault weapons ban, thus demonstrating it wasn’t repeal of the law that caused the recent uptick. If it was, we’d see a similar amount of mass shootings prior to its enactment as well.
I’m a liberal and I definitely think we need tighter restrictions on guns in the U.S., but people today seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever
Sure but the same party that works so hard against increased legislation for gun control gutted our mental health infrastructure and votes against funding and rebuilding it at every opportunity. They aren’t interested in solving either end of the problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Health_Systems_Act_of_1980
https://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html
This last one is a ddg search - you can just pick which article you want to read about Republicans voting against mental health funding.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=republicans+vote+against+mental+health+funding
You’re missing my point. Mental health issues aren’t the primary problem when it comes to firearm violence and deaths. Republican resistance to laws that attempt to address mental health issues deserves pointing out, but not so much in this context, because that’s not the main issue at hand. Liberals can be commended for attempting to do something about the problem more than Republicans are, but what I’ve seen of their views on the topic indicates to me that they too are missing the point. The problem isn’t guns or severe psychiatric problems; there’s a cultural element that no one (including Democrats, for some reason) aren’t willing to address. Until we identify and focus on the actual problem, no progress will be made, because we’ll just continue to fight about stuff that isn’t that relevant.
there’s a cultural element
Yup, it’s the sick concept of firearms culture, where holding a weapon becomes a character trait and the right to military arms is somehow necessary to protect one’s home. It’s fucking deranged.
seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever
this completely disregards the Assault Weapons ban and it’s repeal. Which match with the numbers in a stark manner.
Okay fine, it’s some fucked up aspect of American culture. Honestly, blame it on whatever you want because until that problem is fixed, the current gun laws are clearly inadequate and need to be immediately addressed.
They can have their dogshit gun laws back when they’ve finished solving the problem, be it mental health or Marilyn Manson.
They can have their dogshit gun laws back when they’ve finished solving the problem
You don’t mean that though. No liberals do. That’s why conservatives won’t budge on this issue, because they know whatever ground they give will never return and liberals will always be pushing for more.
And honestly, the mass shooting stuff is our best chance at convincing conservatives to change, because they’re actually occasionally affected by that crap. Even with the increases in mass shootings, the vast majority of gun violence is down to crime, which mostly affects poor, non-White people living in urban areas.
This issue is really complex. It’s affected by different cultures in the U.S., political alignments, demographics and wealth levels. The mental health stuff is only really relevant if you’re talking about how psychological and sociological issues contribute to extremism and social isolation, but most people just picture some schizo on a bad day, which is a microscopic drop in the bucket (and most people with severe mental illnesses like schizophrenia are not actually vioelnt, that’s a bad stereotype).
I understand why most liberals want to get rid of guns; it’s just that that’s not actually the problem, and conservatives know it, so they fight back hard and we get nowhere. Sadly, I think more conservatives have to become victims before there’s any traction in terms of putting appropriate safety measures in place that still afford conservatives the freedom to practice their favorite hobby.
So it goes. Meanwhile, we’re killing the planet. Small potatoes in the long run…
You don’t mean that though. No liberals do. That’s why conservatives won’t budge on this issue, because they know whatever ground they give will never return and liberals will always be pushing for more.
Conservatives won’t budge on this issue because they’re cunts. They don’t genuinely believe the “mental health” excuse and will actively fight any healthcare reforms because they will cost money that they could be shoving into the pockets of the lobby groups that own them.
The entire purpose of the line is to create the illusion of being reasonable by pretending they’d entertain the idea of gun control if only these damn progressives would meet their impossible requirements first.
We are at least 100 years from a mental healthcare system that is capable of quickly and cleanly curing “I want to murder people”, let alone one that is free and available to everyone (even if they don’t want help).
There’s 20,000 mass shootings and 100,000 preventable deaths between us and that bullshit goal but Republicans couldn’t care less. The voters will have their guns and the politicians will have the $1.6 billion dollars the lobbyists slipped in their pockets.
Even with the increases in mass shootings, the vast majority of gun violence is down to crime, which mostly affects poor, non-White people living in urban areas.
That’s not how their cult works. When children survive school shootings and speak out against ineffective gun laws, the pro-gun community unite to spit on them.
Not only did a legal gun owner put them through the most traumatic thing they’ll ever experience, more legal gun owners queue up to abuse them for having the gall to be traumatised.
This issue is really complex
It genuinely isn’t, the pro-gun community just works hard to ensure the issue is so wrapped up in bad-faith bullshit that no progress is made.
They’ve spent decades lying and pretending they alone know the “one true cause” of gun violence, finally settling on “mental health” so they didn’t have to give up their video games and rock music either.
The whole “cause vs symptom” argument is nothing more than a way to waste more time. They’re fully aware that not only does it not matter, it’s not even how doctors work – they’d lose their license immediately if you turned up with a clearly broken arm and they denied you painkillers because “pain is just a symptom” and insisted on checking “the real cause” wasn’t menopause or feline aids first.
So fuck em.
Introduce firearm licenses like the rest of the world, requiring a background check, safety training, mandatory safe storage, gun registration and actual waiting periods.
Make it a felony to buy or sell a firearm without one. Confiscate the guns as evidence of a crime then try them in court. They get their due process and when they’re convicted, they lose their second amendment rights just like every other convicted felon.
If they’d rather follow through on their threats to become domestic terrorists than demonstrate their ability to be the “responsible gun owner” they claim, they can be gunned down by police like every other domestic terrorist.
Since 80% of mass shooters are already legal gun owners, I’m not even sure we’d notice.
Your calm and well-reasoned debate style, free of profanity and name-calling has shown me your infallible wisdom.
LOL, I’m not wasting my time on you. Have a good night.
Oh no, bad words!
your salty language is more than they can handle. another school full of dead kids? price of freedumb.
How do any gun control laws in Switzerland compare to the US?
When there are 24 million guns of that type sold and only a handful used illegally each year, is that really a problem on the manufacturer though?
Seems like the vast, vast, majority of them are used legally or simply not used at all.
But honest question, why do you buy a gun like that if you’re never ever going to use it? For what purpose do people buy these things anyway?
I just read the entire article, and as a left leaning voter, the article was poorly written with factual issues and misinformation.
It now makes me want to buy the Ruger SFAR to protect myself from the violent right wing MAGA morons.
I can’t actually tell if that’s meant to be satire, but I doubt the people upvoting you can either. So just to be safe…
Congratulations, you’ve fallen for the same idiot hero fantasies as the right-wing gun cultists have. The gun lobby wrote a version of them just for you and you swallowed it without a single critical thought.
Do you know who is going to win when you and the MAGA morons face off with your cool guns?
Whoever is the biggest piece of shit, just like always.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The industry’s alpha-male sales pitches promise buyers the power to “control your destiny.” According to law-enforcement records, Card had been haunted by phantom voices — including taunts that he had a “small dick.” The Ruger SFAR, with its thick barrel, is marketed without subtlety as “Bigger and Stronger Where It Needs to Be.”
Wilson Combat sells the “Urban Super Sniper.” Franklin Armory markets assault rifles in its “Militia Series.” An ad from Patriot Ordnance Factory-USA features a hooded man with an AR-15 standing in the ruins of a city, with the tagline “When corrupt politics fail, our guns won’t.”
But it doesn’t take many people to execute a military mission, to shatter families and communities, and create national panic and anxiety.” In the case of Card, Koskoff adds, “He’s one person, one weapon — and the entire state of Maine was frozen.”
(The AR prefix stands for “Armalite Rifle.”) The Pentagon sought an infantry weapon that was light, lethal, and versatile — that could match the “killing power” of the bulky, World War II-era M1 in close combat, but still be capable of “penetrating a steel helmet or standard body armor at 500 yards.”
But in a quest to make the rifle lighter and more maneuverable, it developed the AR-15, with smaller rounds — fired at extraordinary velocity to create “maximum wound effect.” Though marketed today with a cachet of manhood, the military prized the AR platform because its feather weight and minimal recoil were well-suited for the “small stature of the Vietnamese” allies whose “average soldier,” one document stated, “stands five feet tall and weighs 90 pounds.”
The department then sent regional law-enforcement agencies a warning that Card “made threats to shoot up the National Guard armory in Saco” and was “committed over the summer … due to his altered mental health state.” It advised that he should be approached with “extreme caution.”
The original article contains 4,150 words, the summary contains 314 words. Saved 92%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Making Americans suffer the consequences of their sowing FUD for profit is good business.
Their children don’t get mutilated beyond recognition at school, because their children’s schools are very, very expensive.
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Maybe we should hope for a few shootings on expensive boarding schools, then? What a time we live in when you’re Actually wondering if you should wish for a bunch of kids dying gruesome deaths to make things better…
Interesting take on the subject. I can’t wait for the book to be released.
Professor Buzzkill History Podcast: Gun Country: Gun Capitalism, Culture, and Control in Cold War America
Episode webpage: https://www.spreaker.com/user/16373114/gun-country-audio
Media file: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/57535678/gun_country_audio.mp3
The sub-headline of the article claims there is no purpose for “assault weapons” other than killing people.
each designed with a single purpose — to kill lots of people as fast as possible
Is this article trying to tell me I’m using mine wrong? Because I use mine only for things that don’t involve killing people.
Are you telling me this hammer is built for pounding lots of nails? I only use mine for pulling nails and securing staples that have come loose.
What do you use it for?
I think the idea trying to be conveyed is that guns are indeed meant to kill. People use guns for good, like defense, but it is undeniable that the purpose of a gun is to cause death.
Can you tell me what an assault weapons purpose is that isn’t killing
people? Edit: just killing, damage.They are useful for defending a medium sized area, versus pistols which are useful only for defending a small area. They are simply more effective defense machines.
Defending an area by doing what?
I use a butter-knife to open paint cans with, but that’s not what it’s for.
Hey, you’re right. I also use my butter knife for a lot of things other than butter, such as: brie, jelly, jam, nutella, spreading mayo, cutting my over-easy eggs, etc. Yeah, it turns out it’s useful for a lot more than just butter. It’s almost as if it’s a multipurpose tool that has many different and acceptable uses. I think you’re on to something.
What is the gun equivalent of that experience?
Interesting philosophical debate. Is it not for whatever I’m using it for, regardless of its designated purpose? If I have a lighter, and someone asks “what’s that thing for,” and I answer “lighting candles,” am I wrong because the bic was designed with tobacco smokers in mind? Would I have to have answered “to expend and ignite butane” to be correct? If I have a bottle of booze and someone asks what for, am I wrong if I say “Tom’s party” instead of “consumption and subsequent expellation?” I say that butter knife is “for opening paint cans.”
Also, do you have a designated
pooppaint knife, or do you use a random one every time? If it is designated I’d argue that is yet another reason to say it is for opening paint cans.The fact that I have found an alternative purpose for the butter-knife does not satisfy this phrasing from the comment you replied to:
each designed with a single purpose — to kill lots of people as fast as possible
My butter-knife was designed to cut and spread soft food that does not require anything sharper to work with. Those guns are designed and marketed to kill.
By the way, I’m not anti-2A nor anti gun. But I am anti-deflection, among other things. An AR-15 is designed to kill people. Pretending it’s not doesn’t strengthen your position, it makes your argument seem disingenuous.
Oh well my actual argument is “some people need killin’ it’s called self defense.” But I’m more interested in if things are “for” something other than their designation if they’re being used for it and are now designated for it by it’s actual end user.
Thanks for your honesty.
For sure no problem. I’m definitely a proponent of the right to self defense, but also a proponent of imbibing on whatever substances please you so long as you don’t hurt others. Substances which may or may not make one interested in pondering on things like fate even concerning inanimate objects, I suppose.
An AR-15 is a completely modular rifle platform so that you can build it for your needs. Of which yes, building one for killing people is one. But it is definitely not the only one.
For god’s sake, the SFAR and the AR platform ARE NOT ASSAULT RIFLES. It’s so hard to take any writer seriously when they can’t even get the fucking basics straight.
Yall seem to have forgot that the right to bear arms as originally written, was also the responsibility to bear arms. They didn’t have cops. The real root of all these mass shootings is nobody shoots back, all you fuckers are supposed to be armed.
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We license drivers and require training and insurance.
Don’t bother. Check their comment history and just move on. What hurts them most is being ignored like they are in the rest of their life.
Cool…to use the car on public roads…you can also transport them across state lines with no issue.
I can buy a car with cash, from private hands, across state lines, have it shipped directly to me, and I don’t have to insure it nor do I need a license for it…also can buy one at any age.
So trying to compare gun ownership with owning a car is naive.
But you can’t USE that car legally without a license or insurance. Stop being daft.
A car’s design intent isn’t to kill. A rifle’s is
Tell that to the 40k+ people who are killed every year in the USA from basically negligent people driving (large portion of that being alcohol related). My guns have never taken anyone’s life, and the odds of them doing so is so damn small, that I’d probably win the lottery before they’re used against another human.
Tell that to the 40k+ people who are killed every year in the USA from basically negligent people driving
Drunk driving and our terrible drinking culture is an entirely different crisis altogether. I don’t understand why you’re trying to draw parallels here (no matter how weak)? Both are bad things.
My guns have never taken anyone’s life
Neither have mine but I don’t have my head so far in the sand to not understand that guns are designed to kill things.
Don’t bother. Check their comment history and just move on. What hurts them most is being ignored like they are in the rest of their life.
I don’t offer pole-lease a lot of operating room emotionally in the US.
But I do think that pole-leasing in the US must feel different to lots of other places.
Just so many freaking guns with all types of people. And it makes even a traffic stop just as dangerous as going to a domestic dispute or an armed robbery. Fucking guns.
That is not at all true. Being a cop in the US rarely crosses the line into the top ten most dangerous professions. The top ten most dangerous professions include being a fisherman, being a garbage colllector, being a professional driver, things like that. And just for some more fun, the danger levels of these jobs are radically skewed.
Here’s a report on job related fatalities in the US. I’m not sure why fishermen aren’t included in this particular one as they normally top these lists, but it says they selected from about 250 professions so they might have just been excluded.
In any case, the list starts with loggers at over 100 per 100k and airline pilots at over 50 per 100k. Scroll down past farmers, delivery drivers, construction workers, landscapers, and mechanics, and eventually you’ll find police at position 22, with 14 per 100k. These numbers remain pretty constant year to year, with the exception of Covid related fatalities.
The problem is that there is a specific school of training for police that amps up their perception of danger far above what reality actually shows. They escalate encounters which increases both the chance of themselves bringing injured and very much the chance that the person they encounter will be injured or killed.
It doesn’t matter that being a cop is less dangerous than other jobs, it matters that being a cop is more dangerous than in other countries.
That American liberals focus on rifles in regards to gun violence more than 1/20 as much as they do handguns or 1.75x as much as the president’s recommended shotgun, nevermind the fervor for AWBs, betray the lack of concern and understanding of the issues truly driving America’s culture of violence beyond “big ones are scarier”.
All compounded by their laws’ universal exemptions for police current and former, on-and-off-the-clock demonstrating no fear of arming the most violent among us as long as they swear fealty to minority oppression and dissident suppression in the name of maintaining capital’s status quo, sleeping sound assuming those barrels won’t turn inwards towards them. Hell, that the fight against gun violence now includes banning armor to protect oneself from it shows how important it is that we be obliged to let them indulge.
The body armor regulations are the real WTF for me. It’s just a bold faced admission that they (i.e. the police and government) don’t like the notion that maybe the police can’t just roll up and kill you whenever they want.
The other reiteration I’ll add to your point about police exemptions is (in case anyone missed the “former”) that most of these bans and gun regulations not only exempt the police, they also exempt retired policemen. So if these guys are off the force, why do they need machine guns, switchblades, big magazines, > .50 caliber, etc., etc., etc., exactly?
It’s the same reason the FAA has such stringent safety regulations for aircraft, while tens of thousands of people die in traffic accidents every year: Mass shootings are huge amounts of death and also rare, compared to crimes of passion or suicides by gun.
The problem is that to solve any of these problems will involve two things that Republicans hate: Providing social services and confiscating guns from people who shouldn’t have them. Both of those are far less likely to pass than a simple ban on a small subset of guns.
So until Republicans put up or shut up about “it’s mental health” nothing will get done.
It’s a social issue not a gun issue. Shitty parents, shitty economics, shitty education and a shitty social structure are what makes America a higher crime nation in general and a higher gun crime nation specifically.
It’s a gun issue. There’s poor people in other countries, too.
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What other country, at least Western country, has, per capita, explosives or poisonings or things like that at the level of murder as the U.S.?
Third world shitholes maybe. I’m sure it sucks to live in Syria.
Third world shitholes maybe
Ooof bud goddamn.
Exactly, if a country is filled with rocks there will be more rock related deaths but a country that is filled with rocks but is effectively governed and educated will have fewer.
I imagine people are going to claim me to be against gun control but that isn’t true, I’m for reasonable gun control. License, register educate and own a tank for all I fuckin care, a big part of the issue is they’re less controlled than my what 3000lb Honda Civic that could run through a crowd at 100+ and do the same damage. Most people aren’t going to use their car as a weapon because it’s attached to them, the same would apply to guns.
Sure, just not with the same access and instead other crimes are more prolific and arguably more heinous. How many cases of acid attacks happen in the us every year adjusted to population? Now how many for say India or for instance England.
Nah different. Acid attacks are most normally done towards women as a form of punishment. Not intended to kill.
Obviously violence will happen. But why are you ever arguing to make the violence easier?
If there was one item you could remove from society that truthfully they don’t need, and acid attacks wouldn’t happen. Wouldn’t you do that? Especially since acid attacks are so awful?
It’s one example, notably stabbings are higher in basically every other county by orders of magnitude.
It’s no easier to get a gun than a car, one just happens to be easily and effectively tracked back to the owner.
If we’re doing theoreticals that item would be ignorance.
we aren’t doing theoreticals? this is about guns.
so you agree then removing guns would help resolve America’s issues with gun violence
A knife can kill one person per minute. An AR-15 can kill dozens within that same time.
It’s a false equivalency fallacy.
Not at all true, swords are still an execution method and I can guarantee you it doesn’t take half a minute let alone a minute.
It isn’t, but hyperbole is your path to tread if it makes you happy I suppose.
You are actually proposing that one idiot with a sword can slaughter dozens of people in less than a minute. LOL
It’s time to turn off your video game and touch grass.
