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Darn that science, keep that liberal where it belongs, in the humanities.
Go Stephanie!
Reading the discussions and some of the disagreements, a correction is needed to be more precise.
Some XX people will be Assigned Male At Birth. Some XY people will be Assigned Female At Birth.
Dunning-Kruger reminds me of this one president and his cabinet.
People who see gender as a F or M binary in 2025 are willingly ignorant to the bone.
Critically thinking now, how strong is the evidence here?
Those are two real medical diagnoses - Swyer syndrome or XY gonadal dysgenesis for XY women (occurs in about 1:100000 women) and de la Chapelle syndrome or XX male syndrome for XX men (occurs in about 1:20000 to 1:30000 men)
Here is a NORD report on Swyer syndrome, as well as the original article on de la Chapelle syndrome: 1.https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/ 2.https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1762158/
“It’s basic biology” mfs when advanced biology
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thee are only 2 atoms in the universe: hydrogen (74%) and helium (24%). so you’re either a Hydrogen, a Helium or have a syndrome
Oh yes, I very sure we can compare atoms with humans. Maybe inside the sun a man can become a woman and vice-versa
They’re pointing out the stupidity of your argument, since it depends on ignoring the fact that the remaining 5% exist, in the same way that classifying everything as those two elements requires ignoring the fact that the other 1% of matter exists
deleted by creator
are you a preschooler?
then hydrogen can become helium and helium can become hydrogen, right?
yes, are you going to use “basic physics” too??
Welp, honest mistake. For some reason I thought hydrogen and helium can only create other atoms, not become eachother.
Still, my point stands, humans are no atoms
but humans are chromosomes apparently?
Well yeah, literally you are shaped by your genome
Your genome also shapes your scoliosis, but I don’t see anyone keeping you away from the whirligig inversion table.
XY it’s man, XX it’s woman, nothing will ever change that…
I think it’s really funny you left out the exact intersex conditions that disprove your point, Swyer syndrome and de la Chapelle syndrome.
You are either a man, a woman, or you have a syndrome
So someone with de la Chapelle syndrome is neither a man nor a woman but has a syndrome? ‘Man’ and ‘woman’ are social categories and syndrome is not, so this makes no sense. Also I doubt you’d be able to spot the ‘syndrome’ in a group of men.
It’s a delusion to believe that you can change your biological sex during your lifetime.
This is a strawman I see repeated a lot. I’ve never seen trans advocates claim this, only opponents. Even then I would still argue that it is true to some extent. Sex is not just chromosomes (as proven by the two conditions I linked above). It’s made up of many different characteristics and you can change some of them, e.g. with hormone replacement therapy, which changes some secondary sex characteristics. Or even just gynecomastia does it too.
For people who are interested in what the actual science says about this topic I recommend Forrest Valkai’s new Sex and Sensibility video (warning, it’s long).
Edit:
And no, you won’t change speech, you are a man and a he, a woman and a she. That’s it, you can get as angry as you want, nothing will ever change that.
Language is completely made up and changes all the time. But you’re claiming it will never change again?
I think it’s really funny you left out the exact intersex conditions that disprove your point, Swyer syndrome and de la Chapelle syndrome.
And again, those are conditions, not something you choose to be, you are simply born like that.
So someone with de la Chapelle syndrome is neither a man nor a woman but has a syndrome?
Well than, waht is someone with Chappel syndrome?
Sex is not just chromosomes (as proven by the two conditions I linked above)
Oh yes, it’s also the malformations that you were born with
with hormone replacement therapy, which changes some secondary sex characteristics. Or even just gynecomastia does it too.
oh so you need drugs to mimic traits from the opposite sex (there are only two after all) and gender is given by your sex.
Forrest Valkai’s new Sex and Sensibility video (warning, it’s long).
I am actually gonna watch this
Language is completely made up and changes all the time. But you’re claiming it will never change again?
Yes, language is not “made up” it evolved and will evolve naturally, demanding language to change to cater to you is not natural.
You’re approaching this discussion from a place of certainty, but the reality of biology, language, and human variation is more complex than the rigid model you’re presenting.
A few key points:
- If sex is strictly XX = woman and XY = man, how do you explain the people who don’t fit that?
1 in 50 people has a variation of sex development (VSD). That’s not an anomaly, but a substantial population.
Genetic chimerism, which is rarely tested for, suggests as many as 12% of people have mixed chromosomal expressions—that’s 3 in every 25 people who do not neatly fit XX or XY.
Any woman who has ever had a child is a genetic chimera, because she retains some of her child’s DNA, meaning many women carry male DNA within their bodies.
If sex were as simple as XX/XY, these biological realities wouldn’t exist. But they do, and they complicate the notion that sex is an unchangeable binary.
- If hormones don’t affect biological sex, why do they permanently alter the body?
Puberty is a hormonal process. It reshapes bodies, voices, muscle structure, brain development, and reproductive function.
If sex were truly “fixed,” introducing testosterone or estrogen wouldn’t fundamentally change these same traits in adults. But it does.
So which is it? If hormones don’t influence sex, then puberty doesn’t matter either. If they do, then transitioning alters biological characteristics in ways that contradict your claims.
- If language is purely “natural evolution,” why has it been deliberately changed by societies and governments throughout history?
Modern Italian was not a natural evolution—it was imposed on Italy’s diverse dialects by the state.
After WWI, German was banned in schools and public institutions in parts of the U.S.
The French government has actively tried to suppress regional languages like Breton and Occitan to enforce a singular linguistic identity.
These weren’t “organic” shifts—they were deliberate policy changes. If language only changes on its own, these documented historical events should not have been possible.
If entire nations have altered their linguistic structures through conscious intervention, why would the evolution of gendered language be any different?
- You argue that intersex people are “rare,” but rarity does not erase reality.
Left-handed people make up about 10% of the population—a minority, but we don’t dismiss their existence because they aren’t the majority.
The number of people with red hair is lower than the percentage of intersex people, yet no one claims red hair is “unnatural.”
Statistical frequency doesn’t determine what is real. Something doesn’t need to be common to be biologically significant.
- The pattern in your responses suggests you are more emotionally invested in this topic than you claim.
You’ve repeatedly expressed personal relief that trans people are not common in your area. That’s not a neutral scientific observation—that’s a personal bias.
You dismiss contradictory biological realities by calling them “defects” rather than engaging with what they actually mean.
You insist this discussion is about “logic,” yet when presented with genetic, medical, and linguistic evidence, you shift the argument rather than addressing the inconsistencies.
If you want to engage with this topic honestly, you’ll have to account for these contradictions instead of sidestepping them. If your argument is strong, it should be able to withstand scrutiny. If it can’t, then maybe the issue isn’t with the facts—it’s with the assumptions you started with.
And again, those are conditions, not something you choose to be, you are simply born like that.
I was pointing out how XX doesn’t always mean female and XY doesn’t always mean male. I didn’t say you could change your chromosomes. I think you might be misunderstanding the OP. When it says ‘some XX people become cis men’ it means that embryos with XX chromosomes develop into cis men, not that they decide to be later in life.
Well than, waht is someone with Chappel syndrome?
Usually a man.
Oh yes, it’s also the malformations that you were born with
How do you differentiate between “normal” and a malformation? These are just arbitrary categories we made up. The reality is that we can observe that some humans just are like that and that’s fine and normal.
oh so you need drugs to mimic traits from the opposite sex (there are only two after all) and gender is given by your sex.
You’re moving the goalposts. You were arguing that you can’t change sex and now you’re retreating to ‘you need drugs to change sex’, which is true for HRT, but not necessarily for gynecomastia.
It’s also not “mimicking” traits. Someone with gynecomastia or someone who takes feminising HRT grows the same kind of breasts as a cis woman.
Yes, language is not “made up” it evolved and will evolve naturally, demanding language to change to cater to you is not natural.
Even if this was true it would just be an appeal to nature. Natural doesn’t mean good and unnatural doesn’t mean bad.
But I don’t think you can differentiate between ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’ changes to language. Do you think language just evolves on its own without any human interference? Language is by definition something we do.
I think you might be misunderstanding the OP.
Yes, I actually was
How do you differentiate between “normal” and a malformation?
If you need special care or attention that is a malformation. If there is a change in your physionomy that impedes you to have a life as normal as other human (you were born without a hand) that’s a malformation.
You were arguing that you can’t change sex and now you’re retreating to ‘you need drugs to change sex’
I was actually arguing that you can’t change your genome, so yeah, sex. But by HRT you still don’t change that, you just try to mimic traits oposite of yours.
Do you think language just evolves on its own without any human interference? Language is by definition something we do.
Of course language can be influenced, but usually when it is, it’s for ease of understanding, and generally making people lives better.
By changing the language just for some people to be triggered because they were “misgendered” you don’t bring any value
If you need special care or attention that is a malformation. If there is a change in your physionomy that impedes you to have a life as normal as other human (you were born without a hand) that’s a malformation.
This doesn’t apply to many of the intersex conditions we talked about. They can present in a way where people don’t even notice they have them.
I was actually arguing that you can’t change your genome, so yeah, sex. But by HRT you still don’t change that, you just try to mimic traits oposite of yours.
We’ve already established that genome doesn’t exclusively determine sex. An XX male could live their entire life as a man and never even know that they have XX and not XY chromosomes.
Of course language can be influenced, but usually when it is, it’s for ease of understanding, and generally making people lives better. By changing the language just for some people to be triggered because they were “misgendered” you don’t bring any value
It brings value to the people who are affected. And we do this sort of thing a lot. Just like almost nobody says the n-word any more because we’ve collectively decided that it’s inappropriate.
Honestly it feels like you’re doing all these mental gymnastics just so you can have a justification for being rude to trans people. Is that really how you want to spend your energy?
I agree with Dr. Jey McCreight on the science.
But for determining truth, both sides are wrong here.
Dunning-Kruger is bad, but so is credentialism and appeal to authority.
Many people with PhD’s have had Dunning-Kruger. Someone else mentioned Ben Carson being great at neurosurgery, but not politics.
A PhD doesn’t make you infallible.
I am saying this as someone who is taking graduate-level courses and will be pursuing my PhD. When I’m correct, it’s not because my future PhD causes reality to magically conform to my opinions - it’s because I rigorously looked at the evidence, logic, and formed my own conclusion that better aligns with reality.
Okay but what is good engagement against “follow the science” aside from “I literally DO the science”? Dr. McCreight offered a point and was met with “nuh uh” so at that point it can hardly be called an argument or debate. Do those fallacies honestly matter at that point when one refuses to engage with tangible points of discussion?
You can even be incorrect on a subject you have expertise in.
that’s why we have peer reviews for new findings by experts.
Exactly, imagine if we threw away the entire peer review process and made it about, “Well I have a PhD! Checkmate.”
We’d descend into a dark age for science.
Experts often disagree.
If it were that easy, everything would be solved. We wouldn’t need so much research or so many universities.
If one hasn’t fallen victim to Dunning-Kruger, then they have not advanced their knowledge in any meaningful capacity.
I agree, but respectfully, I’m not sure what this has to do with my comment. 😭
…and all in between, hormonal and/or physically. “Only two genders” is false
The phrase is funny but you wouldn’t catch me dead wearing a logical fallacy
Can I interest you in a logical phallus?
Wouldn’t that be a logic probe?
To be fair, a Person with a PhD still can have Dunning-Kruger on other subjects.
Ben Carson is a great Neurosurgeon, but dumbass on politics.
Even Noble Prize winners are surprisingly often affected by this -> wikipedia:Noble disease
Neil deGrasse Tyson and literally anything other than astrophysics
And sometimes also astrophysics
I guees it needs (relevant) inserted?
Yeah, both sides are wrong here.
Dunning-Kruger is bad, but so is credentialism and appeal to authority.
I think a lot of these XX XY “only two genders” people aren’t just dunning Kruger, they’re transphobic idiots with an agenda. So even if they had the science and knowledge it wouldn’t matter because they’re pushing their hateful stupid agenda, facts and logic be damned. They don’t care, they just want to rationalize hating us trans people because we make them uncomfy.
Tell us what the 3rd gender is please.
~95% of all animals in the world, including humans, are gonochoric, have only 2 sexes.
Turner syndrome and klinfelter syndrome are exatly that, syndromes
Gender is not sex. Have you ever, in good faith, talked to a trans person? Have you ever, in good faith, talked to an intersex person?
I keep hearing this. If gender is not sex than gender is not real, you can be whatever you want whenever you want, right?
Still, if a dudes is a dude it’s a he, if a woman is a woman it’s a she.
The only time I would actually bother ask someone what they like to be called is if they have an intersex condition. That’s it.
Have you ever, in good faith, talked to a trans person?
Yes, it was the exactly stereotypical “call me mam” hairy dude. Yeah, that’s never gonna happen. First time in my life I told someone to never talk with me and pretend I don’t exist. I don’t want to interact with these kind of lunatics.
Have you ever, in good faith, talked to an intersex person?
No but I would love too, that seems genuinely interesting. I’d have so many questions to ask
If gender is not sex than gender is not real, you can be whatever you want whenever you want, right?
How does “you can chose” make something not real? Also, it doesn’t appear to be a conscious effort to be trans. Do you really think trans people go through all that just for the fun of it?
Still, if a dudes is a dude it’s a he, if a woman is a woman it’s a she.
And if a women is not a woman and starts HRT and everything, he’s a dude. You’re exactly right!
The only time I would actually bother ask someone what they like to be called is if they have an intersex condition. That’s it.
Can you tell that just by looking at people?
Yes, it was the exactly stereotypical “call me mam” hairy dude.
What if it was someone who visually fit in your expectation? Would you treat them with basic respect? Can you tell me the sex of each of those people?
No but I would love too, that seems genuinely interesting. I’d have so many questions to ask
Wouldn’t it be interesting to talk to a trans person, too? Understand their perspective? Maybe you already met someone intersex but called them slurs and walked off because you thought they might be trans.
Your baseless hate for trans people only brings evil into this world. Maybe try giving people a chance. We’re all human.
Do you really think trans people go through all that just for the fun of it? I honestly think they have mental problems that won’t be solved by mutilating themselves. It’s not me to make that decision for them and it’s their body but I try to keep myself as far away as possible.
And if a women is not a woman and starts HRT and everything, he’s a dude.
What do you mean a woman is not a woman?
Can you tell that just by looking at people?
Most likely not, but by interacting with people, yes.
Can you tell me the sex of each of those people?
Only from faces? Most likely not. First pic looks like a woman, second like a man, 3rd pic that dude might be a woman, 4th the dude is a woman and 5th I have no damn idea
called them slurs
I don’t call people slurs mate, I just avoid interaction.
Exactly. They just don’t care. They’re not necessarily ignorant and participating in good faith.
They’re guaranteed to not be participating in good faith if they’re angrily debating sex and gender like that.
Is there some third gender that trans people can transition to that I’m unaware of? I’m afraid I don’t follow the whole situation all too well sorry. My partner has some transgender family members, but i’ve never i’ve seen anyone that isn’t male to female or female to male. I guess non binary exists, but doesn’t that mean no gender or both?
I’m afraid I don’t know much on the subject It’s unfortunate.
The current doctrine is that there are unlimited genders, if you can think of one you can call yourself that, they call them “neopronouns” and aren’t simply relegated to xe/xer but include things like wolfkin and dragonfucker. There’s also plurals which to the best of my understanding feel like there’s multiple people usually with multiple neopronouns inside their head simultaneously.
I’m not either of these so maybe someone who is can elaborate better, but that’s what I’ve been told and I hope it helps.
Note how they always enshrine gender in biology, but then make all kinds of non-biological statements about what gender is.
“XX is woman”/“Large gametes is woman”/“can conceive is woman”
And then they’ll say
“Women aren’t as aggressive”, “women are more emotional”, “women like being in the home more”, “those are women’s clothes”, etc.
The only reason it’s so important for it to be biological is because of how it punishes gender non-conformity and makes the lives of trans people hell. Like it isn’t ideologically consistent and they know that. They just don’t care. If it was just about genitals or chromosomes, then why is it that gender dictates all these social things about us? The only reason to root gender in how you were born is to ensure gender roles are as rigid and immutable as possible.
how it punishes
gendernon-conformityFit the mold or die. Always the same.
Without a purity test how can I tell which members of the tribe are loyal and which might betray me?
Does it float?
The only reason to root gender in how you were born is to ensure gender roles are as rigid and immutable as possible.
This, this right here, that’s the game, that’s the whole game. They want to punish transness and then start changing what the definition of trans is.
“Your daughter was wearing pants, and said no when my boy asked her out, that’s trans behavior and it’s unAmerican, might have to report you to a correction agency if this shit doesn’t stop.”
Aren’t there more than two sexes in biology?
Yes, there are many species that have more than 2 sexes. Those are decided by scientific consensus.
But sex is ultimately a category to describe the process of reproduction. By definition, this is exclusionary. It’s why conservatives fumble so much when trying to describe sex in terms of actual definitions. Inherently, it is not possible to fit every person into a table of 2 columns in that way. Sex is not a binary because human beings are not binary. There is an incredible amount of variation in our bodies.
Relating to humans?
Yes but they are mutations (e. g. XXY, XXX, etc.) that often give rise to numerous biological problems or death.I don’t know if there are species that require more than two sexes to propagate. I never head of them.
You are vastly underestimating the prevalence of chromosomal variations. They are common, especially among cis women.
I like the way you phrased that at the end. Sexes are categories that relate exclusively to the concept of progeny. If you’re not able to reproduce, you’re already kind of excluded from the sex binary. If we break the human concept of sex down to its constituent parts, it is just “can procreate”. The categories are useful in some contexts, but to state them as universal or to try and extrapolate them so widely is significantly disruptive and unhelpful. Humans are and always have been more than our reproductive anatomy. Your doctor and anyone you want to reproduce with are really the only people who need to know whether you fit into either category.
XY is a mutation, genius
Im thinking creatures that propagate via asexual reproduction might not fit the male/female sex binary and intersex might not as well?
Correct on both counts. To make it even better, there exist some creatures that primarily mate and reproduce sexually, but can also reproduce asexually if the situation requires it - I think ants, and some reptiles, if I remember right.
But that’s not more that two sexes. It’s the same number or less. A hermaphrodite isn’t a third sex, it’s two sexes side by side and a sexless cellular organism has exactly one sex.
The distinction male/female is usually determined by measuring the size of the gametes. Female gametes are the bigger ones (e. g. ovum) and male gametes are the smaller ones (e. g. spermatozoon). There are organisms where the gametes of both sexes have the same size. So technically they have two sexes but don’t fit the categories male and female.
But wouldn’t the asexual reproducing animal that is one sex be neither male or female and thus is a third?
Sex in the sense that we have been talking about it here is in reference to mammals. The moment you wander outside of the mammalian class of vertebrates these concepts of sex start to become far less applicable.
There are many birds that have more than 2 sexes. Reptiles and invertebrates as well. Asexual reproduction would be classed as it’s own sex apart from any male/female system.
Confidently incorrect is the default with these people. I spend most of my time with family aggressively correcting misinformation about my field and related ones. They will die earlier thinking they know more because of Youtube. Getting them to stop taking bad health advice and mystery joint injections from a fucking chiropractor is the latest battle.
The impression of legitimacy enjoyed by chiropractic is too damn high. I was well into my 20s before I ever heard a single word about it being pseudoscience. Walking around (usually on people’s fucking spines) calling themselves doctors, I absolutely believed it was just some sub-variety of physiotherapy, which I guess is the point. In the whole universe of alternative medicine, I think that has to be the practice which has most effectively disguised itself as conventional medicine. It’s gross.
I walked in to a chiropractors’ office once to try and see if they’d take me for an appointment, found a brochure proudly proclaiming that chiropractic treatments can help cure autism and cancer, and turned right the fuck around and walked back out.
If you think you need a chiropractor you actually need a physical therapist and anyone trying to tell you otherwise is lying to you.
One of my mates goes to a chiro. The rest of us detail for him how our problems were helped by physios and they were fixed, and stayed fixed, while he needs to see a chiro every 3 months for just exactly the same problems
He describes himself as an idiot, and I believe him. He still goes to a chiro.
Australia has high respect for chiropractic because the King likes them, and when he was a prince he was pretty influential too. No idea why it would be popular outside the Commonwealth
In Australia they are able to request some x-rays. As in the entire spine, which ends up irradiating radio-sensitive organs like the thyroid and ovaries, often in young people. As a radiographer this shit drives me up the fucking wall, especially given the already frustrating battles over inappropriate imaging requests from real, actual doctors. Want to know a contributing factor to the increase in cancers? The absolutely absurd radiation doses people are sucking up over years of over-imaging.
The way chiropractic plays itself as the cure all for any ailment with regular “adjustments” is the real bullshit, it’s straight up a sales pitch to get people in a recurring schedule for that sweet appointment revenue. Don’t get me wrong, when I’ve thrown my back out the best and most immediate relief I’ve found is to have the guy super twist and crack my back loose just so I can get some mobility to stretch and walk. But the way they sell it as you need several appointments a week to stay “regular” is a crock of shit.
The quackness of chiropractors depends on where you are, in many places it’s indeed just a type of physiotherapy, or better put you have to be a physio to be a chiropractor. Similarly, in practically all of the world osteopaths are quacks while in the US they’re doing evidence-based medicine with particular philosophical accents.
They provided me valuable placebo (I think). I still have no idea what my issue really was, but at least it’s gone. Never been back to a chiropractor since though.
I find irony that they disregard expert opinions on the things they are experts for (climate scientists for example) but will accept an entire worldview of opinions based on someone being “smart” like the opinion of a software engineer has on philosophy or politics.
Reject the expert on the subject they’re an expert on because that makes them “elite” and they were trained to think that was bad, but accept an unfounded opinion of someone who may be smart in an unrelated field because the opinion is “different” so it must be “smart”
I think this is the trap all self assigned internet intellectuals fall into. They parrot opinions and vibes from echo chambers that discredit real science or real reporting and call it enlightenment. This in itself is stupid, but then even more stupid people are drawn in and suddenly we have a big club of geniuses
Just curious, is this chiro actually injecting something into their joints? Or is it like pretend injections, like with that magic gun thing that makes a click but doesn’t actually do anything?
