- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers
“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.
When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”
Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.
“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.
But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”
You must log in or register to comment.
I feel like a lot of people confuse feminism for straight up misandry. #killallmen? #maletears? These were started by so called “feminists” but this is the definition of misandry.
And people wonder why young men don’t like feminism when this might have been their only exposure to it.
George Orwell, before he wrote 1984, wrote a treatise on the weaponiziation of language. It seems like he was right to warn people.
To clarify my post: the thought of what the word “feminism” or “feminist”, etc could be twisted into, reminded me of Orwell’s treatise, and how someone could easily get it in their heads that feminists have an overarching agenda to feminize everyone,. I’d imagine this is especially true for young boys,/menn. The anti-trans and anti gay movement or has pretty much always been framed that way, like the existence of them is going to affect Cis people or some other nonsense that is most assuredly a talking point of the alt right and GOP,. This becomes even easier to achieve if bad actors are being depiberately obtuse to manipulate a populace of young and misguided men, who’ve been left by the wayside by earlier generations who have regressive, “fuck you, I’ve got mine” attitudes.
And how much of that is actually created to stoke anti-feminist attitudes?
Almost none of it is created to stoke anti-feminist attitudes, but it is certainly spread to do so.
There was this great tumblr post a couple years ago that I can’t seem to find anymore about how when feminists spread phrases like ‘all men are trash’, even if in context it doesn’t seem offensive or bigoted, people who dislike feminism will spread it to people offended by it without the additional context and say “look, see! Feminists hate all men! They hate you! Why would you as a man want to help people who hate you unconditionally?!”, and unfortunately the people most vulnerable to that type of manipulation are teenage boys, who aren’t exactly likely to seek out the context that’s been removed
I agree with most things you wrote, but one thing confuses me. You seem to suggest that writing ‘all men are thrash’ is ok in some contexts, but when spread without that context can radicalize boys?
The problem is that people aren’t familiar with what feminism actually is, so that leaves room for that kind of nuttery to get pushed.
There was a video awhile back of a “feminist” combating the practice of “manspreading” on trains by dumping water mixed with bleach onto men’s crotches. Outage naturally ensued, but later it was revealed to be a Russian psyop.
The group’s website claimed the video was designed to provoke a backlash against feminism and further social division in Western countries.
So, yeah, some of this stuff is manufactured to produce rage and sow division. How much? Who knows?
Of course, we both understand how “all men are trash” could be said without bigotry within the right context, but for everyone else that doesn’t understand, would someone mind explaining or clarifying?
Gladly! I’ll use an example that I myself witnessed (and helped pull me out of the alt right pipeline, funnily enough) but unfortunately no longer have the link to corroborate my story, as it was deleted by the original post author some time afterwards, I’ll also include a timeline of how it gets into the right wing circles and gets spread around, bolded part for those who just want to know the context:
A young feminist makes a post on a personal blog that includes the text “all men are trash” as part of a larger critique on masculine culture and how it negatively everyone, including men. IIRC it was something like “all men are trash, they do bad things [other examples, leading paragraph type stuff]” and then continues in the next couple of lines “That’s what men are supposed to be and are lead to be under a patriarchy, but these values are harmful to everyone, them included, that’s why the men who don’t end up like this, and end up kind and nice, are demonized by those men who did end up evil and cruel, they disprove the need for a patriarchy, [the rest of the article]” (again, this is just what I remember, it may not be fully correct)
Effectively, the author was pointing out that a patriarchal masculine society demonizes men who are kind and help others, while rewarding men who are ruthless and cruel, with the statement “all men are trash” probably being used as an inflammatory statement to make the reader keep reading.*
At some point in the following year, someone in the alt right circle of twitter picks up on this blog and screenshots the paragraph with “all men are trash” and some other minor details that don’t include the part about how the feminist actually critiques the negative influences on men
This screenshot then spreads to right wing indoctrinators, who happily run with it and use to to paint a picture of how feminists hate all men and think they are trash, so as a man you shouldn’t be a feminist, and should hate feminists because they hate you!
Fringe right wing content creators see the indoctrinators takes on this and edit it together with similar examples, some of which are genuine ‘hate all men’ people, others are also taken out of context.
Right wing & right wing adjacent content creators release videos using the edited content to make videos with titles like “FEMINISTS think ALL MEN are trash?!”, where it eventually reaches me,
I find the original blog in order to try to understand why they could possibly think I’m trash and read the rest of the article, I question why the content creator left this out and then start questioning what else they lied to me about, I start watching left wing content creators for alternate perspectives and end up the way I am now: hard core left wing gay guy who cringes at the fact I was ever even right wing adjacent
Thanks for explaining! Let me explain why I disagree with this in general. I’ll share a personal anecdote, bear with me please.
So, a feminist friend shared with me a book on human trafficking for sexual exploitation written by a group of investigative journalists that she had helped translate to Serbian. It was thoroughly researched and well documented. Reading it left a mark on me and taught me things about the world that shatter the childish worldview (this was decades ago, I was a young teenager at the time).
Now, the Serbian translation was prefaced by my friend’s fellow activist who was clearly a misandrist. The preface was filled with slurs and general assumptions of complicity and guilt about exclusively men, despite the fact that even the very book the preface was for stated that men also get trafficked (though less), and that women themselves are not rarely involved in the illegal trafficking chains of operation (think Ghislane Maxwell).
Reading that preface made me feel unjustly attacked and I would have dropped the book and never got to the good, educational part, had it not been for my friend’s highest recommendation (I’m glad I stuck with it). It turns out the woman who wrote this had had bad experiences with men in her life, and used this otherwise well researched book as a vessel to vent her personal hate for men, which was borne out of her own trauma.
While it can be considered “justified” that she feels this way, this damaged greatly the overall message of the Serbian translation, which clearly took a lot of effort to research, document and write, and than translate and publish in my country. Its educational impact was greatly diminished by the editor’s choice (out of activist camaraderie, I’m assuming) to include the hateful text at the very beginning, which unjustly attacks the very audience who would most benefit by learning from the unbiased body of the book. It’s a tragically missed opportunity.
While social media exacerbates these issues (all this happened long before social media existed), and bad faith actors attempt to skew positive feminist messages, I think we shouldn’t excuse the feminist movement for some of its own failings.
To conclude, I’m a male feminist, but I think writing “all men are thrash” or “all cops are bastards”, or “all <broad group> are <slur>” in general in the public sphere is irresponsible.
Thank you for your response! I must apologize firstly for the late reply (I do my best to be on social media as little as possible lately) and secondly for giving off the impression that I am in favor of using terms like “all men are trash”, I am against them entirely, not only do they create situations that are easy to manipulate and spin, but they also tend to give power to genuinely awful groups within the feminist movement (TERFs, anti-masc homophobes, misandrist, etc)
My response was intended to give an example where the phrase could be taken out of context to be more negative than its original context.
Believe me, I know the hate all men type feminists exist, and it’s baffling to me that they aren’t called out more often by people who care about equality
Ah, ok, I was having a hard time imagining how it could be just taken out of context without just being entirely misquoted. I was making the mistake of trying to imagine the author saying that themselves rather than saying it as a hypothetical quote to then criticize. And perhaps it’s even possible the other way, too.
I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate. At times, I haven’t been too sure what any given “ism” most generally means when different people might misunderstand or even deliberately skew the meaning, and, at least for me, this helped me see a really good example of how that’s done in the context of misrepresenting feminism, in particular. Even without referencing an original source, it’s helpful to see examples to learn how to recognize that when it does happen.
Yes, imho it’s in the exact same area as All Cops Are Bastards, where it’s a critique of a system (in this case the patriarchy) that corrupts every willing and even unwilling participant through privilege and toxic expectations.
Not every cop is literally a bad person, not every man is figuratively trash. But every cop participates in an unjust and toxic system and every man benefits from certain privileges while having toxic societal expectations many suffer under placed on them.
It’s an expression for a need to change the system not a condemnation of all who fall under it’s umbrella, but it is presented as the latter by removing the context for propagandistic purposes or simply through an intellectual lazyness that wants to feed their own biases.
There is a big difference between something you can choose and something you cannot choose. Your two examples are not analogs. Cop isn’t a sex or race it’s a job and you must choose to do that job.
However much is intentionally inflammatory controlled opposition, it will never catch up to the work of people like Dworkin, Solanas, or more recently Julie Bindel.
There are plenty of established, respected feminists, who you could never in a million years claim are a psyop, whose work is taught in academia on a regular basis and whose contents would immediately get me banned off of most social media platforms if I were to swap the genders they’re talking about and post an excerpt.
And this is just the theory aspect.
Let’s not forget the revolutionary additions to the legislative side of things like the primary caregiver standard, or the Duluth model for domestic violence.
There is a reason “feminism” is not called “egalitarianism”.
Yes more modern waves have put some token effort into at least presenting a path for men to improve their lot in society, but let’s be real, conservatives do that for women too, it’s hardly in good faith and it’s fundamentally useless because the focus of the ideology isn’t to improve the lot of everyone.
It can’t be, because it starts from the presupposition that men’s lot is the best lot, and women’s needs to catch up to men’s.
Even when it nominally factors in facts like men being expected to put themselves in harm’s way and die for society it also handily blames men for making the choices that, for instance, lead to war, and it implies that therefore it’s not as important because the fact that the person sitting at a desk sending men to get shot on the front lines also happens to have a penis somehow makes it less problematic.
So yeah, there’s plenty to criticise.
Feminism has some very valid complaints, hell, a lot even, but there’s also a shitton of reasons why your average man can look at your typical feminist and ask himself “why the fuck would I ever side with you?”
☝️👏👏
The mis-characterization of feminists into “feminazis” started with Anita Saarkesian. I remember gamers coming after her hard during gamergate for literally no reason at all. If you go back and watch old Feminist Frequency episodes she wasnt saying anything insane at all. They were all solidly rational observations about the way women were portrayed in games.
The term feminazi began long before gamergate and the movement was a genuine protest against the relationship between game studios and the people pretending to be journalists and honest reviewers.
I watched as the incels and right wing nut jobs rolled in and made it about who Zoe Quinn was fucking. What people don’t remember is that she was a narcissistic sociopath who ruined anyone who crossed her and got actual feminists chased off the internet. Reframing the debate to be about slut shaming allowed the incels and the faux feminists to hijack any meaningful dialogue and all the reasonable people distanced themselves from the issue.
Oh no some people were mean on the internet, better throw out all of feminism!
As we all know what small numbers of people on twitter say defines entire groups, that’s how we know all gamers are nazis…
Andrew Tate himself is absolutely a problem, that doesn’t preclude there from also being other, related, broader, problems. Usually, when you see an argument in the form of “X thing (small, defined, addressable) isn’t the problem, Y thing (large, nebulous, intractable) is the problem!” Then what is happening is someone is re-framing the debate from a cognizable issue to an unsolvable issue, to defuse any actual action. It’s a great tactic!
I agree about the tactic, but I don’t feel this particular article aims to use it (though I concede the wording of the title is a bit clumsy). The final paragraph clarifies the clickbait (as it happens nowadays):
“There are already three or four influencers jockeying for position if he goes down,” he says. “He’s a symptom, not the problem.”
“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,”
The same could be said about “communism” and “socialism”. The words have been turned dirty, such that people shy away from what is objectively a good thing when done honestly and to the letter of the principle.
Funnily, Capitalism could work too but I don’t expect billionaires to be honest or have any principles apart from hoarding for themselves.
I mean you could also say that Capitalism is a dirty word in some circles. And yet, it addresses many of the aspects of trade, which are needed through all societal systems.
Trade existed before capitalism.
Kind of like Critical Race Theory. If properly understood and applied, people would benefit from the knowledge and empathy.
Pretty much exactly the same, except CRT got knocked down before it even had established itself as a positive thing.
It was already established. It’s just a theoretical framework in various social studies. It was deliberately bastardized by the right as they were seeking something to hate. It wasn’t even in the public consciousness, just something academics used and that get taught in some higher ed classes. It’s a very useful framework but it’s not something that you’d actually teach a kid.
It was an academic term for a relatively short period, it was never established in common language - not in the same way that socialism and communism were.
Yes, unsurprisingly, a term that’s been around for 20 or 30 years is less pervasive than a couple that have been around for over 100.
I bought the actual book because it was on sale and because I thought it would be hilarious to put out on my coffee table for when my conservative dad came to visit my house. I also figured I’d try to read it, because I should be informed about what it is so that I can argue for it, right?
Holy shit, it’s a lot of dense legal theory. I knew it was graduate material, but the book is a collection some of the most complex ideas, studies, and legal theory that I’ve ever read. I’m not going to lie that I won’t even make it a third of the way through it.
Anyone who argues that CRT is being taught in elementary schools and is being used to brainwash children hasn’t seen how high-level the material actually is and has no idea what they’re talking about.
In reality, the material is not that controversial. What I have read of it has been quite unbiased.
We need to stop teaching the children nuclear physics.
Communism kind-of smeared itself. Everywhere where communism has been tried on a national scale, it has become authoritarianism.
Maybe it would be a good thing if done to the letter of the principle, but just like Libertarianism or Anarchism, it seems to be incompatible with human nature, at least so far.
But, socialism isn’t even a foreign idea. A lot of US institutions are socialist. The mail delivery is done by an arm of the government. Streets are paved by the government. Firefighters are government employees. The water delivered to your house is almost certainly by a government-run entity. People retiring without having saved enough are taken care of by the government. There’s medicare and medicaid.
A full capitalist system would have nothing done by the government that could be done by a business. No FDA, Pinkertons instead of Police, most army functions handed over to private contractors, every road privately owned and maintained, etc.
I agree with just about everything you’ve said. Communism has had too many failures that have affected too many people, the word is tainted.
To grossly oversimplify it, capitalism is the way of business and trade, while socialism is the way of society and governance. The two things are separate, but the issue we have is that businesses are dictating policy to governments in their exclusive interest, rather than the other way around with governments focusing on the overall good of society.
To be fair, the term “feminist” was highjacked by the radical feminist movement. They very much do not believe in equality, their motto is “kill all men”
I think it’s easy to see why that would turn people away. Hence why I describe myself as an equalizer, not a feminist.
Edit: my statement was very reasonable and I’m willing to engage in discussion about what I have witnessed. If you think I’m pushing an agenda or trying to convince others of anything, feel free to check my post history. However, if you accuse me of pushing an agenda or lying or anything else, you are engaging in false faith and will be blocked. I have a long history of supporting women’s rights, as evidenced by several posts I have made. But I will not stand for being accused of being a right winger.
I think again that was one that was actually hijacked by the right wing. There is far more fearmongering about hardcore feminists than there are hardcore feminists.
While your second statement is true, there are still far too many extremists. I find it very difficult to believe that all the hatred I viewed from feminists on Tumblr and r/FemaleDatingStrategy and many other sources(like my ex who fell into that stuff) were right wingers. Just like one incel is too many(and you don’t hear people claiming incels don’t exist), one person calling for the death or enslavement of half the planet is too many.
Somebody’s mad they can’t get laid whenever they want.
Fwiw, I haven’t met a single real person who espouses the viewpoint you described. I’m not saying they don’t exist. I’m saying that until evidence is presented otherwise I doubt there are as many as you think there are.
Assuming you are male, it makes sense that you wouldn’t have met many, as they presumably take steps to avoid interacting with men. The only person like that I’ve talked to IRL would be one of my exes, and her friend group. She went off the rails after we broke up.
This is most likely an effect of recency bias for you which is unfortunate.
So much misinformation.
do you think it makes sense to distinguish between the kind of radical feminism you’re talking about, and the dry academic stuff that’s also called radical feminism by the people who are engaged in it at least?
it’s tricky, i can’t deny there aren’t spaces which are predominantly women where a bunch of unfair or negative stuff about men is said.
thing is, radical, which in math is another term for getting the ‘root’ of something, like a square root, and also means like ‘fundamental’ does have more than one meaning. when you use it, that’s one use of the word which makes sense, another which is the one i first learned and the places i go to use to describe themselves is rather dry academic, philosophical, and artsy (artsy in the way which is confusing as heck to me) and they are also radical.
so often i am confused because it’s not as though when you use the word you’re making anything up. other commenters will likely treat you like you invented that use of the word, people always police language. it’d be way nicer if we could understand each other better i really think you and i and the commenters which probably gave you a downvote all have way more in common than not.
TBH I’ve never heard of any other type of radical feminism, I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying radical feminists were the original feminists?
Radical feminism is 4th or 5th wave feminism.
comments like this are what’s hijacking it.
Fuckin lmao, you are so full of shit. You know damn well you’ve seen so many Tumblr posts, tshirts, and other bullshit that says the same things. “Kill all men” “All men are evil” “Low value men”
I guarantee you’ve seen all of that, it’s not at all uncommon. You choose to ignore it because you don’t like it. But that’s not how the world works. Other people, surprise surprise, don’t want to be associated with a movement calling for their death.
Enjoy your narrative, but welcome to the real world
i did see the low value men used; tbh i see men are trash more but that might be because of the places i stick around online
I haven’t. And now I believe you even less and think you are intentionally spreading rumors or lies because you have an agenda.
give it 50 years and the arms race of language will have its own sub arms race
you’ll coin a politically charged term, someone will coin an antonym, the original will shift to change the subject, the antonym will change to match the new, someone will point out the process and both sides will deny its happening
Every one of these words was boogeymanned as a deliberate political move
So much strife comes from bickering over the definitions of words.
It would be helpful if people knew the definitions and context of words. Maybe some type of education could help.
Granted, Lemmy is a relatively safe place to do it, but bold move, walking out into public and describing Communism as “objectively good”.
It is a wonderfully good idea. Except for one tiny, insignificant variable. Humans. Humans ruin it every time.
Communism is a very decent idea. It’s the transition to it that always tends to be spoiled by incumbant powers. Writers of Communist theory recognised this somewhat, and their solution was to have a violent revolution that would hopefully come end with the new system they devised. Now, however, the word is basically lost - there are/have been too many “Communist” countries that don’t really operate in that manner, with too many people that have suffered under that name.
Socialism doesn’t have quite the same level of stigma, but still a good deal. However, when you think about it, a significant portion of any government is “Socialist” - we pay taxes, our taxes fund roads, schools and various other social services. Socialism, or more specifically socialist policy, is that which benefits society as a whole rather than any specific group. When you see it like that, it’s hard to paint it as a bad thing, not without being completely selfish that you or your group aren’t getting an exclusive benefit.
People refuse to look at things with their core and correct definitions. They always bring their baggage along. Or, they twist it into their own framing for their own point of view.
It’s such a bummer.
I would say lemmygrad is the only safe place to do this
Is it really that hard not to be a fucking cunt?
For a teenager, yes. That’s why this is important.
I actually agree… We simply ignore the needs of men who are suffering. When was the last time you read a story about a male domestic abuse victim who WASN’T laughed at.
Or like how Google has a doodle for international women’s day but never international men’s day. Not to be dismissive or insensitive to women’s issues, but I’ve seen boys and young men talk about how little things like that give them the impression that their thoughts and feelings are not valid.
There are ofc men’s issues still like how the overwhelming majority workplaces deaths are men or how more men die from suicide than women. Men are more likely to be homeless than women etc
The sexes are supposed to compliment one another. Not compete against one another. We can acknowledge that there are issues for both sides while still being sensitive and respectful.
do you know if there is one for movember? i always felt that international mens day wasnt really popular because it wasnt ‘themed’ if you get what i mean. during movember in high school the girls would get those like moustache cutouts and wear them and it all raised awareness for men and boys and there was funding for like, i think it was prostate cancer?
I think there’s a lesson in there about teaching people that weren’t around for the formation of a movement about why targeted movements exist.
It’s not just with kids but with people that are tuned out… I think too many people fall through the cracks into white power, toxic masculinity, incel groups, etc because on the surface the questions are of course…
“well why don’t I have a support group for X? what makes that group of people special? why do they get their own day?”
Like yeah, if nobody’s ever explained what women have historically faced to you, feminism and girl power are especially strange concepts to confront.
Maybe having a more positive masculinity movement actually wouldn’t be a bad idea just to help people that are feeling a little lost and prevent them from finding “answers” in the wrong places(?)
I think the lesson here is that even if white males are “in power” on a societal level, on an individual level it still benefits everyone to have a safe space, even straight white men. We need a men’s support group. I would argue we even need a “white support group”. There are unique challenges and difficulties that come with being white. Not to the same degree as being black, for example, but they’re a totally different set of issues.
Such a good and concise comment.
There’s more to then even that. Fight Club predicted it. Mass media pushing this expectation onto young boys, but then as teenager and young adults, they have no outlet for machoism. No wood to split, no animals to kill for food, no fascists to kill(yet). Hollywood pushes the Action Hero, and neglects the Science Hero and the Guile Hero.
BTW, isn’t it sad that the stand-in for toxic masculinity in fiction is still more positive then real life toxic masculinity symbols. But fiction has to be believable.
so yes men do get laughed at for this kinda stuff, by men and also by women. when men do it, i noticed it doesn’t bother me as much truthfully.
i’ll say when i’m in more women-friendly, radical feminist spaces (journals, magazines, irl events) there really isn’t this negativity around. something like the scumm manifesto does say stuff that can be hurtful or seem hateful (i’d agree it is hateful; i’d also agree it’s completely justified and rational given the circumstances) and honestly so much of the tension seems to me to be due to the online nature of this stuff.
are there women-only spaces where a bunch of negative things about men are said? obviously, and i can’t for the life of me figure out why it’s held to a different standard than other groups outside of the patriarchy being the explanation.
i think treating and seeing women as equal is accepting there are women who have awful takes. women as a group will be like many other groups, they might appear homogeneous and their’s a wealth of differences between them.
i’m ok believing some men are toxic, as am i for some women, what i don’t do is share that opinion with others if the circumstances aren’t appropriate. i think that’s where “think before you act” or “think before you talk” comes in.
The leaders of the movement are publishing this shit though. It’s not fringe if it’s the leaders of the movement.
Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.
Any man will follow any feminine looking thing down any dark alley; I’ve always wanted to see a man beaten to a shit bloody pulp with a high-heeled shoe stuffed up his mouth, sort of the pig with the apple; it would be good to put him on a serving plate but you’d need good silver.
That’s Andrea Dworkin for you. Even though she’s dead, her followers still run the show.
yeah, think my response was responding to something non-existent (like i made up a take to argue against), appreciate your comment. one needs to take the complaints and grievances seriously if they wanna understand or have a meaningful affect.
This is the same argument as with “All Lives matter”. Why do people have to be against feminism to talk about issues men face? Because that is what I am seeing. On Lemmy or even Reddit, I didn’t see people laugh about male domestic abuse victims. But literally every discussion about it had misogynistic and anti-feminist comments.
Because historically bearing rare exceptions, the Feminist Movements have largely been anti-male, anti-trans, and anti-gay (Unless it’s lesbians of course)
Seriously look into the Vagina Monologues, it’s considered THE definitive feminist piece… in it a woman and a man having consensual sex is considered this great tragedy, but an older woman turning a CHILD into a lesbian by traumatizing her with sex (I know, that’s not how that works, but it’s how the play says that works) is said to be a good thing… even including the line “If it was rape it was good rape”
The Feminist Movement simply aren’t the good guys (no pun intended), even if we do owe it for Women’s Liberation
The difference between All Lives Matter and this is that there really are gender-specific issues affecting men, and from their side, they feel as if they were All Lives Matter-ed. Think of it as not backlash to feminism, not a zero-sum game. Boys are just now getting to be against feminism because both the mainstream and idiots like Tate tell them that that’s what this is about, and they have no better ways to cope with it.
Toxic masculinity is the reason for that as well. Being the victim is seen as being less masculine, which is seen as worthy of ridicule.
Toxic masculinity hurts everyone.
When men do bad things: “this is toxic masculinity”
When women do bad things: “this is also toxic masculinity”
When men don’t get the support they need. Or are ridiculed for feeling emotions other than anger. And don’t feel they can cry without being judged.
Women can absolutely be abusers. That’s called shitty people and has nothing to do with masculinity, toxic or otherwise.
Most men cry in front of a woman exactly once.
That’s not toxic masculinity. It’s toxic femininity and NO ONE is addressing it in a systemic way.
In feminist theory “masculinity” and “femininity” don’t mean “what men do” and “what women do” but value systems floating through society affecting people.
So in that sense yes woman can exhibit toxic masculinity, if they reinforce those shitty norms. Likewise men can exhibit toxic femininity… say, comparatively harmless example, by discouraging a tomboy from skating.
It’s just one of those gazillions of instances where feminist terminology sucks absolutely donkeyballs because you need to read theory to understand it, which practically noone who calls themselves a feminist actually does, it’s all vibes and signals very little analysis they abuse those terms just like the rest of the population. The rest of the population at least has an excuse, they’re using the dictionary definition.
In this particular instance, “toxic (male) gender norm” would be much better.
It’s just one of those gazillions of instances where feminist terminology sucks absolutely donkeyballs
I mean, to get a little meta here, but if feminist theory essentially says “bad things are (toxic) masculinity, good things are femininity (feminism)” that betrays a deeper problem about the attitudes of feminist theorists, doesn’t it? Sure, it’s a terminology problem, but it’s also a problem that those are the terms.
Calling something women do a “toxic male gender norm” is just as problematic.
It’s called feminist studies - they’ll never say the thing they’re studying is or can be toxic. It’s always the masculine that’s bad, because the very subject name demands it.
Well, the male domestic abuse victim is probably laughed at, because he is the strong powerful man and should therefore not be able to get abused by the weak woman. The same for male rape victims: man like sex and always want sex and therefore they can’t be raped, because they like it. These stereotypes are a problem and feminism is trying to get rid of them. It will take some time to redefine the societal picture of man and woman.
These stereotypes are a problem and feminism is trying to get rid of them.
Are they though? I’ve never seen any evidence of feminists reining in their fellow feminists
-
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/apr/15/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety
-
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2552&context=clr;We
-
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2021/07/26/radical-feminism-has-a-humanity-problem/
-
https://jacobin.com/2017/07/radical-feminism-second-wave-class
I’m not saying this is representative, mind you, only that criticism of feminists by other feminists (notably for employing damaging stereotypes) is out there if you actually look for it.
Thank you! Looking through them now.
Can you name the actual feminist(s) which you’re referring to…? You won’t really see feminists doing feminist things if you’re not going out of your way to participate in the feminist movement. I’m pretty sure most people’s entire idea of “feminism” is youtube videos from 2015 complaining about dumb misandrists with colorful hair screaming “kill all men” or something.
Feminism isn’t about “men bad, women good” or “women need to be more privileged in society”, it’s about minimizing or erasing gender norms/stereotypes, even if those perceptions sometimes benefit women. Gender/sexual equality is the point of the movement, it recognizes that women are favoured by the judicial system when it comes to cases related to violence & domestic disputes, and that society thinks that men should be big and strong and scary and that society shuns men who face problems in life or are wronged as “weak”, and that young people (especially men) are lonely, and that women are unlikely to receive as much benefit from the same labour (e.g., promotions/raises, perceived expertise) compared to men, etc. etc.
And the movement recognizes that those problems are often mostly or entirely caused by fucked up perceptions about gender that our society has built over an inconceivably large amount of time, and that we still apply to the modern day, that women are weak and beautiful and pure and dumb and dependent and subordinate to men and nurturing and need to be protected, and that men are strong and smart and do all the dirty work and independent and providing and commanding and need to protect women. That women and men are treated certain ways in some areas and get certain privileges over the other because of the way society views the concept of/separation between “man” and “woman” (and pushes against the view or “neither man or woman”) in the first place.
Too many people think, because of few reactionary misandrists being significantly more publicized than actual gender equality movements, that feminism is about “we need to make men 2nd-class citizens”, rather than “these artificially constructed and inaccurate ideas of differences between men and women are harmful to society and cause us to force certain perceptions on people, making us be biased against a certain gender in many areas or shun those of a certain gender who don’t fit into certain stereotypes”. Also some people don’t really care either way and want to be mad, but that happens with everything.
Another thing that is always spammed every time anything related to women’s struggles or just general women’s rights (even if feminism isn’t mentioned) is “but what about men?” which is ignoring the entire point… we’re in a collective struggle, we should talk about all of our issues, even gender issues, and not be out to try to 1-up each other every time one of the “other” groups have their issues talked about. And we can recognize that women often face issues men don’t face as much, and men often face issues that women don’t face as much, and we can recognize that often times the difference of magnitude of struggles based on gender is caused by the fact that society treats different genders so irrationally different in the first place.
Some want to throw away the concept of “feminism”/“gender & sexuality equality” and instead exclusively use “egalitarianism”, but I think that’s kind of just trying to detract from the issue and is as absurd as saying we shouldn’t think about “racial equality” as its own concept either, and saying “women have all the rights men have, but they’re just greedy and want more” is as dumb as saying “racial minorities have all the rights that white people have, but they’re just greedy and want more”. Also because of this exact idea the term “egalitarianism” is generally associated with libertarians which is just… eugh… no thanks.
BTW this is tangential to the topic, but when people say “toxic masculinity” or “patriarchy” the idea isn’t that it’s mens fault and everything would be so much better if they just drop their toxicity and masculinity. It’s more generally referring to how historically, in societies where men were at the “top” of the social hierarchy, created were the perceptions that men are supposed to be a certain way, and that women are supposed to be a certain other way, based entirely around the most idolized men of the times having certain characteristics/powers that dictated their place in society. These ideas still, for the most part, persist to the modern day in an altered & tamer form, and they still affect how all of us who are raised in these cultures perceive gender identity. That’s why it’s said men are victims of “patriarchy” or “toxic masculinity” too, because modern gender perceptions/issues are tightly tied to where they originated, and those societal/governmental structures are still “here” in a very warped but slightly recognizable form.
I’m pretty sure most people’s entire idea of “feminism” is youtube videos from 2015 complaining about dumb misandrists with colorful hair screaming “kill all men” or something.
But that IS part of feminism. Who is putting these women in check? Serious question. Link me to some of these good feminists please.
Too many people think, because of few reactionary misandrists being significantly more publicized than actual gender equality movements, that feminism is about “we need to make men 2nd-class citizens”
I just want to quickly clarify that’s not what I think. I don’t think feminism as a whole is about putting men down, and that’s a hilariously egocentric viewpoint to have anyway…yeah this whole giant movement that says it’s about women is actually about men…come on bro get over yourself lol.
I think feminism is about raising women up. It just doesn’t have any mechanism to (1) say “hey we did it! We achieved equality in this area!” (college admissions for example), (2) strive for equality in areas where men are at a disadvantage (dirty, dangerous, physical jobs for example), or (3) address societal problems that uniquely affect men (lack of role models, for example).
we’re in a collective struggle, we should talk about all of our issues,
This is the WHOLE POINT of “what about men?” Feminists do not care about male struggles. And I’m not talking about the ivory tower theorists that no one listens to. I don’t know what they think because it doesn’t matter. What matters is what everyday feminists think and do and say.
If feminism is about equality, then for the love of God please help men a little. We’re really fucking struggling and could use a hand here. Not asking for a lot, just a little acknowledgement and appreciation and maybe a policy initiative here and there.
But that IS part of feminism. Who is putting these women in check? Serious question. Link me to some of these good feminists please.
The entirety of the internet is putting people in check. You don’t even have to go to specific feminists to see it, any times a misandrist freak-out goes viral there’s immediately a visceral reaction to it by even the “woke” parts of the internet and a bunch of feminists being like “yea s/he’s not one of us”. Anyone can call themselves anything, and every movement has radicals, but every feminist knows that those radicals are a joke and just easy bait for anti-feminist rhetoric.
yeah this whole giant movement that says it’s about women is actually about men…come on bro get over yourself lol. I think feminism is about raising women up.
Jesus christ you really did filter out literally everything you just read didn’t you… every time “feminism” comes up it’s literally feminists telling you “it’s not just about women” but people like you just completely ignore it. What entity exactly is “this whole giant movement” that’s saying it’s about women? I explained where the gendered terms of the movement come from, the historical reasons why they’re called that, so I would hope you’re not just taking the name at face value. There is literally not a singular feminist that says “yeah this movement isn’t about men at all, we only care about women”. Many issues in this world primarily screw over women though, and those are often talked about, which I assume is where your confusion comes from.
It just doesn’t have any mechanism to (1) say “hey we did it! We achieved equality in this area!” (college admissions for example)
What is this even supposed to mean? You think feminists aren’t happy and don’t take pride in when a goal like more equal treatment in something based on gender or sexual orientation is achieved? That literally proves that you don’t actually pay attention to anything that has to do with the movement and you’re just making rage up lol.
(2) strive for equality in areas where men are at a disadvantage (dirty, dangerous, physical jobs for example)
Except they do. Literally one of the most important parts of the feminist movement is encouraging people to pursue career choices that societal perceptions discourage a specific gender from doing. Especially when it comes to dirty, dangerous, physical jobs. Do you know just how much women working trades/physical labour is talked about in various feminist groups? It is one of the primary workplace issues, generally women are completely bullied out of working such jobs and are seen as “incompetent” when it comes to professions like welders, mechanics, electricians, or any other form of physically demanding jobs. I have witnessed this firsthand, as well as my former best friend literally being a welder and constantly describing how awful women are treated by the people working these jobs, how they’re constantly sexualized/objectified and harassed, how they have to always be afraid in their own workplace because of this. This is one of the most important things feminists are actively working on, equalizing trades and making it so both men and women are treated fairly and well. Feminism is also often intertwined with worker’s rights, guarantees to employees, safety in the workplace, etc. which fits into this excelently.
address societal problems that uniquely affect men (lack of role models, for example).
What? I’m mentally facepalming right now… feminists are constantly encouraging positive role models, educators, leaders, etc. for everyone (including men), what are you on about? Additionally one of feminists’ primary concerns is access to healthcare, and especially relating to feminists’ concerns is mental healthcare, something that affects men a lot. They recognize what causes many of these problems, and they work to fix them. Feminists fight against negative influences like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate.
Many role models for men were/are feminists, and feminists actively are engaged in propping boys up and encouraging positive traits in them (as well as girls). I think one everyone can relate to hearing is Mr. Rogers.
This is the WHOLE POINT of “what about men?”
It really is not. The point is to say “women’s issues don’t matter because men also have other issues”. It is a way to detract from any discussion about women’s rights, to try to take over the conversation to say “we have it worse in some different way”, to try to emphasize the idea they have that women are privileged and men are the ones that really have it bad. It is never done to add to the conversation, but to change the conversation.
Feminists do not care about male struggles. And I’m not talking about the ivory tower theorists that no one listens to. I don’t know what they think because it doesn’t matter. What matters is what everyday feminists think and do and say.
You are straight up just constructing a strawman and beating it to death. What feminist discussions have you attended? Any at all?
If feminism is about equality, then for the love of God please help men a little.
That is quite literally what we are trying to do. But people like you refuse it and try to turn it around as a way to disparage other groups and diminish discussions about women’s struggles and gender in society. And you make strawmen constructed of some 2014 internet perception of a “feminist” pretending feminists actually believe in that, meanwhile “men’s rights activists”/anti-feminists are represented by literal far-right sex traffickers (as opposed to the many positive role models who are feminists). Like can you name any popular, modern-day, prominent-among-feminist influencers that are even a small fraction of the absurdity of that? Feminist role model influencers are random often apolitical chill people like Technoblade
lmao.Yeah I’m just gonna call you a liar. All you’re doing is saying “oh yeah we’re totally working on that” but that’s just blatant bullshit. Becaaaaause
It is never done to add to the conversation, but to change the conversation.
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define men’s issues as being impossible to discuss. You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying “but what about men” has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades. Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers. Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men. Because not only have I never seen anything like that, I’ve never even HEARD of anything like that. And I’ve gone looking.
Okay, you’re just copping out of the conversation and ignoring pretty much all the points you don’t like but I’ll give you what you want.
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define men’s issues as being impossible to discuss.
No, we just have the reaction anyone would have if we were talking about problems we face and someone else was like “yeah but what about these other issues I face”. You’re honestly telling me you think someone who just says “oh yeah your broken leg is bad but what about my broken arm? that’s bad, if not worse, and i’m tired of people talking about your leg when nobody is talking about my arm” is doing so in good faith? When do feminists shut down such conversations about men? Why do you insist on just making shit up about feminists saying not to discuss men’s issues?
You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying “but what about men” has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
I don’t know every person in history who has done that, but when you respond to literally anything discussing women’s struggles with “but what about men who have X bad” it is more often then not a quite obvious attempt at diminishing the issue at hand. There are people who say “I’m not a woman but here’s my perspective as a man who’s faced similar issues”, who are adding to the conversation, and then there are people who instead take the opportunity to try to find some way to frame the problem as not as serious as men’s problems, and then often devolve it into blaming women for men’s problems and try to say “well actually women are privileged” to completely avoid the point. Feminists do not get in the way of issues affecting men and are usually the primary proponents of solving problems faced regardless of gender – most are not ones to go into discussions about how young men are facing loneliness to say “but loneliness isn’t just a men’s thing, women also face record high loneliness! and in fact women have it worse because nobody acknowledges their loneliness epidemic!” yet this is exactly the reaction you see droves of which are highly popular on social media every time women’s issues get brought up.
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades.
Yeah this is how I know you’re talking out of your ass. How did you go through the entire 2000s-2010s without seeing all the initiatives to get women to work in traditionally male work places? Regardless I’ll give you what you want, talking about the issues faced with women not working in traditionally male-dominated workplaces and encouraging women in trades and many others:
“The U.S. Department of Labor’s Women’s Bureau has awarded $7.4 million in active grant funding to help recruit, train and retain more women in quality pre-apprenticeship and registered apprenticeship programs as well as nontraditional occupations.”
https://www.usaid.gov/engendering-industries/gender-equality-best-practices-framework
Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers.
Literally this entire Reddit thread is full of feminists discussing exactly that, and quite clearly having a higher amount of male educators than we currently have is pretty important to them, with the reception to the topic being overwhelmingly positive and linking many resources on the matter: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/1776kfn/what_is_the_impact_of_the_lack_of_male_teachers/
Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men.
The origin in scholarships for historically disadvantaged groups is based in the fact that they faced many significant barriers in the past to attending college, and these scholarships were crucial to getting e.g. women, black people, to attend. Your question is a bit like asking about racial minority rights movements creating scholarships for white people. That being said there are a TON of scholarships for men (and for specific groups of whites), here’s a list:
https://scholarships360.org/scholarships/scholarships-for-men/
https://www.aamn.org/scholarships
Plus you have things like this which are supported by people who think like you: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/04/13/womens-scholarships-and-awards-eliminated-to-be-fair-to-men/?sh=519c6bd87fe2
Your point is assuming that men have disproportionately higher of a financial burden to going to college than women. Which they don’t. In fact, women have significantly more student loan debt than men and are generally less financially independent in our society so it’s the other way around. Men’s college problems are more skewed towards the various other social issues that feminists work to improve, i.e. access to mental health services (which often disproportionally affects men) and harmful gender norms, like once again causes men to be perceived as not fit for child-related activities (like teaching). The result is that, in general, scholarships are a lot more effective for women than for men, so there is more initiative for scholarships for women, while college health resources are more directed towards men.
In general feminists aren’t very pro-gender based scholarship to begin with, although there are a lot of scholarships for both women and men (for example MenTeach which is made specifically to get men teaching) which are supported by many feminists.
Also things like this are mostly just an American thing, scholarships like that are generally rare outside of the US… but in the US, Feminists are a LOT more concerned with completely reforming the broken education system that requires you to have to have scholarships to go in the first place.
Because not only have I never seen anything like that, I’ve never even HEARD of anything like that. And I’ve gone looking.
Lmao you obviously haven’t. I was able to find all of these with actual seconds of searching. You are a liar.
Feminism isn’t about “men bad, women good”
Tell Dworkin that. She might come out of the grave to fight you on that point.
I don’t think we ignore the needs of men. They’re just sometimes overshadowed because of other pressing matters like not being able to afford a roof over your head or to feed your family, then whose more likely to get into substance abuse? Men, trying to provide for their families but the debt is mounting and school is basically unachievable. Work wages are stagnating inflation is rising because the corpos have us all by the balls. Is there a culture that tries to pigeonhole men to bottle up their emotions in America? Absolutely. I just think the greater fight is improving these lychpins of society, and we can do that and also address men’s problems, but in a lot of ways, aren’t women’s lack of equality a big part of men’s problems in the first place? If women were paid equally and treated equally by men and other women, and society as a whole, they could take care of themselves better, provide more for their families, not feel like they have to choose between a family and a career, etc etc etc. All of it is inter-related dammit. I do get what the person in the original article is trying to say. I just don’t think that they did a particularly good job of expressing it in a relatable way.
… well, yeah… but symptoms can kill you, too.
Underrated comment.
deleted by creator
If you don’t want to parent your own son, there is someone out there willing to do it for you. They will not do a good job.
This is a really great point, but notably in this article there’s a guy trying to “do it for you” with at least good intentions telling young men about feminism.
IMO, he’s doing a pretty terrible job of it though. You’re not going to reach tate followers by telling them about feminism.
Men benefit significantly from feminism, through the breakdown of male stereotypes, and the expansion of how normative masculinity is defined. Not that benefiting cishet men is necessarily the most important thing in the world, but the idea that feminism puts men on the losing end of some zero sum game is simply wrong.
Honestly it could not be more clear in my own experience. There is a ton of diversity in the human experience, and the masculine experience is part of that. You deny your own freedom when you put yourself and others in a conformity pigeonhole. And you additionally deny yourself access to this diversity of experience when you do it to others. But I also kind of understand why this nuance is initially lost on children, and suspect that experience plus education will help immensely.
My current and previous job were traditionally not open to men. So I’m quite thankful feminism works to break down such gender norms, and it absolutely benefited me.
I’m not going to list my specific jobs for privacy reasons, so here’s a list of possibilities instead:
- -Nurse
- -Elementary School Teacher
- -Emergency Dispatcher
- -Wait staff/servers
- -Flight attendant
- -Full time parent (often called ‘stay at home’)
Education is where we all in America are going to lose this battle. looks at the GOP
I think slacktivist corporate feminism is an easy punching bag which makes it an easy case to dismiss the message.
That and with internet allowing every village idiot a voice, it is very easy for someone to say something incredibly batshit insane which becomes a punching bag for the rest of the people.
I get the basic idea of “slacktivist corporate feminism”, but can you give me some specific examples as I’m very interested in this idea.
Not OP, but:
Susan G. Komen pink on everything once a year, #girlboss, 9000 stock photos of women being women at business, bragging about a high percent of the company being women while all of the top 10% earners are men, making a Big Deal about international women’s day on social media while quietly fucking with insurance to drive up the cost of women’s healthcare, etc. etc.
While feminism is far from perfect, especially smaller circles that want to have unfair divorce rights for women or whatever, people like Andrew Tate are both the problem (as in, spreading the classic incel rhetoric) and the symptom (why young adults and teens follow people like him).
Though not only him, but also a lot of right-wing youtube channels are pushing false narratives in order to get outrage clicks and to radicalize people against things like feminism. You have youtube videos that say how “feminism is trying to ruin men” or “crazy feminists want to remove sexy girls from video games” or “feminists don’t care about men”, and given the amount of right-wing youtube videos that get hundreds of thousands and not millions of views, a lot of people do believe it. In reality, however, men do have issues and feminists are acknowledging them and are trying to do something about it (for example, toxic masculinity being responsible for male loneliness for instance), but also things like patriarchy, discrimination and so on.
Hating feminism and/or women isn’t going to solve male loneliness. Actual societal-level change, something that feminists are striving for, is the answer.
Yeah I see a ton of comments on youtube that are obviously from troll farms but it hardly ever gets called out. In their minds those are real thoughts people have, maybe they don’t always agree but the next time they have a shit thought they think its not as extreme.
So in other words, it’s working. Russia has done an amazing job at mindfucking the states I would fucking clap if it wasn’t so dumb and lame
Lack of actually good and well-known male role models leads to scum filling the vacuum. Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame. Doesn’t look like it’s gonna fix itself anytime soon though.
Role models
Boys traditionally are taught from a very young age that uncompromising, and ‘unfeeling’ toxic males are what we need to look up to. So that’s what they gravitate towards. It’s a whole other discussion about unburdening and unpacking toxic views in men that is the core issue actually at play.
Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame.
Women pushing for equal rights isn’t to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It’s not girls’ fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.
Doesn’t look like it’s gonna fix itself anytime soon though.
Social inequality is never going to fix itself. There isn’t a single issue in the world that is going to just fix itself.
Women pushing for equal rights isn’t to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It’s not girls’ fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.
Feminism when women have issues in society: “Men, you must fix this! Or else you are an evil person!”
Feminism when men have issues in society: “Ew, sort your own shit out, loser males”
Gee, I wonder why fewer men are identifying as feminists nowadays
That’s not what they said. You didn’t just simplify it by changing the words, you changed the words.
I’m a feminist. And a single father to a future man. Poster is right. I put energy into teaching my son how to elevate women. I also teach him self worth, healthy masculinity, and loving himself.
You just hate women. There’s no other reason to put energy into posts like this. If it’s because you’re sad and lonely and feel left behind, I’m sorry. I’d be happy to talk to you about it.
I don’t hate women, but I dislike feminists. And I get really angry when feminists try to claim a monopoly on morality. I guess you could say it triggers me. Feminists don’t care about men’s issues. At best they only give lip service.
There’s this popular sense of “if you care about making society better, you’re a feminist”. But feminism is solely concerned with making women’s position better. Which, due to how discriminated against women have been, comes out to much the same thing most of the time. But not ALL of the time, and when there’s a gap between “what’s good for women” and “what’s good for society”, there’s nothing filling that gap. No group to turn to. Any time anyone tries they get co-opted or shut down by feminists, or they tap into right-wing misogyny to completely defy feminism.
Yeah, that angers me. Men trying to better themselves are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
The people you’re referring to aren’t feminists. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that no one who’s never encountered a piece of feminist theory isn’t one. I mean, how could they be?
It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible, or a star wars fan who’s only ever seen start Trek, or whatever.
I understand how you can associate the kind of shrieking misandry you often come across as feminism, since the kindd of people (usually women) who are all about this are very angry and very vocal.
Actual feminists - the ones seeking to gain a more cogent understanding of the dynamics of gender and out of that create a more suitable world, don’t sound like they. That wave crashed and broke on the shore. Sure there are people who call themselves feminists who want nothing more than to replace patriarchy with matriarchy but they’re rarely the ones doing any actual work towards creating better gender relations.
I’ll give you a tipe that will help you spot the difference pretty quickly: do they ever mention men, at all, in a way that isn’t dismissive or angry?
If they don’t, then chances are they’ve never read anything about feminism that they didn’t see online. I think most of the ones that have read a book before would agree with you that it’s important that men have a voice, and many of them are sounding the same alarms you’re sounding.
When feminism talks about patriarchy they’re not talking about emasculating men - just that it’s high time tried looking at alternatives to power structures that only benefit a very small percentage of people at the expense of everyone else.
Patriarchy is men fighting tooth and nail when we don’t have to. It’s being told by society to shut up and get on with it. That your humanity makes you weak.
I’m sure if you could approach the theory with an open mind you’d be shocked at how much of it you agree with. Fucked if I know how you would make it past the refuse pile of shrieking blue haired misandrists though.
It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible
There are hundreds of millions of Christians who have never read the Bible.
You can’t pretend that the vast majority of adherents to an ideology are not true adherents to that ideology. If you want to get semantic, reframe everything I’ve said to say “people who call themselves feminists but have never studied feminist theory” rather than “feminists”.
Now do you agree with me?
This seems a little disingenuous considering that the vast majority of Christians at least have memorized some scripture, so they know all the greatest hits. OP’s point is if someone can’t tell you a wit about feminist ideological literature, or name any hidtorically noteworthy figures of the movement then they’re probably not feminists
So you think the feminist you replied to doesn’t care about men’s issues?
I don’t presume to speak for any one individual.
You made a sweeping statement about what you think all (or effectively all) feminists believe. Why is asking about what you think a recent, specific person believes, somehow over the line?
Only to serve their own purposes. An ends to a means. Feminism is not about men.
?
As a man, any ideology which stands against toxic masculinity or putting men in cognitive boxes helps men. Tearing down traditional gender roles absolutely fits that description imo.
I have never felt stuck between a rock and a hard place. In fact, the ethics of the question could not be more obvious to me. Feminism calls on me(n) to be authentic and to deny precisely the kind of existential bad faith which puts men into boxes. If you want to be in a box, that’s on you. If you want to project that onto others, that’s toxic.
As a man, any ideology which stands against toxic masculinity or putting men in cognitive boxes helps men. Tearing down traditional gender roles absolutely fits that description imo.
Sure, I agree, mostly. But men need more than what feminism offers, and not all that feminism offers is good, for men or for equality.
Where do you find positive male role models?
Feminism when women have issues in society: “Men, you must fix this! Or else you are an evil person!”
Feminism isn’t women asking men to fix their problems. It’s asking men to simply treat them the same so they can fix their own problems. And it’s not even fully just men, but the patriarchy which if you don’t know the difference then you need to figure that out before you start making broad sweeping generalizations of feminism.
Feminism when men have issues in society: "Ew, sort your own shit out, loser males
Except feminism is also about fixing male problems. Every single problem men face would be fixed if we got equal rights. For example one of those most prevelant problems that men face is discrimination in family court. Men almost always get screwed when it comes to parental rights. This stems from the old patriarchal view that men should be working and women taking care of the children. When divorce was first legalized courts gave the women custody of the children so men could be free to be men with out the burden of children. Now, men have grown and are starting to realize they want to be fathers. They want families. But due to old patriarchal ideals and ingrained ‘traditions’, often not even conscious decisions, men get screwed when it comes to parenting rights.
This reaches across all feminist ideals. Men just dont want to hear it.
Except feminism is also about fixing male problems.
Sorry, I’m not buying it. It’s a cute saying but it’s utter horseshit. Feminists give lip service to male problems. Let’s take your own example of family court. Where’s the big feminist push to fix it? Because feminists are supposedly so concerned with equality.
“I don’t know off the top of my head of any feminist court reform attempts so obviously there are none.”
Get over yourself
Okay, results of an ecosia search for “feminists family court”:
-
National Organization for Women: “There is a national crisis for women and their children in the family law courts of this country.” Clicking through the related links mentions men only as abusers.
-
r/askfeminists: "What Do Feminists Think of the Statement “Family courts should not favor women in custody disputes.”? Tagged as “low-effort/antagonistic”, hilariously enough. Top responses: 1. It’s a myth. 2. Also, why don’t men demand paternity leave? 3. It’s a myth.
Quick note about the “it’s a myth” thing: a lot of feminists are saying “the majority of custody cases are decided out of court” and using that as evidence that a) the courts aren’t biased, and b) if women mostly have custody it must be because that’s what men want, since it was decided out of court. They miss the glaring obviousness of a man facing massive legal expenses just to have a family court tell him he can’t get full custody, or even worse, risking having no custody. Most lawyers will advise men to settle out of court. In other words, this is a convenient statistic to dodge the inherent bias in the courts, which is the cause of the statistic.
Anyway, to sum up: two articles deflecting into talking about abusers, one article that completely ignores men except as abusers, one article supporting equality, and one forum full of responses dismissing or belittling the issue. And one article that argues against feminism and in favor of some kind of right wing tradwife insanity.
Sure doesn’t look like any real reform efforts? Ya got 1 out of 6 there.
I’m sorry one Google search didn’t bring up populist topics you where looking for. Just because family law isn’t on the forefront of the general feminist agenda doesn’t mean there isn’t attempts at reform or, has been in the past. It’s very obvious your entire concept of feminism is rooted in ignorance at best, a misinformation at worse.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3194962
Here’s a paper explaining how feminism has changed family. Giving many modern (1960 onward)examples.
- Removed the ban on contraceptives.Allowing the individual to determine their reproductive rights. Both man and women.
- Made it so alimony wasn’t just from husband paying wife but could be from wife to pay husband.
- Made it unconstitutional to to discriminate against children born outside of marriage. Affects men and women.
- No-fault divorce. Allowing people to actually get divorced. Both men and women.
- Created laws for restraining orders, and classified marital rape.
- Increases recognition of informal relationships (not legally married).
- Created a legal separation between sex and procreation which laid the ground work for same sex relationships. Helps men and women.
- Helped remove gender based roles described in family law which redefined legal marriage. Helps men and women.
-
Fair point, I’ve never looked specifically for that, let me do some googling.
When divorce was first legalized courts gave the women custody of the children so men could be free to be men with out the burden of children.
This…isn’t accurate. When divorce was first legalized, the courts tended to give custody to whoever held the most wealth (usually the father), as they would be best able to materially take care of children. What you might describe as early proto-feminists pushed to flip that around which led to the tender years doctrine (essentially that a child needs it’s mother) and the idea that it didn’t matter who could best materially take care of a child, we can simply transfer wealth from the other parent on pain of jail if needed. Decades later, that idea in turn became part of “patriarchy” when women having careers became more normal, leading to the current scenario in most places in the US where the policy is to go with whatever biases the judge in question has (which tends to lean closer to tender years than the opposite due to social inertia).
There have been moves to make starting from a position of equal custody and moving from there if there’s a good reason to a thing, but this often gets protested, usually by feminists (see Kentucky).
You forgot Peterson in this Unholy Trinity of Toxic Masculinity
How anyone heard this man’s voice and decided he was one of their “Alphas” is a mystery.
Also these nut jobs like to pretend that these mythical heroic figures built civilization with their bare hands instead of being lucky enough to be born with a whip in their hand and slaves to use it on.
Damn me for wanting the right to my body in an anti abortion state.
I’m fully pro-abortion, pro reproductive rights, pro trans rights. I don’t know where you felt I implied otherwise. Ill gladly clear it up if possible.
Nah i agree with you. Just being sarcastic, and phrasing it badly and exhausted. And concerned with privacy in an age where nothing is private and worried about my younger relatives who somehow have less rights then I did ten years ago. Then I read articles like this where the title could be phrased differently because I would consider a sex trafficker a problem.
Isn’t that headline just rage bait? Or is that just incompetence?
If you cannot name, let alone quote, a single piece of feminist literature, are you really against feminism, or are you just railing against your own fucked up projections?
Since Parent choice is apparently all the rage, I demand that my children and their peers all be taught The Second Sex by 6th grade or so.
Against, in my opinion, because you hold women back even if it is unwittingly.
But they’re also far from unreachable. Ignorance has a solution.
In all honesty, 3rd wave feminism chased away a lot of male allies. Like a whole lot.
But I don’t think that’s what led to Andrew Tate, that is no failure of feminism.
Andrew Tate is the product of hyper capitalistic individualism being held up in all forms and media and real life as ‘the ideal lifestyle’, a rich, aggressive asshole that has enough clout that most people can’t back them down.
The Tates, Trumps, Elons of the world are having their day because our current generation conflates wealth with competence.
And it’s going to ruin our world.
That said, feminism as it stands now is far more welcoming and inclusive to men than it has been in 25 years and I applaud the change.
I’ll probably be downvoted to hell.
TLDR: If your legs are broken and you treat one and ignore the other you’ll fall eventually. That’s women’s and men’s rights. True equality is unachievable without both being fully recovered.
Full achieving women’s rights while putting minimum input into issues men face. Rarely ends well for either. High suicide rates, homelessness, alcoholism, etc. Those who try to find hope turn to their jobs, religions, and terrible role models.
Both sides have them but most people ignore the truth. People like Andrew Tate become influential because the underlying problem is ignored. More bad role models (BRM) will pop up until you treat the cause instead of the symptoms.
It doesn’t help that theres plenty information including studies that highlight the problem and proves the points made by BRM.
This is reinforced by several instances where someone wants to bring awareness to the Men issues being harassed, facing death threats and etc. This also happened when the first and only DV shelter for was opened. The staff and everyone involved faced a huge backlash that they ended up closing it.
deleted by creator
I know it isn’t much, but you should look up Hasanabi interviewing Tate. He gets clapped and his reactions pierce through that tough guy, strict father model persona of his, and it’s glorious. I was in Romania recently. I should’ve paid him a visit to taunt him.
The less I consider this man the better my general outlook on humanity is, and it’s pretty fuckdamn low these decades so let’s not add more erosion to that tiny bitter flake remaining.
I really think that tate is an imbecil, and his fanbase are just being manipulated.
It is sad to see that boys think that this idiot is someone who deserve attention.
They equate money with competence ignoring the fact that a lot of his money was illegally made.
Money == sex.
As long as women keep throwing themselves at people like Andrew Tate, men are going to look up to him.
He’s a human trafficker and a rapist. The women in his videos don’t have a choice but to do what he says.
You’re not wrong. But it shifts the blame to women when the onus should be on men to to be responsible.
It’s not about being “responsible.” Andrew Tate isn’t “responsible” and women throw themselves at him.
It’s about money. Andrew Tate has a lot of it, so he gets a lot of sex.
It’s what encourages men to be as shitty as possible in order to make as much money as possible.
I don’t feel like explaining. It’s capitalism. Patriarchy serves capitalism.
Umm, then why do women prefer to have sex with wealthy men over regular ones?
How Patriarchy and Capitalism Combine to Aggravate the Oppression of Women. If people had the time to read more, a lot of these problems would go away.
