Depends. He seems pretty out of it right now and I don’t know how much he would really accomplish. He’s also pretty old and unhealthy.
But if he comes back angry and the people around him are effective, then yeah we would start looking for other places to live. I’m not trying to live in a Russian-style handmaid’s tale.
I don’t think it’s dramatic to suggest Trump may actually put an end to our democracy though. Another Lemmy commenter summed it up best. They pointed out that we on the left may have disagreed with McCain or Bush, but we never once feared that they would seize power or leave NATO. We trusted them to at least keep the ship afloat and respect the basic tenants of our free and democratic nation.
With Trump, we don’t have that. All bets are off because he’s an unhinged narcissist. He would leave NATO and risk the Pax Americana that has stabilized the world for almost 100 years now. And he would do it for money, for negative attention, or just because someone told him he couldn’t. America has some pretty major faults but China and Russia are not ready to take the reigns. Say what you will about the West but we at least endeavor to protect human rights. I think anyone who isn’t trying to build on the current Western peace is incredibly dangerous in a very scary way.
He would leave NATO and risk the Pax Americana that has stabilized the world for almost 100 years now.
Stabilizing the world is just flat out wrong. At best, the US has stabilized itself and a select few allies. Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan most recently, along with a whole bunch of countries in Central and South America over the last 100 years would probably feel quite strongly that the US has been a disruptive force for them.
As a devout lefty who thinks America and capitalism need a lot more checks and balances, I have to somewhat disagree with you.
When we talk peace, we are talking relative terms. And I suppose I should also add prosperity into the mix.
I think the West has enabled a period of relative peace and prosperity never before seen. And I think it’s getting, overall, better every day. Technology and capitalism, for all their evils, have lifted billions out of poverty and saved billions of lives.
Unfortunately, that’s all come at a cost of destroying and destabilizing billions of lives. I’m not disagreeing that a lot of people have benefitted from that. Competition - which is what capitalism is when you distill it and ignore all the inside ball that corporations and governments play - generates new ideas and promotes the ones that generate the most capital. But it also leaves a lot of people behind. And for now let’s just ignore the idea that there could be anything else as noble as the generation of more capital.
In the US, wealth inequality is only getting worse, with homeless populations and food scarcity continuing to grow and things like access to healthcare and quality education on the decline. And there are areas of the world that have been radically destabilized by the US to retain that position of dominance and prosperity.
If you look for a nation with the current / recent, per capita record for ‘lifting people out of poverty’ you’d have to give the medal to China. Do I think the way they’ve done things over the last few decades is producing a healthy society? Nope. I’d much rather live in the US than in China. But I don’t think the US is producing a healthy society either. We’re all just screwed up in our own ways, fighting for resources and acting like our way of doing things is ok because it’s what we are indoctrinated into from a young age.
The US focuses on generating capital as a metric of success because it enables geopolitical dominance and prosperity for just enough people to keep the wheels rolling.
But that’s just my perspective.
I’m rather curious how you relativise a lot of the US’ recent history. Sure, Iraq and Afghanistan weren’t pillars of stability, but I think the balance comes down pretty hard against the US with Vietnam and other Southeast Asian nations as well. Our continued support of Israel and Saudi Arabia isn’t looking so hot either.
Then we’ve got military intervention in the Dominican Republic and support of Trujillo until he stopped being useful, installing the Pinochet regime after helping topple the government of Salvador Allende, support for the military dictatorship in Brazil, as well as backing dictatorships in Argentina.
Our colonization of the Philippines was pretty awful, as is our continued treatment of Puerto Rico as essentially a vacation spot and Caribbean ghetto.
You get the idea. Seriously, I’m hard pressed to think of an instance in the last century where the US has intervened on the international stage and actually has a credible claim to having done good with the exception of World War II.
The government has created and fought for stability for a small subset of monied interests and has largely left the rest of us to jump for whatever table scraps they deign to let fall to us plebs. As @Nokinori mentions, even domestically, things are increasingly coming undone at the seams and looking ready to get worse.
I’m sure the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires would agree with you, haha.
Everyone should read their Project 2025 plan, they plan on consolidating power by firing or arresting any non Right winger in power or employed by the government, among many other fascistic power consolidation wet dreams:
https://www.heritage.org/conservatism/commentary/project-2025
https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2023/11/17/project-2025-democratic-doomsday/
https://www.advocate.com/news/project-2025-republicans-maga
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/16h9fqe/what_is_the_deal_with_project_2025/
I humbly request you post this in https://lemmy.cafe/c/benjamingetthemusket
Make the thread and I’ll pin it
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They pointed out that we on the left may have disagreed with McCain or Bush, but we never once feared that they would seize power or leave NATO.
They were saying all of the same things about W. Bush in 2004.
We trusted them to at least keep the ship afloat and respect the basic tenants of our free and democratic nation.
Not at all. The left viewed W. Bush as a wannabe dictator, not much different from how Trump is viewed now.
I viewed Bush as an incompetent moron with business cronies crawling in to every spot in his administration. I don’t recall people saying he was a wannabe dictator, he had at least some respect for the Constitution and the electoral process. Trump on the other hand, put extreme pressure on the DoJ to direct investigations away from him, minimize their impact or bury them as best as possible. His administration freaking extradited a convicted Russian agent back to her home country because she was funneling money and propaganda to the GOP through the NRA. Trump is a wannabe dictator, he didn’t get to be one because he didn’t have to spine to follow through with his coup because he knew he needed the thinnest amount of plausible deniability to give his GOP sycophants cover to justify letting him off the hook if it failed.
I did not view Bush at all like Trump. Really disliked his political takes on most things and thought he was embarrassingly dumb some times but it never ever even crossed my mind that he was a threat to the republic. And actually admired his composure and leadership after 9/11. They’re not even remotely comparable.
how about the opposite view: trump supporters feel Trump will be good. He will allow the USA to become much more independent and cut off paying for other nations’ wars. why should we pay for them? there is no need for america to be the guardian of democracy or anything. We just want to live god-fearing lives and raise good families. We don’t need the rest of the world. Our military can stomp out any invaders.
Well how about doing anything remotely Godly? I mean seriously, the stuff ol Jesus H Christ tried teaching y’all seems to have been completely missed. You lot would call him “Woke”.
I’m glad you stick to the “I’m a Christian” lark, as if there is a hell, you’ll be more than likely heading there.
He will allow the USA to become much more independent and cut off paying for other nations’ wars. He will allow the USA to become much more independent and cut off paying for other nations’ wars.
Kowtowing to countries like China and Russia, allowing them to win strategic victories, will make them more powerful and give them more influence on US politics. Ie. the US would become less independent.
You don’t become more independent by telling countries like China that you give up.
In the case of Ukraine, they’re one of the world’s top exporters of grain, which is in part why food prices have been rising globally.
We don’t need the rest of the world.
You do. The world has globalised. At least 40 million American jobs are directly reliant on exports. The rest of the world also produces stuff like oil. Fuel prices would skyrocket.
A lot of unprofitable stuff has also been moved overseas. It would cost money to make it in the US. Many resources are also rare in the US. Stuff like rare-earth elements. Good luck importing from countries which have signed deals with China, because they’re the new super power. Combined with de-dollarisation this would also cause massive issues, rampant inflation for example. You think it’s bad now? You ain’t seen nothing yet.
Our military can stomp out any invaders.
No one needs to invade the US. It’s cheaper to simply buy a candidate or blackmail him. This allows countries like China to push through legislation which favours their business and strategic interests. Eg. dropping support for Ukraine or dropping support of Taiwan so that China can take control of advance chip industries.
In the long term, the US would find it hard to sustain a huge military budget when facing economic turmoil and a debt crisis. Especially in relative terms. China has a population of 1.4 billion. If the US withdraws from the Asia-Pacific and Europe, they’re likely to become part of the Chinese sphere of influence. A country of 300 million, will inevitably be pushed around by a power bloc of 3 billion.
Of course, none of this will convince a Trump supporter, because most base their support on emotions not reason. And once they find they can’t afford to fill up on gas, or groceries, they’ll blame anyone but themselves.
Many resources are also rare in the US. Stuff like rare-earth elements.
This is actually incorrect. Rare-earth elements aren’t that rare, they’re just difficult to extract and the processes are worse on the environment than most types of mining
We just want to live god-fearing lives and raise good families.
And the main difference between us is that I don’t really care if you do that, while your friends will label my future family with two dads as a gross perversion that calls for state intervention in order to prevent the terrible abuse of a child having two loving parents that happen to both be men, as if it’s not abusive to raise a child under the terror of thinking that they’re always being watched and will be tortured for all eternity if they wind up being attracted to the same gender. But ultimately, that’s your life and I’ll leave you to it. I’d just ask for the same courtesy.
Well said. Personally I lost respect at “god-fearing.” What a silly notion. To feel the need to express it to strangers is also silly. Don’t talk about your religion unless I ask. We’re all the same until you make us different. And all the other beliefs were pretty unpleasant, so we’d still be different. Oh well.
It’s ironic that people who want to live “God-fearing lives” are basically choosing to worship the antichrist. Because that’s what Trump is. You know people by their actions, not whatever bull crap they spout to get reelected.
God fearing lives != raising good families
You have to pick one or the other.
You should be fearful of your god because if he’s real you’re fucked.
Admit it, you just have a fetish for being lied to.
Religion in a nutshell
We just want to live god-fearing lives
That’s a funny euphemism for “impose your delusions on the rest of society, violating their freedom from religion.”
Not necessarily. I believe in God but I don’t have a problem with Jews/Muslims/Atheists/Buddhists/etc
Then why vote for politicians that do want to trample on other people’s beliefs?
Fuck Trump. I’m not saying voting him is good.
I’m not claiming you’re voting for Trump. But voting for other Republicans because they (claim to) align with your religious views will only give Trump more power if he gets voted in
I don’t live in the USA, but if I did, I wouldn’t care what religion the president is unless he’d ban mine or sth.
And that’s the issue. That “we” represents fewer than half of Americans. The past three times Republicans have won has been only because a person in S. Dakota’s vote counts for more than a person in California.
Quite simply, he said he’d do all that in his first term and he didn’t.
Oh yeah living a God fearing life sounds amazing. Nothing I like more than constantly fearing an invisible sky person will send me to a fiery hell if I don’t constantly worship him.
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As another commenter rightfully pointed out - you don’t get to be independent and isolationist at the same time.
Indigenous island tribes may have had this luxury for a time, but once your nation is known by another nation, it’s compete or die.
China and various other countries would immediately start filling the power vacuum. Your standard of living would drop immensely and your grandchildren would be consuming Chinese culture within a decade or two at most. The American dollar, America’s total dominance in science/culture/medicine, the spread of the English language - these could all be wiped out fairly quickly if America just threw up its hands and said we were done.
What you’re suggesting would be like Apple saying they’re going to take it easy and just stick with the iPhone 15 for good. The result would be an immediate power grab and some other company would pull ahead, leaving Apple so far behind they’d never catch up again.
I’ll sigh, shake my head, and think, “That figures”. And then I’ll go to work, like every other day.
This but perhaps crippling depression as well.
This is the default answer
If we make plans, and post them on the internet, people start throwing around words like “premeditated” and it just makes things harder.
I love this. “We have a plan but we can’t tell you.”. Peak uselessness.
Sounds like the impeachment proceedings going on right now. That’s Reeepubs for ya.
Lose my last shred of faith in this country, mostly
Looool look at this guy, he still has some faith left
Kicking him out did restore a nonzero amount yes.
I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Absolutely
What the fuck can I do? Just be even more depressed about the state of the country
Not everyone has the luxury of uprooting their lives when a fascist comes.
Yeah so many in the thread are like “duh I just moved, easy”
Yeah ok easy for you
Wait till you hear about Latin America!
Wait till you hear about my beloved Argentina.
Yeah, few actually moved away when Biden was placed into power
to continue to live my life
How, when being targeted, jailed or killed under fascism?
I would simply shoot anyone who attempted to do any of that to me or anyone else in my care. We should all be prepared to defend ourselves, rather than give in to oppression.
#iamverybadass
You’re damn right. I’m the kind of man that most men wish they could be.
Trump isn’t going to target everyone. It’s literally impossible for him to do that.
Not all at once. Fascists target a series of out groups, starting with the most marginalized, making the in group smaller and smaller. The more of the rich white cisgender heterosexual Christian male boxes you check, the further down the list you probably are, but you will be targeted eventually.
Assumes he gets a third term, though, and that will not happen without a civil war or massive protests unrest. It also ignores the amount of legal challenges he’ll get, and the Supreme Court can’t rule on all of them.
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Chill out, dude. I’m not voting for a Republican in a state or national election any time soon. I’m of the opinion that Trump is a puppet controlled by other Republicans given the fact that Angela Merkel had to explain to Trump 11 times that he has to make trade deals with the EU and not Germany.
The fact that you resort to insults first and communication last (just like hardcore Republicans, by the way) is what’s gonna make the left lose elections and make America worse off.
I am not so sure he is such a puppet. Care to explain? A lot of high flying republicans seem to fear him.
From my limited knowledge of other Republicans, they probably fear his influence and reach. The thing about Trump, though, is that every time I read a recollection of some high-level conversation between him and another qualified official, he always seems clueless. For example, in a 2021 interview, Fauci said that Trump would believe personal anecdotes from “friends” despite Fauci explaining multiple times that anecdotes are less trustworthy than scientific studies:
It was always, “A guy called me up, a friend of mine from blah, blah, blah.” That’s when my anxiety started to escalate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/24/health/fauci-trump-covid.html
He’s a puppet because he lacks media literacy and lacks an understanding of logical reasoning, and as a result, he’s easily manipulated by other people with stuff like conspiracy theories. Republicans might fear him because he will win. I fear him because he will make bad decisions not purely out of malice but out of a lack of due diligence and understanding of the effects of his actions.
Take a shot for every comment saying “Move to Canada” :)
Move to Canada
Move to Canada
Move to Canada
Move to Canada
RIP, Lemminary.
Move to Canada
Move to Canada
Move to Canada
Go easy dude, you’re gonna kill him.
I thought that was the point?
Just giving him a head start
Move to Canada
As much of a joke as it is, that’s a real option for me. Won’t pull the trigger on day one, but you bet your ass I’ll be ready to go at a moments notice.
The only problem I have with moving is, I have this feeling you can’t escape politics by doing that. The problem is social media dividing everyone and pushing extremism. Surely that is everywhere?
Oh yeah because it’s that easy to just pack up and move to a country that doesn’t want you.
Exactly. I would’ve left this country years ago if it was that simple. I can’t afford to vacation in Canada, let alone move there, and I live in a northern state.
You think you’re… you’re BETTER than me?! Huh?!
Sashay to french canaday
Watch Democrats blame people they were actively hostile towards for not enthusiastically waiting for hours in the cold to vote for them.
Then watch the world’s longest-running uninterrupted democracy with the world’s largest military and the world’s largest nuclear arsenal become a fascist dictatorship. Maybe I’ll die quickly and have a chance to be envied.
Fix your messaging, Dems. Pretend he’s a progressive and oppose him.
ackchtually russia has the most nukes
Honestly, just point to his examples of government overreach! Heck if Dems really wanted to hurt him, do some overreach that they want to do anyway and make sure that they thank the man, heck say without him this would be impossible and that if we don’t take advantage of it someone else will!
Just go hard on red flag laws, just use those bad boys up on all of their opponents, and say “Trump was awful for a lot of things, but thank god he got some of the strongest anti gun laws on the books in decades, without him, we couldn’t have gone after this dangerous far right militia, he really made this inevitable.”
Just go hard on red flag laws,
Democrats don’t “go hard” on anything.
I imagine a number of famous people will talk about how they’re moving to Canada, and don’t.
The same plan I have every election, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD.
To prove our mousey worth and overthrow the Earth.
Fortunate enough to also have EU citizenship, so I’ve already made arrangements to leave the country in that case. Will keep voting from overseas, though.
Inb4 voting from overseas becomes illegal as a result of some rage filled GOP bill about illegals
Republicans are trying their damnedest to make voting illegal and/or overly burdensome even within the United States, so good luck there.
Why would you leave because of this though?
I’m just not interested in living in the US under a second Trump presidency. Such a presidency would run against everything I stand for and against everything I want for myself, my family, and my kids.
I hear you but that’s a bit dramatic. Imagine if everybody who disagreed with the presidential vote just ran away…
Trump is openly spouting fascist talking points and his followers are cheering him on. This is not a normal election.
Trump is an insane narcissist and he’s been talking like a fascist for a long time. And he has a lot of supporters who are willing to go to extremes to defend him. To me, he’s a symptom of an extremely unhealthy society, and I think a lot of people would leave under a second Trump presidency if they could.
I can, so I will if that happens.
Shrug
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From the outside the whole thing seemed to be an absolute circus act. People getting increasingly polarised, constant (pretty much daily) news about something fucking stupid he’s either said, done or something disgusting one of his cronies had been involved in.
Glad it is amusing for you.
Probably get sent to a concentration camp. Dunno if California will secede from the union to preserve human rights, if it comes between secession or letting the DHS collect all our immigrants and non-trad women.
Nah California won’t leave. It is about power structure. Since leaving has no chance of success no one running things will go along with it.
Yeah, you’re right. What I can see California do, assuming it wants to stay a progressive bulwark, is act like Texas when Texas is feeling independent, and start asserting legal resistance to its contribution to federal revenues. Also, the legalization of cannabis is getting pushed through independent states unwilling to enforce federal law or cooperate with federal law enforcement. California may just do that, forcing the federal government to send its agents to do its own policing.
This is going to be an interesting civil war.
So they make a lot of noise significant of nothing. Also can you really see Cali national guard willing to fire on the US troops? I know I would refuse that order and let whatever happened to me happened to me, because yeah I don’t want certain death.
There has to be a chance of winning and outright revolt doesn’t have that chance. Texas morons make a lot of noise but they don’t do anything. Cannabis is not comparable since it was just states refusing to enforce federal law not them nullifying it. We already know what happens when the federal government does immigration roundups, they do it all the time and no state opposes it.
It would be fascinating to see if US troops would be willing to fire on California national guard. Do you imagine the US Army or the USMC would be willing to face off against Americans on American soil? We don’t know if generals would give the order, questioning its legality, and we’re also not sure boots on the ground would be willing to fire against their own countrymen.
Of course the Heritage Foundation is already trying to change this by rotating out those loyal to the United States with those loyal to the GOP and the Christian Nationalist movement.
But yes, several states already don’t cooperate with the CBP or ICE, and we get regular reports of the atrocities committed by both departments. ICE is, interestingly, part of DHS and was created after the DHS was founded as immigrant hunters, and commits the same kind of misconduct that was routine in the Sicherheitsdienst. Law enforcement throughout the US is already captured, even if the state national guards are not. (And after George W. Bush’s efforts to create an army of Christ within our ranks, they might be compromised as well. But I haven’t followed the program that far.)
Seek help, you’ve been radicalized
What nonsense. Do you actually believe in those fantasy hysterics?
I already moved. It’s not just Trump that’s the problem, and even if he loses in 2024, or does in office, the issues still will persist. America needs to figure out how to make the judicial system work properly and norms need to be codified. Vast swaths of the population need to change their culture of “us vs them”.
I won’t be going back, the way things work with Republicans, you can’t just move to a blue state, you have to move out of the country.
Where’d you land, out of curiosity?
A quick
doxxingsearch of OP’s comment history suggests New Zealand❤️
Thank you for allowing me to delegate my stalking
No problem, Eric
Great solution
Set up monthly donations to the ACLU and Planned Parenthood, volunteer as a PP escort, open up my (Illinois) home to women and families who need to travel for reproductive healthcare.
This isn’t off the top of my head, my spouse and I discussed it years ago, before the previous election.
