Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers

“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.

When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”

Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.

“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.

But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”

  • constnt@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Role models

    Boys traditionally are taught from a very young age that uncompromising, and ‘unfeeling’ toxic males are what we need to look up to. So that’s what they gravitate towards. It’s a whole other discussion about unburdening and unpacking toxic views in men that is the core issue actually at play.

    Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame.

    Women pushing for equal rights isn’t to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It’s not girls’ fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.

    Doesn’t look like it’s gonna fix itself anytime soon though.

    Social inequality is never going to fix itself. There isn’t a single issue in the world that is going to just fix itself.

    • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Women pushing for equal rights isn’t to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It’s not girls’ fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.

      Feminism when women have issues in society: “Men, you must fix this! Or else you are an evil person!”

      Feminism when men have issues in society: “Ew, sort your own shit out, loser males”

      Gee, I wonder why fewer men are identifying as feminists nowadays

      • blazeknave@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        That’s not what they said. You didn’t just simplify it by changing the words, you changed the words.

        I’m a feminist. And a single father to a future man. Poster is right. I put energy into teaching my son how to elevate women. I also teach him self worth, healthy masculinity, and loving himself.

        You just hate women. There’s no other reason to put energy into posts like this. If it’s because you’re sad and lonely and feel left behind, I’m sorry. I’d be happy to talk to you about it.

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          I don’t hate women, but I dislike feminists. And I get really angry when feminists try to claim a monopoly on morality. I guess you could say it triggers me. Feminists don’t care about men’s issues. At best they only give lip service.

          There’s this popular sense of “if you care about making society better, you’re a feminist”. But feminism is solely concerned with making women’s position better. Which, due to how discriminated against women have been, comes out to much the same thing most of the time. But not ALL of the time, and when there’s a gap between “what’s good for women” and “what’s good for society”, there’s nothing filling that gap. No group to turn to. Any time anyone tries they get co-opted or shut down by feminists, or they tap into right-wing misogyny to completely defy feminism.

          Yeah, that angers me. Men trying to better themselves are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

          • Fungah@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            The people you’re referring to aren’t feminists. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that no one who’s never encountered a piece of feminist theory isn’t one. I mean, how could they be?

            It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible, or a star wars fan who’s only ever seen start Trek, or whatever.

            I understand how you can associate the kind of shrieking misandry you often come across as feminism, since the kindd of people (usually women) who are all about this are very angry and very vocal.

            Actual feminists - the ones seeking to gain a more cogent understanding of the dynamics of gender and out of that create a more suitable world, don’t sound like they. That wave crashed and broke on the shore. Sure there are people who call themselves feminists who want nothing more than to replace patriarchy with matriarchy but they’re rarely the ones doing any actual work towards creating better gender relations.

            I’ll give you a tipe that will help you spot the difference pretty quickly: do they ever mention men, at all, in a way that isn’t dismissive or angry?

            If they don’t, then chances are they’ve never read anything about feminism that they didn’t see online. I think most of the ones that have read a book before would agree with you that it’s important that men have a voice, and many of them are sounding the same alarms you’re sounding.

            When feminism talks about patriarchy they’re not talking about emasculating men - just that it’s high time tried looking at alternatives to power structures that only benefit a very small percentage of people at the expense of everyone else.

            Patriarchy is men fighting tooth and nail when we don’t have to. It’s being told by society to shut up and get on with it. That your humanity makes you weak.

            I’m sure if you could approach the theory with an open mind you’d be shocked at how much of it you agree with. Fucked if I know how you would make it past the refuse pile of shrieking blue haired misandrists though.

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible

              There are hundreds of millions of Christians who have never read the Bible.

              You can’t pretend that the vast majority of adherents to an ideology are not true adherents to that ideology. If you want to get semantic, reframe everything I’ve said to say “people who call themselves feminists but have never studied feminist theory” rather than “feminists”.

              Now do you agree with me?

              • jandar_fett@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                This seems a little disingenuous considering that the vast majority of Christians at least have memorized some scripture, so they know all the greatest hits. OP’s point is if someone can’t tell you a wit about feminist ideological literature, or name any hidtorically noteworthy figures of the movement then they’re probably not feminists

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  I don’t think most people could name important figures, but I think most everyone could relate a list of things women used to not be able to do that now they can do. But regardless, the analogy is breaking down a bit. There are still plenty of Christians who know nothing about the Bible or the history of the religion (most people who do learn about it tend to lose their faith lol).

          • ripcord@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            So you think the feminist you replied to doesn’t care about men’s issues?

              • ripcord@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                You made a sweeping statement about what you think all (or effectively all) feminists believe. Why is asking about what you think a recent, specific person believes, somehow over the line?

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  Because it’s easy to know what a movement believes in general, but it’s almost impossible to know what a person believes unless you know them very well personally?

                  Why is it that every time I come on lemmy I end up explaining something so simple it should be self explanatory?

          • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
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            11 months ago

            As a man, any ideology which stands against toxic masculinity or putting men in cognitive boxes helps men. Tearing down traditional gender roles absolutely fits that description imo.

            I have never felt stuck between a rock and a hard place. In fact, the ethics of the question could not be more obvious to me. Feminism calls on me(n) to be authentic and to deny precisely the kind of existential bad faith which puts men into boxes. If you want to be in a box, that’s on you. If you want to project that onto others, that’s toxic.

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              As a man, any ideology which stands against toxic masculinity or putting men in cognitive boxes helps men. Tearing down traditional gender roles absolutely fits that description imo.

              Sure, I agree, mostly. But men need more than what feminism offers, and not all that feminism offers is good, for men or for equality.

              Where do you find positive male role models?

      • constnt@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Feminism when women have issues in society: “Men, you must fix this! Or else you are an evil person!”

        Feminism isn’t women asking men to fix their problems. It’s asking men to simply treat them the same so they can fix their own problems. And it’s not even fully just men, but the patriarchy which if you don’t know the difference then you need to figure that out before you start making broad sweeping generalizations of feminism.

        Feminism when men have issues in society: "Ew, sort your own shit out, loser males

        Except feminism is also about fixing male problems. Every single problem men face would be fixed if we got equal rights. For example one of those most prevelant problems that men face is discrimination in family court. Men almost always get screwed when it comes to parental rights. This stems from the old patriarchal view that men should be working and women taking care of the children. When divorce was first legalized courts gave the women custody of the children so men could be free to be men with out the burden of children. Now, men have grown and are starting to realize they want to be fathers. They want families. But due to old patriarchal ideals and ingrained ‘traditions’, often not even conscious decisions, men get screwed when it comes to parenting rights.

        This reaches across all feminist ideals. Men just dont want to hear it.

      • kamenoko@sh.itjust.works
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        11 months ago

        How anyone heard this man’s voice and decided he was one of their “Alphas” is a mystery.

        Also these nut jobs like to pretend that these mythical heroic figures built civilization with their bare hands instead of being lucky enough to be born with a whip in their hand and slaves to use it on.

      • constnt@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        I’m fully pro-abortion, pro reproductive rights, pro trans rights. I don’t know where you felt I implied otherwise. Ill gladly clear it up if possible.

        • parrhesia@sh.itjust.works
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          11 months ago

          Nah i agree with you. Just being sarcastic, and phrasing it badly and exhausted. And concerned with privacy in an age where nothing is private and worried about my younger relatives who somehow have less rights then I did ten years ago. Then I read articles like this where the title could be phrased differently because I would consider a sex trafficker a problem.