Countries like Switzerland don’t have mass shootings like the USA, yet they have tons of guns. The lack of mental health support and the orphan crushing machine are a HUGE part of the mass murders here in America.
I’m not denying your take that it’s a multifaceted issue, but equating the gun ownership between Switzerland and the USA doesn’t paint an accurate picture.
Despite the USA having double the gun ownership that Switzerland does, the USA has more than 20 times the number of mass shootings. There’s definitely more to this issue:
If we’re throwing out Wikipedia links, here are the actual laws in Switzerland, many of which the pro-gun community in America staunchly oppose adopting, including the mandatory military service that would actually qualify gun owners to be part of a “well regulated militia”.
The Swiss also don’t celebrate weapons as much as the US Americans.
I struggle to find the correct word. Celebrate isn’t it, but I’m too tired to think about a better one and I don’t want to start a comment war here. You’ll probably understand what I meant.
The Swiss also have compulsory military service (at least for men) where they theoretically teach you how to use and presumably not be a dummy with your gun.
Swiss can open carry in hunting areas with a license and allowed to store their own firearms and some duty fireams in their homes. They care more about to control the sales and storage of ammunition moreso than the actual rifles and handguns themselves.
In many states in the USA you can carry your weapon (both open and concealed) to the grocery store. It makes everyone uncomfortable and is super weird. Also most people don’t carry their guns properly and it would take someone about two seconds to steal it.
You also need a permit to buy a gun. Shall-issue for most of the guns I’d categorize as more reasonable, but still need to put in for the permit. Automatics have quite stringent requirements on their may-issue permits. High-cap magazines are not available. Universal registration & background check and “red flag”-style blocks on any purchases.
Ammo is also included in these rules, essentially.
Second-hand sales require a paper trail conforming to many of these rules with a decade-long statute of limitations to prove legitimate transfer that is also reported to the state authority.
Storage methods are regulated. Failure to report a lost/stolen weapon to police is bad news for you.
You need a permit to carry which is mostly only given to people who have occupational need to carry – like the old NYC law where you have to state a plausible need. Otherwise, when and where you can carry is limited to basically sport or similar events.
And there’s more. Not to mention their culture of training and safety around it because of their military and militia requirements.
I’m all for imposing Swiss-style gun rules on the US. It would restrict guns a lot. The people who appeal to how great they are with guns and how it is “proof” that gun restrictions aren’t a good solution just haven’t even done basic research about what the gun situation actually is in Switzerland.
Flaunt? It really is w divide. We have normal people, some of whom are responsible gun owners but most of whom don’t have guns, and then we have that crowd
This. I’m a liberal and I definitely think we need tighter restrictions on guns in the U.S., but people today seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever and mass shootings have only been a weekly occurrence for about 10-15 years. It’s not the guns or the gun laws or even mental health issues (depending on how you want to define them); it’s some fucked up aspects of our culture.
24/7 commercial news geared more towards fear than information with no fair and balanced doctrine for reporting.
A widening wealth gap depriving those at the bottom of the income ladder the dignity of a stable life.
Private ownership of said media suppressing unfavourable stories.
Civil forfeiture and warrior cop training creating a mafia attitude in US Police departments.
A lack of realisation that the historical context for gun ownership in the US was to keep the natives off the land cliamed by a settler because the British didn’t want to repeat Spain’s mistakes.
More willing to accept licensing and denial of access to a car as punishment for breaking driving laws despite that the car is more fundamental to existing in modern US than the Gun.
Treating the constitution like a holy manuscript rather than it’s original purpose of being updated/replaced every 5 to 10 years.
A broken electoral system in dire need of reform.
Underfunding education.
Lobbying so rampant they might as well host the bidding for Washington representatives on eBay.
The list is very very long. The USA’s cultural fabric that is the people’s common heritage is being stretched and torn by those who believe they can make a profit from the scraps.
The USA is a young anglophile country, you’ve only had one civil war, I reckon you’ve got at least another one coming.
More willing to accept licensing and denial of access to a car as punishment for breaking driving laws despite that the car is more fundamental to existing in modern US than the Gun.
Licensing to carry exists in most states, though some have removed that. We also do typically remove access to guns (or at least the CCW depending on state and infraction) as punishment for breaking gun laws.
Agreed. The root cause is multifaceted. People seem to ignore the fact that the shooters are almost 100 percent male, with the vast majority being disaffected loners, white, and young. What has caused these men and boys to fantasize about killing masses of people? It’s far more complicated than folks like to admit. We want a simple scapegoat, so we blame guns.
Your own source shows that mass shootings weren’t as high as they are now prior to the assault weapons ban, thus demonstrating it wasn’t repeal of the law that caused the recent uptick. If it was, we’d see a similar amount of mass shootings prior to its enactment as well.
I’m a liberal and I definitely think we need tighter restrictions on guns in the U.S., but people today seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever
Sure but the same party that works so hard against increased legislation for gun control gutted our mental health infrastructure and votes against funding and rebuilding it at every opportunity. They aren’t interested in solving either end of the problem.
You’re missing my point. Mental health issues aren’t the primary problem when it comes to firearm violence and deaths. Republican resistance to laws that attempt to address mental health issues deserves pointing out, but not so much in this context, because that’s not the main issue at hand. Liberals can be commended for attempting to do something about the problem more than Republicans are, but what I’ve seen of their views on the topic indicates to me that they too are missing the point. The problem isn’t guns or severe psychiatric problems; there’s a cultural element that no one (including Democrats, for some reason) aren’t willing to address. Until we identify and focus on the actual problem, no progress will be made, because we’ll just continue to fight about stuff that isn’t that relevant.
Yup, it’s the sick concept of firearms culture, where holding a weapon becomes a character trait and the right to military arms is somehow necessary to protect one’s home. It’s fucking deranged.
Okay fine, it’s some fucked up aspect of American culture. Honestly, blame it on whatever you want because until that problem is fixed, the current gun laws are clearly inadequate and need to be immediately addressed.
They can have their dogshit gun laws back when they’ve finished solving the problem, be it mental health or Marilyn Manson.
They can have their dogshit gun laws back when they’ve finished solving the problem
You don’t mean that though. No liberals do. That’s why conservatives won’t budge on this issue, because they know whatever ground they give will never return and liberals will always be pushing for more.
And honestly, the mass shooting stuff is our best chance at convincing conservatives to change, because they’re actually occasionally affected by that crap. Even with the increases in mass shootings, the vast majority of gun violence is down to crime, which mostly affects poor, non-White people living in urban areas.
This issue is really complex. It’s affected by different cultures in the U.S., political alignments, demographics and wealth levels. The mental health stuff is only really relevant if you’re talking about how psychological and sociological issues contribute to extremism and social isolation, but most people just picture some schizo on a bad day, which is a microscopic drop in the bucket (and most people with severe mental illnesses like schizophrenia are not actually vioelnt, that’s a bad stereotype).
I understand why most liberals want to get rid of guns; it’s just that that’s not actually the problem, and conservatives know it, so they fight back hard and we get nowhere. Sadly, I think more conservatives have to become victims before there’s any traction in terms of putting appropriate safety measures in place that still afford conservatives the freedom to practice their favorite hobby.
So it goes. Meanwhile, we’re killing the planet. Small potatoes in the long run…
You don’t mean that though. No liberals do. That’s why conservatives won’t budge on this issue, because they know whatever ground they give will never return and liberals will always be pushing for more.
Conservatives won’t budge on this issue because they’re cunts. They don’t genuinely believe the “mental health” excuse and will actively fight any healthcare reforms because they will cost money that they could be shoving into the pockets of the lobby groups that own them.
The entire purpose of the line is to create the illusion of being reasonable by pretending they’d entertain the idea of gun control if only these damn progressives would meet their impossible requirements first.
We are at least 100 years from a mental healthcare system that is capable of quickly and cleanly curing “I want to murder people”, let alone one that is free and available to everyone (even if they don’t want help).
There’s 20,000 mass shootings and 100,000 preventable deaths between us and that bullshit goal but Republicans couldn’t care less. The voters will have their guns and the politicians will have the $1.6 billion dollars the lobbyists slipped in their pockets.
Even with the increases in mass shootings, the vast majority of gun violence is down to crime, which mostly affects poor, non-White people living in urban areas.
That’s not how their cult works. When children survive school shootings and speak out against ineffective gun laws, the pro-gun community unite to spit on them.
Not only did a legal gun owner put them through the most traumatic thing they’ll ever experience, more legal gun owners queue up to abuse them for having the gall to be traumatised.
This issue is really complex
It genuinely isn’t, the pro-gun community just works hard to ensure the issue is so wrapped up in bad-faith bullshit that no progress is made.
They’ve spent decades lying and pretending they alone know the “one true cause” of gun violence, finally settling on “mental health” so they didn’t have to give up their video games and rock music either.
The whole “cause vs symptom” argument is nothing more than a way to waste more time. They’re fully aware that not only does it not matter, it’s not even how doctors work – they’d lose their license immediately if you turned up with a clearly broken arm and they denied you painkillers because “pain is just a symptom” and insisted on checking “the real cause” wasn’t menopause or feline aids first.
So fuck em.
Introduce firearm licenses like the rest of the world, requiring a background check, safety training, mandatory safe storage, gun registration and actual waiting periods.
Make it a felony to buy or sell a firearm without one. Confiscate the guns as evidence of a crime then try them in court. They get their due process and when they’re convicted, they lose their second amendment rights just like every other convicted felon.
If they’d rather follow through on their threats to become domestic terrorists than demonstrate their ability to be the “responsible gun owner” they claim, they can be gunned down by police like every other domestic terrorist.
Since 80% of mass shooters are already legal gun owners, I’m not even sure we’d notice.
Countries like Switzerland don’t have mass shootings like the USA, yet they have tons of guns. The lack of mental health support and the orphan crushing machine are a HUGE part of the mass murders here in America.
The rates of gun ownership between Switzerland and the USA are vastly different. USA ownership is almost double that of Switzerland.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912
I’m not denying your take that it’s a multifaceted issue, but equating the gun ownership between Switzerland and the USA doesn’t paint an accurate picture.
Despite the USA having double the gun ownership that Switzerland does, the USA has more than 20 times the number of mass shootings. There’s definitely more to this issue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_Switzerland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
If we’re throwing out Wikipedia links, here are the actual laws in Switzerland, many of which the pro-gun community in America staunchly oppose adopting, including the mandatory military service that would actually qualify gun owners to be part of a “well regulated militia”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Switzerland
The Swiss also don’t celebrate weapons as much as the US Americans.
I struggle to find the correct word. Celebrate isn’t it, but I’m too tired to think about a better one and I don’t want to start a comment war here. You’ll probably understand what I meant.
The Swiss also have compulsory military service (at least for men) where they theoretically teach you how to use and presumably not be a dummy with your gun.
Also do Switzerland have carry laws? If everyone left their firearms at home it would be much less of an issue too.
Swiss can open carry in hunting areas with a license and allowed to store their own firearms and some duty fireams in their homes. They care more about to control the sales and storage of ammunition moreso than the actual rifles and handguns themselves.
In many states in the USA you can carry your weapon (both open and concealed) to the grocery store. It makes everyone uncomfortable and is super weird. Also most people don’t carry their guns properly and it would take someone about two seconds to steal it.
deleted by creator
Could this compulsory military service also alert authorities to people that aren’t suitable to own private firearms?
You also need a permit to buy a gun. Shall-issue for most of the guns I’d categorize as more reasonable, but still need to put in for the permit. Automatics have quite stringent requirements on their may-issue permits. High-cap magazines are not available. Universal registration & background check and “red flag”-style blocks on any purchases.
Ammo is also included in these rules, essentially.
Second-hand sales require a paper trail conforming to many of these rules with a decade-long statute of limitations to prove legitimate transfer that is also reported to the state authority.
Storage methods are regulated. Failure to report a lost/stolen weapon to police is bad news for you.
You need a permit to carry which is mostly only given to people who have occupational need to carry – like the old NYC law where you have to state a plausible need. Otherwise, when and where you can carry is limited to basically sport or similar events.
And there’s more. Not to mention their culture of training and safety around it because of their military and militia requirements.
I’m all for imposing Swiss-style gun rules on the US. It would restrict guns a lot. The people who appeal to how great they are with guns and how it is “proof” that gun restrictions aren’t a good solution just haven’t even done basic research about what the gun situation actually is in Switzerland.
Glorify?
Fetishize is probably the word you want. Guns aren’t a tool here, they’re a symbol
Deify. They deify guns.
I agree with you. There is no need for a comment war.
Flaunt? It really is w divide. We have normal people, some of whom are responsible gun owners but most of whom don’t have guns, and then we have that crowd
This. I’m a liberal and I definitely think we need tighter restrictions on guns in the U.S., but people today seem to have forgotten that we’ve had essentially the same gun laws for forever and mass shootings have only been a weekly occurrence for about 10-15 years. It’s not the guns or the gun laws or even mental health issues (depending on how you want to define them); it’s some fucked up aspects of our culture.
It’s multiple issues:
The list is very very long. The USA’s cultural fabric that is the people’s common heritage is being stretched and torn by those who believe they can make a profit from the scraps.
The USA is a young anglophile country, you’ve only had one civil war, I reckon you’ve got at least another one coming.
Licensing to carry exists in most states, though some have removed that. We also do typically remove access to guns (or at least the CCW depending on state and infraction) as punishment for breaking gun laws.
Agreed. The root cause is multifaceted. People seem to ignore the fact that the shooters are almost 100 percent male, with the vast majority being disaffected loners, white, and young. What has caused these men and boys to fantasize about killing masses of people? It’s far more complicated than folks like to admit. We want a simple scapegoat, so we blame guns.
Using your timeline of mass shooting increases, an immediate reason to consider should be the assault weapon law expiring in 2004. Data would back that up. We haven’t had the same laws forever. https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/06/15/did-the-assault-weapons-ban-of-1994-bring-down-mass-shootings-heres-what-the-data-tells-us/
Your own source shows that mass shootings weren’t as high as they are now prior to the assault weapons ban, thus demonstrating it wasn’t repeal of the law that caused the recent uptick. If it was, we’d see a similar amount of mass shootings prior to its enactment as well.
Sure but the same party that works so hard against increased legislation for gun control gutted our mental health infrastructure and votes against funding and rebuilding it at every opportunity. They aren’t interested in solving either end of the problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Health_Systems_Act_of_1980
https://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html
This last one is a ddg search - you can just pick which article you want to read about Republicans voting against mental health funding.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=republicans+vote+against+mental+health+funding
You’re missing my point. Mental health issues aren’t the primary problem when it comes to firearm violence and deaths. Republican resistance to laws that attempt to address mental health issues deserves pointing out, but not so much in this context, because that’s not the main issue at hand. Liberals can be commended for attempting to do something about the problem more than Republicans are, but what I’ve seen of their views on the topic indicates to me that they too are missing the point. The problem isn’t guns or severe psychiatric problems; there’s a cultural element that no one (including Democrats, for some reason) aren’t willing to address. Until we identify and focus on the actual problem, no progress will be made, because we’ll just continue to fight about stuff that isn’t that relevant.
Yup, it’s the sick concept of firearms culture, where holding a weapon becomes a character trait and the right to military arms is somehow necessary to protect one’s home. It’s fucking deranged.
this completely disregards the Assault Weapons ban and it’s repeal. Which match with the numbers in a stark manner.
Okay fine, it’s some fucked up aspect of American culture. Honestly, blame it on whatever you want because until that problem is fixed, the current gun laws are clearly inadequate and need to be immediately addressed.
They can have their dogshit gun laws back when they’ve finished solving the problem, be it mental health or Marilyn Manson.
You don’t mean that though. No liberals do. That’s why conservatives won’t budge on this issue, because they know whatever ground they give will never return and liberals will always be pushing for more.
And honestly, the mass shooting stuff is our best chance at convincing conservatives to change, because they’re actually occasionally affected by that crap. Even with the increases in mass shootings, the vast majority of gun violence is down to crime, which mostly affects poor, non-White people living in urban areas.
This issue is really complex. It’s affected by different cultures in the U.S., political alignments, demographics and wealth levels. The mental health stuff is only really relevant if you’re talking about how psychological and sociological issues contribute to extremism and social isolation, but most people just picture some schizo on a bad day, which is a microscopic drop in the bucket (and most people with severe mental illnesses like schizophrenia are not actually vioelnt, that’s a bad stereotype).
I understand why most liberals want to get rid of guns; it’s just that that’s not actually the problem, and conservatives know it, so they fight back hard and we get nowhere. Sadly, I think more conservatives have to become victims before there’s any traction in terms of putting appropriate safety measures in place that still afford conservatives the freedom to practice their favorite hobby.
So it goes. Meanwhile, we’re killing the planet. Small potatoes in the long run…
Conservatives won’t budge on this issue because they’re cunts. They don’t genuinely believe the “mental health” excuse and will actively fight any healthcare reforms because they will cost money that they could be shoving into the pockets of the lobby groups that own them.
The entire purpose of the line is to create the illusion of being reasonable by pretending they’d entertain the idea of gun control if only these damn progressives would meet their impossible requirements first.
We are at least 100 years from a mental healthcare system that is capable of quickly and cleanly curing “I want to murder people”, let alone one that is free and available to everyone (even if they don’t want help).
There’s 20,000 mass shootings and 100,000 preventable deaths between us and that bullshit goal but Republicans couldn’t care less. The voters will have their guns and the politicians will have the $1.6 billion dollars the lobbyists slipped in their pockets.
That’s not how their cult works. When children survive school shootings and speak out against ineffective gun laws, the pro-gun community unite to spit on them.
Not only did a legal gun owner put them through the most traumatic thing they’ll ever experience, more legal gun owners queue up to abuse them for having the gall to be traumatised.
It genuinely isn’t, the pro-gun community just works hard to ensure the issue is so wrapped up in bad-faith bullshit that no progress is made.
They’ve spent decades lying and pretending they alone know the “one true cause” of gun violence, finally settling on “mental health” so they didn’t have to give up their video games and rock music either.
The whole “cause vs symptom” argument is nothing more than a way to waste more time. They’re fully aware that not only does it not matter, it’s not even how doctors work – they’d lose their license immediately if you turned up with a clearly broken arm and they denied you painkillers because “pain is just a symptom” and insisted on checking “the real cause” wasn’t menopause or feline aids first.
So fuck em.
Introduce firearm licenses like the rest of the world, requiring a background check, safety training, mandatory safe storage, gun registration and actual waiting periods.
Make it a felony to buy or sell a firearm without one. Confiscate the guns as evidence of a crime then try them in court. They get their due process and when they’re convicted, they lose their second amendment rights just like every other convicted felon.
If they’d rather follow through on their threats to become domestic terrorists than demonstrate their ability to be the “responsible gun owner” they claim, they can be gunned down by police like every other domestic terrorist.
Since 80% of mass shooters are already legal gun owners, I’m not even sure we’d notice.
Your calm and well-reasoned debate style, free of profanity and name-calling has shown me your infallible wisdom.
LOL, I’m not wasting my time on you. Have a good night.
Oh no, bad words!
your salty language is more than they can handle. another school full of dead kids? price of freedumb.
How do any gun control laws in Switzerland compare to the US?