- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
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So reasons include: politics (Lots of swing voters work in the auto manufacturing industry that would get pissed with an influx of chinese cars), national security (worries of the type of information Chinese cars would send back home), and lastly industry protectionism.
As much as this sucks, I kind of agree. We really don’t want to rely on China until they prove to reliably not want to screw us. If this was Taiwan, Mexico, any country from the EU, etc. I would definitely want their cheap EVs to hit our market and bloody up the american manufacturers.
To add to the national security angle: the auto industry is one of the industries that would be able to pivot to wartime production the fastest (as seen in the world wars). Probably not the first thing on everyone’s mind, but I’d bet it’s at least part of the consideration.
Killing the planet so you can be ready for war.
God bless America.
What? Burning bunker oil to ship Chinese made cars across the ocean is better for the planet than manufacturing them domestically?
Oh I must have missed the press release where he announced much higher tariffs for all cars, including ICE ones, manufactured on the other side of the Pacific.
Well. Yes, probably.
The environmental costs for shipping on a large container ship are, per unit, pretty low. China’s already got the process for making cheap EVs down cold; we are still building our industry up, and it’s slooooooooow. It’s also more environmentally expensive to be duplicating processes rather than making scaling an existing process.
OTOH, the ability to wage war effectively is a compelling national security interest.
Not to mention that China is pretty big into the “prepare for war” game too.
Not sure why you were downvoted, however you feel about it the fact that China is currently undergoing one of the largest peacetime military buildups in history is undeniable
Yes actually, if you understood economies of scale there’s a lot of reasons why planting your own garden in your backyard is worse than having industrial farms. Similarly, one country being able to control all the pollution would be far better than spreading it out and having little to no locust of control.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23132579/eat-local-csa-farmers-markets-locavore-slow-food
For some articles about farming. Now obviously, there are situations where you can make local manufacturing better, but that comes at a high cost.
Either way, the point is, your initial assumption is wrong and I hope you learned something.
We aren’t talking about small scale manufacturing vs large scale. It’s large scale either way. Your analogy doesn’t work.
Sadly for the US is it small scale manufacturing. Which is kind of the problem. There’s been so much reduction in US manufacturing capability that they are essentially small scale. Other people have already pointed that out. What I will extend though is technically this is what the US is concerned about. The whole point that the US government is trying to make is that it’s a national security issue that the US only produces at such small scale. So not only is what the US saying is that they want to destroy the environment and spend billions to start to maybe create large scale manufacturing again. Is it worth it? I dunno, but that’s what’s being proposed. Kill the environment, stick with ICE vehicles so USA can still compete in large scale manufacturing. Thus, Biden is a hypocrite.
Did you read the article?
To add a bit more to the national security angle: with the potential to escalate into open warfare with China, due to tensions between Taiwan and China, we really don’t want millions of drivable computers sending harvested metadata about our road systems and behavior patterns directly to enemy leadership.
At this point, I’d say the consumer drone industry can switch over the fastest.
i like how the US imposed the free market onto everyone else, bit now they are closing theirs for protectionism
Almost like the US are acting in their own interests.
of course, what bothers me is the hipocrisy of making everyone else adopt that shitty freemarket-at-all-costs model when they themselves arent.
Well china is completely anti free market.so I’m actually surprised more countries aren’t charging more tarrifs on them. Also, I don’t think most major countries are completely protectionist free.
china is being sanctioned to hell because of that, war with them is being discussed by republicans over this.
any country that is does, and most cant survive it.
china is the exception because they are big enough to survive it.
What?
We make about 150,000 vehicles a month in America…
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DAUPSA
We sell about 150,000,000
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTALSA
If Biden if fucking over every other American to “protect” a few thousands jobs…
That’s a bad choice.
For damn near everyone except the executives of companies who make most of their vehicles in Mexico anyways.
Like, if Biden is doing this to protect jobs, it’s protecting jobs that went to Mexico decades ago.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/889529/mexico-automotive-production-volume/
This isn’t a few thousand jobs, auto manufacturing in the u.s. employs millions and millions more work in services or industries dependent on it.
Also union auto jobs keep wages high for other unskilled labor as it puts upward pressure on employers as they compete for workers, eg. Amazon may have to increase wages to compete with a unionized auto plant that got a raise with the recent negotiation, otherwise people might choose to work there. If that auto plant goes under though, or moves over to China, then there’s a surplus of workers who need a job so amazon can lower wages cause they know they’re desperate, this is how the middle class collapses.
Globalization encourages a race to the bottom for wages which hurts workers. That’s why free trade deals like NAFTA/USMCA will have minimum wages put on auto manufacturing, and why it’s better for cars to be manufactured in Mexico then in China, where no such minimum wage exists. Chinese cars aren’t cheaper because their manufacturers are more efficient, its because their workers are more exploited.
We do need to transition away from gas cars, ideally to public transit, but absent that we can encourage EV adoption with subsidies and discourage gas car purchases with taxes without destroying the middle class.
This isn’t a few thousand jobs, auto manufacturing in the u.s. employs millions and millions more work in services or industries dependent on it.
So why dont we have tarrifs on the ones that are produced in Mexico too?
That’s the problem with “moderates” you can’t argue with consistent logic.
You have to fliflop back and forth and sometimes argue the exact opposite.
If this is to protect US jobs, and that’s a good thing, why don’t every foreign country have tariffs? Why let American corporations send the jobs to Mexico?
Have a look at that NAFTA replacement agreement. There’s provisions in there specifically to put upwards pressure on Mexican wages.
Wow, can we get anything like that for American auto workers?
We have that. They’re called unions. Of course, that’s also at risk, since half the population seems OK with breaking union power.
So why dont we have tarrifs on the ones that are produced in Mexico too?
Mexico is not China.
It is in our best interest to have a stable and economically improving neighbor on our southern border.
Your all or nothing / black or white view of the world is extremely childish & naive. Simple solutions to complex problems are just how politicians manipulate those who don’t want to think to hard. Stop pretending that global trade policy is a simple solution arena & try thinking a little harder.
No it makes sense…
Neoliberals care about executive pay, not worker pay.
So they make up bullshit reasons about why American job less is only bad if it’s executives losing profit, not about workers losing jobs.
Everything makes perfect sense except when youre trying to explain about how it’s for the best interest of American workers, most of whom aren’t auto workers.
Political extremists, such as yourself, are exhausting.
It’s like talking to a religious fanatic, there’s no reasoning with someone who’s made a decision based on emotion instead of logic.
Yeah, shit like that.
Calling someone “an extremist” for caring about average Americans more than billionaires.
It’s got to be exhausting constantly flip flipping. Trying to act like Republicans are the worst thing ever, except progressives.
Somehow if people get more help than you think they deserve, it has to loop back around and be worse than republicans.
You can lose to republicans all day every day, but if progressives beat you just a few times, you’ll never get political power back.
Did you read my full comment or just the first sentence, cause I did go on to explain why I think manufacturing in Mexico is better. Ideally cars would be manufactured in the u.s. but I’m not going to let the good be the enemy of the great.
Also along with the minimum wage as part of the USMCA there is also better union provisions for Mexico in it as well which allows the UAW to try and organize Mexican auto workers with independent unions to raise wages.
https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/uaw-reaching-across-border-support-mexican-auto-workers
You can’t do that in China because there’s only the CCP associated state run unions with little negotiation power by the workers to raise there wages.
Just a small correction: The sales numbers are 15 million, not 150 million.
2nd correction: that 15 million number is for ALL car sales the number for NEW car sales is less than 1.5 million.
Thanks. I thought that still seemed really high.
Like, if Biden is doing this to protect jobs, it’s protecting jobs that went to Mexico decades ago.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics indicates about 1 million people in automotive manufacturing (including parts manufacturing) and 2 more million in sales (including auto parts sales, 1.5 million excluding sales) that’s a lot of people concentrated in rust belt swing states who would see job instability by foreign vehicles entering the market at race-to-the-bottom prices and quality.
https://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iagauto.htm#iag31cesnsaemp.f.p
If you expand the scope to all manufacturing jobs (because auto manufacturing doesn’t exist in a vacuum and actions taken to affect the auto industry will also have some effect to most if not all manufacturing industries) that grows to about 13 million jobs
On an unrelated note, they also indicate about 200,000 unfilled job openings in manufacturing every month indicating the industry has a desire to grow but lacks the humanpower to do so.
Ah yes, any country from the EU. Like the made in Balkan vehicles with those adidas stripes 👌
The stripes add 10 horsepower.
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Prove me wrong that this has nothing to do with the fact that China became the world’s biggest auto exporter last year and this is a desperate way for the US to try to protect their own auto industry.
Free market, my bottom.
Well, it’s more than that. China is actively trying to dump on the market. Selling things at a loss so they can kill and steal market share.
Sorta what Amazon did early on but on a global scale.
You do realise that you have described just now what all startups are doing in the US. Like look at WhatsApp, Facebook, etc. they were working for years if not decades on a massive loss in an attempt to more or less monopolize the segment, backed by the deep pockets of their investors.
And I think it is only fair if you demand the same level of scrutiny to all companies involved in such practices.
American companies can’t dump. This is specifically for countries to protect their own industries.
US companies can operate at a loss to gain market share, but the money losses is still in its own economy and not an outside foreign country that might not aligned with our countries values.
Plus a company can only lose money for so long that eventually the market starts correcting itself and investors pull funding. Can’t be said about China which is basically unlimited money.
The repercussions is drastic. China has already done this with solar panels. We are already beholden to them for this. If we were dependant on solar panels and not fossil fuel, they would literally be controlling our energy needs.
And the US has done this with so many industries, which you are trying to monopolize or control.
And apparently you are okay when your own country is doing this but not okay when other countries are doing it.
Does this seem fair to you, because sure as hell doesn’t seem to me.
It’s not about fair. Anti dumping tariffs is designed to protect national security and national industries. We are not exclusive to this. China themselves does the same exact thing.
Can you then explain to me what is the difference between
US companies can operate at a loss to gain market share
And dumping as in my books both are synonyms.
And mind you we already have a couple of multi trillion companies now, if this isn’t access to infinite resources what is…
Just Amazon? lol
Just an example.
Is amazon even much of a thing outside the US? Like here in Europe they have like 2 places they ship from and it takes a week to arrive and costs 10x as much as ordering from a local online store. I don’t really know anyone who uses amazon regularly.
This would be valid if… China was dumping. They’re not. They’re selling far above unit costs. In fact, their export models are often double or triple the price of domestic models of the same car.
I brought receipts.
https://www.ft.com/content/55ec498d-0959-41ef-8ab9-af06cc45f8e7
Just because YOU don’t believe in facts doesn’t make it less true.
Your first link is an announcement of an investigation into accusations based on assumptions and your second was behind a paywall and the most recent archive.org snapshot didn’t work.
Those aren’t really “receipts”.
Interesting receipts you provide… Receipts with zero evidence actually provided.
OP is correct. The fact is that Chinese cars sold for export are substantially more expensive than those sold for domestic consumption. Unless your argument is that they’re… Dumping domestically?
Better tell all the investors, then.
FREE* MARKET!
*=within the US
Lol no, that hasnt been true for a long time.
- = within the US**
** = if you’re born into money
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It’s obviously protectionist who said otherwise? Let China sell their cars to friendly nations, oh wait…
I made it too late to this thread and now all the top comments are corporate shill posts for the big 3 American OEMs who already outsourced the hell out of their production lines meaning none of their points about protection or votes has been valid for at least 15 years.
Even if Mexico magically invented their own cheap EV, you better bet the USA will have that blocked or at the very least smacked with a huge tariff for no reason beyond protecting some megacorp profits.
They already lobbied for all these stupid rules against JDM back when Japan proved it could make superior cars for cheap. Then, it took them decades to enter the US market locally by building factories and whatnot.
Biden is blocking because China bad and muh lobbyist profits, not because there’s an actual issue of safety or security.
Same with Huawei, they blocked their phones and telecommunication equipment and never managed to show any proof that the Chinese government is actually snooping on their equipment.
And it is not like the US doesn’t have a proven track record of pushing American suppliers to put backdoors and pretty much doing exactly what they accused Huawei and indirectly China of doing.
Every accusation a confession.
They accuse China of doing it because it’s what they are or would do.
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You also likely have Michigan as a swing state this year, which means protecting the American auto industry.
I think the new Chinese made Volvo is one of the more interesting cars coming out this year. It’s $35k… AFTER the 27.5% tariff on Chinese made cars. Meaning, Volvo is actually selling this for $27k. The car is super minimal inside, but manufacturing in China is clearly allowing them to reduce costs a shit load.
US auto manufacturing would be so screwed if these things could be sold without the tariff.
Edit: also worth noting, they’re going to be leasing these direct in many states. No dealer markup.
US Auto manufacturers have screwed themselves and the US public with their current production values.
Happened in the 1970s, and Honda and Toyota ran wild. Unfortunately US automakers are more important, it seems, than those that bought their cars.
Fossil fuel production is the only reason he can say the economy is doing well.
We have record breaking production levels
It helps that we’re still ran by geriatrics that literally have no stake in the world beyond the short term.
And American geriatrics largely despise the generations that came after them. Most not only don’t want to plant trees whose shade they will never sit in, like those in a decent society would, they want to burn the trees they sat under out of spite and vanity. This tree is theirs, and all those trees over there! Make your own trees, filthy taker future people!
This is where encouraging greed and selfishness, oh I’m sorry, “rugged individualism and rational-self-interest” as our core cultural values leads, oblivion.
We also can’t understate the amount of lobbying that American “manufacturers” do even when their vehicles are assembled outside of America.
Corporate profits count for GDP, so cheap foreign cars that are good for consumers makes “the economy” look bad. Because it’s all about how the wealthiest are doing, not how an average American is doing.
Boomer bad!
Whenever I hear the economy is doing well I generally just think that they mean the stock market is doing well. The economy of the working class’s standard of living, health, and persuit of happiness is awful.
That’s such a naive bleeding heart take. If you look at the numbers, every American is making more than ever on average.
So problem solved, we’re killing it. No need for a second metric or to think about the implications of that statement any further.
because US can’t compete with China
Because China bad, obviously
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America numba one!
In oil production
literally this https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=709&t=6
Racism and chauvinism with corruption and cronyism mixed in
Not surprised, considering the equivalent tariffs on the import of solar modules under Biden, Trump and Obama.
I mean we see their cheap shitty batteries catching on fire in bikes, hoverboards, phones, laptops… Can you imagine their cars going up in flames?
Yeah, that’s and that’s “reputable company” … Just wait until it’s RECOMBAXCKS or whatever hey will sell on amazing n.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Tesla car in Texas catches on fire overnight
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Let me picture it… weird, it looks like a Tesla.
BYD is excellent at making batteries, we have their cars n Australia and they’re pretty popular, i think even beating Tesla now, We have more stringent safety protocols than in USA too. So this isn’t the reason.
If people want something they should be able to have it. If they are good enough for the EU they are good enough for the US.
The EU also protects its manufacturers by taxing Chinese cars, but the tariffs isn’t nearly as punishing as America’s.
I’d love for the US to start by cutting the tariff to something more reasonable.
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Commence downvotes butthurt tankies.
I’m honestly confused about who the tankies are supposed to be at this point. Downvotes for what?
It costs more to own because it loses value more quickly… You mean, like all EVs? Or were you talking about the car losing half of its value the minute it drives off the lot?
Yes Trump imposed the tariff but since Biden didn’t cancel it he gets the title of the article. What 🤡 shit.
Also as another commenter pointed out, these vehicles would never pass NHTSA standards anyway.
Correct, the person who has the power to change this right now gets in the title, because they have the power to change this right now and choose not to.
Same with every policy Bush/Obama/Trump admins implemented yet Biden maintains, from torture facilities in foreign countries to blowing up children in Yemen to increased restrictions of Cuba.
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