The “tankie” thing is such a Reddit holdover, both the word and the people it describes. Nobody outside of those hyper-online teenage ideology spaces like Twitter or Reddit cares about those made-up political categories that are only based on aesthetics.
Always remember that both the pro-Hamas pro-Assad “socialist” shitposter and the pro-Israeli pagan plural trans anarchist are some American high schoolers who are too anxious to go out to a store, let alone participate in a mass movement or join an organization. Nobody in the real world cares about those basement dwellers.
If the people you want to criticize have terrible political standings, and they just LARP as socialists while supporting inane reactionary actors like Russia, the Hamas, China or the DPRK, then make an actual argument against them and fight them on their standpoints in the actual class warfare out there, instead of making a dumb-ass childish meme. Go join a party, go agitate, go organize your workplace, go read something. Analyze the class politics they espouse, criticize them on that point, not on some moral failing.
Both “tankies” and “anti-tankies” only exist on Reddit. Nobody cares in real life.
Edit: To clarify, I mean “tankie” as it is used now on the internet for anyone who’s not an anarchist or social democrat, not its original meaning dating back half a century.
I was going to say that this sounds made up cause I never once saw one, much less in Lemmy, and point out the big contradiction . Then I noticed I haven’t met any actual tankies in both here and IRL either so point taken.
I mean, I tend to interpret ‘tankie’ to be people who support Lenin’s dictatorship of the proletariat or similar ideas. Basically, the idea that in order to institute communism you should aim to take power and force everyone to comply with your new state through violence against dissenting parts of the populace.
Personally, my reading of Marx and Engels is a descriptive one rather than a proscriptive one. If the forces of workers haven’t spontaneously risen to throw off their chains and seize the means of production, I don’t think you can force it. The victory of communism is one of human autonomy that comes as a natural result of capitalism’s unsustainability. That’s not the same thing as systematic reform, but it’s not the same thing as attempting to impose the change on the populace either.
I don’t think it can happen until the workers are sufficiently pushed into a corner and decide to do it themselves.
I’ve read the State and Revolution, I’m well aware of what the dictatorship of the proletariat is. Lenin endorses the use of state violence to coerce members of the proletariat who don’t support his cause. I guess i can go dig out my copy and find a supporting quote or two if you really need it. I had a couple of Marxist professors who made sure we covered that and Das Kapital pretty extensively. It’s been a minute, but I remember it standing out because of the sheer contrast between Lenin’s perspective and Engels’.
Not even mentioning his Critique of the Gotha Programme where he talks about the dictatorship of the proletariat and the transition from capitalism to communism extensively. It’s okay to not be a Marxist, but it’s just factually incorrect to claim that the dictatorship of the proletariat isn’t integral to Marx’s understanding of the transition to communism.
Marx and Engels made the fundamental mistake of conflating violence with authority. They were correct to say that revolution must be violent, and from their mistake assumed it must also establish authority. In the last 150 years, we have seen many examples of anarchic violence across the world. Marx’s assumption is no longer relevant except as an item of historical interest. It is not core to those parts of Marxian theory which are worth bringing into the analyses of the 21st century.
Yeah, for people who supported the crackdown on grassroots workers’ power protests in Prague. But that’s not what the word turned into via the internet.
@LtLiana No I think it was coined to describe communists in the west who were down with the Stalinist government led by Rákosi [edit, whoever the old hardliners were in Hungary and whoever it was in the USSR under Kruschev] sending tanks to subdue Hungary. Wikipedia on Hungarian uprising for those who want to know more.
Tankies generally are still Stalinism apologists, among other things. I don’t think it has changed that much.
These days they just have a whole lot more egregious totalitarianism to be apologists for.
@OurToothbrush oops deleted wrong comment. You and are having this exact exchange in 2 places and I only want to have it in one.
I’m trying to call Rákosi a Stalinist. He led the Stalinist govt in Hungary at that time I thought and I’m pretty sure he asked Kruschev to send in the tanks. The “Destalinization” leader got deposed by him.
Yes, and both because I dont believe you and as an exercise in learning what actually happened, could you please cite your claims? Because that does not line up with what I know to be the sequence of events.
Also note how similar to a Nazi they sound (mind you i am not calling this person one). Nazis always argue we should debate their ideas but we know that shit doesn’t work and is a way to legitimize their genocidal rhetoric.
Then there’s the whataboutism and concern trolling. We should think about UnItY when tankies have the fascistic ideals and cause this divisiveness. This hit all and people got pissed.
Honestly you’re right. I mostly noticed how they reminded me of liberal centrists but decided to have it be a passing joke instead because I didn’t feel like picking an argument today.
The “tankie” thing is such a Reddit holdover, both the word and the people it describes. Nobody outside of those hyper-online teenage ideology spaces like Twitter or Reddit cares about those made-up political categories that are only based on aesthetics.
Always remember that both the pro-Hamas pro-Assad “socialist” shitposter and the pro-Israeli pagan plural trans anarchist are some American high schoolers who are too anxious to go out to a store, let alone participate in a mass movement or join an organization. Nobody in the real world cares about those basement dwellers.
If the people you want to criticize have terrible political standings, and they just LARP as socialists while supporting inane reactionary actors like Russia, the Hamas, China or the DPRK, then make an actual argument against them and fight them on their standpoints in the actual class warfare out there, instead of making a dumb-ass childish meme. Go join a party, go agitate, go organize your workplace, go read something. Analyze the class politics they espouse, criticize them on that point, not on some moral failing.
Both “tankies” and “anti-tankies” only exist on Reddit. Nobody cares in real life.
Edit: To clarify, I mean “tankie” as it is used now on the internet for anyone who’s not an anarchist or social democrat, not its original meaning dating back half a century.
@LtLiana puzzled by this comment. “Tankies” have been around since long before most people on reddit were even born.
Yeah, but the word took on a completely different meaning through internet discourse.
I’ve met tankies irl. They just keep their mouths shut offline.
More like I was fine discussing Marxist talking points, but they eventually turned to defending the ccp and I suddenly had something else to.do.
So, Whats a chapo? Are chappies tankies?
I feel so old. My bones ache.
I’ never seen an ol’ chap spout bulldog like 'at!
It’s the name of a podcast they’re all fans of
I was going to say that this sounds made up cause I never once saw one, much less in Lemmy, and point out the big contradiction . Then I noticed I haven’t met any actual tankies in both here and IRL either so point taken.
over here (germany) you actually meet tankies every now and again at leftist protests, but they usually aren’t taken very seriously
Maybe it’s just me in Germany, but most of our “anarchist” “antifa” subculture is pro-US and pro-Israel.
When you counterculture so hard you loop back into mainstream
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)
I’m from Germany too and that is news to me. Maybe region dependant? I live in Bremen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)
Thank you! I’ll go take a look
Edit: it appears to be more prevalent in former East Germany. That would explain it. I don’t go there often.
you critiqued the tankie discourse
then proceeded to bullshit the tankie discourse
I mean, I tend to interpret ‘tankie’ to be people who support Lenin’s dictatorship of the proletariat or similar ideas. Basically, the idea that in order to institute communism you should aim to take power and force everyone to comply with your new state through violence against dissenting parts of the populace.
Personally, my reading of Marx and Engels is a descriptive one rather than a proscriptive one. If the forces of workers haven’t spontaneously risen to throw off their chains and seize the means of production, I don’t think you can force it. The victory of communism is one of human autonomy that comes as a natural result of capitalism’s unsustainability. That’s not the same thing as systematic reform, but it’s not the same thing as attempting to impose the change on the populace either.
I don’t think it can happen until the workers are sufficiently pushed into a corner and decide to do it themselves.
Removed by mod
I’ve read the State and Revolution, I’m well aware of what the dictatorship of the proletariat is. Lenin endorses the use of state violence to coerce members of the proletariat who don’t support his cause. I guess i can go dig out my copy and find a supporting quote or two if you really need it. I had a couple of Marxist professors who made sure we covered that and Das Kapital pretty extensively. It’s been a minute, but I remember it standing out because of the sheer contrast between Lenin’s perspective and Engels’.
Removed by mod
That’s just Marxism. That idea started with Marx, not Lenin. He even talks about it in the Communist Manifesto, saying:
Not even mentioning his Critique of the Gotha Programme where he talks about the dictatorship of the proletariat and the transition from capitalism to communism extensively. It’s okay to not be a Marxist, but it’s just factually incorrect to claim that the dictatorship of the proletariat isn’t integral to Marx’s understanding of the transition to communism.
Marx and Engels made the fundamental mistake of conflating violence with authority. They were correct to say that revolution must be violent, and from their mistake assumed it must also establish authority. In the last 150 years, we have seen many examples of anarchic violence across the world. Marx’s assumption is no longer relevant except as an item of historical interest. It is not core to those parts of Marxian theory which are worth bringing into the analyses of the 21st century.
Word comes from 80s Britain as far as I’m aware.
Yeah, for people who supported the crackdown on grassroots workers’ power protests in Prague. But that’s not what the word turned into via the internet.
@LtLiana No I think it was coined to describe communists in the west who were down with the
Stalinist government led by Rákosi[edit, whoever the old hardliners were in Hungary and whoever it was in the USSR under Kruschev] sending tanks to subdue Hungary. Wikipedia on Hungarian uprising for those who want to know more.Tankies generally are still Stalinism apologists, among other things. I don’t think it has changed that much.
These days they just have a whole lot more egregious totalitarianism to be apologists for.
When did stalin die and when did the hungarian revolt happen?
deleted by creator
Are you calling krushchev a stalinist? They guy who led destalinization?
@OurToothbrush oops deleted wrong comment. You and are having this exact exchange in 2 places and I only want to have it in one.
I’m trying to call Rákosi a Stalinist. He led the Stalinist govt in Hungary at that time I thought and I’m pretty sure he asked Kruschev to send in the tanks. The “Destalinization” leader got deposed by him.
My history on all this is rusty as hell though.
Yes, and both because I dont believe you and as an exercise in learning what actually happened, could you please cite your claims? Because that does not line up with what I know to be the sequence of events.
Okay sure but you can just say that then
At yes the glorious centrist arrived /halfjoking
Also note how similar to a Nazi they sound (mind you i am not calling this person one). Nazis always argue we should debate their ideas but we know that shit doesn’t work and is a way to legitimize their genocidal rhetoric.
Then there’s the whataboutism and concern trolling. We should think about UnItY when tankies have the fascistic ideals and cause this divisiveness. This hit all and people got pissed.
Honestly you’re right. I mostly noticed how they reminded me of liberal centrists but decided to have it be a passing joke instead because I didn’t feel like picking an argument today.
Have you seen hexbear? They seem to fit the tankie category to a tee
Right down to the transphobia while saying “just trust me bro, abolishing capitalism will end identity discrimination, I’m totally an ally”
What if I’m an anti-israel pagan hivemind trans anarchist?