It can sometimes be hard to separate the artist from their art. Are there any artists who were bad people but whose work you still enjoy?
Feel free to answer if you’re in the opposite scenario: an artist who you love personally but don’t enjoy their artwork.
Feel free to respond more than just music artists!
Tom Cruise. I don’t know what weird pathways cross in a brain to get that deep into Scientology without realizing what bullshit it is, but he is an amazing actor. He understands the craft, he is not shy about poking fun of himself, and by all accounts he is a consummate professional and treats the film crew well and has given gifts/thrown parties for them, etc.
But Scientology, yeesh…
HP Lovecraft - great writer, horrible racist
Similarly, Orson Scott Card - Ender’s game and its sequel are great, but he’s a raging homophobe.
I’m convinced that Orson Scott Card suffered a traumatic head injury at some point. I don’t know how you could go from writing something as beautiful and intimate as Ender’s Game to shit like Hidden Empire, which is creepy right wing Christian disaster porn (from what I can remember of that trainwreck).
I mean, by present standards, most people historically would have been pretty racist.
He was certainly above that. Hell his story “Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and His Family” also known as “White Ape”. Is literally a book about the “one drop rule” to the point its actually funny because of how absurd it comes off as. Its so insanely racist, it fucking becomes funny based on the character’s reaction. Its not a great short story but basically he find out his great great great great grandmother was a “white ape” (which is not human per say but lets read between the lines since the white apes come from the congo region), his response to this news was pouring gasoline on himself and burning himself alive. Like yes its fiction but the fact he made a fucking short story where the focal point is discovering that you are mixed race and learning that is so mind breaking, death was the only logical option is god damn hilarious.
Indeed, though Lovecraft has the distinction of being pretty racist even for his time.
JK Rowling 😔
I really enjoyed Ender’s Game, but even while reading you can tell there’s some weird racist shit going on in Orson Card’s head.
I missed it, but I was in my early teens when I read it. What did you spot?
It’s been a while so I don’t remember anything concrete, but I remember characters being described with a strange amount of detail in racial or ethnic features, like height or nose shape. I don’t think he ever explicitly describes any race as superior to others, but some of the passages felt like it was going to devolve into some weird analysis of skull dimpling or something.
I searched it up a bit, and apparently Card is pretty vehemently homophobic. Which really sucks and is really strange. It sucks because i do enjoy his books, and they were honestly part of what got me into sci-fi. It’s really strange though since the moral of pretty much every single book of his is understanding, empathy, and compassion.
Yeah he donates a lot of money to anti-lgbt (or “homophobia-adjacent”) “special interest groups”.
So that means a hard no for me paying for anything he gets royalties for.
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I would say Kevin Spacey. The man can act: Usual suspects, Seven, first season of House Of Cards. Shame how he turned out.
I love Tom Cruise. The man is an amazing, committed actor. He doesn’t need flashy CGI or visual effects and he does insane stunts for our entertainment. Too bad he’s a fucking nutjob.
Except his movies use a lot of flashy CGI and visual effects. Sure, he does his own stunts, but there isn’t any less CGI in his movies than any other.
Oh, Ayn Rand!
Wait a second, no, I hate her work too.
I’m out of the loop, what did she do?
A lot?
Tom Cruise is the easy answer for obvious, cultist, related reasons. And as much as I love Donnie Yen in basically everything he has ever done, he is a hardcore CCP shill at best and there is a LOT of really creepy and questionable shit in his casting and “writing” that makes me wonder when he fucks up so bad that even China cares.
But, generally, the rule that a friend “coined” is: How bad are they compared to Mel Gibson? And while that is mostly a “funny” way to look at stuff, it is also useful to keep in mind regarding the different scale of assholes. And it also depends on what they are bad about.
Also, I still like pro wrestling. That shit is a minefield.
But to provide an answer that didn’t seem to come up yet:
Nobuhiro Watsuki. Creator of Rurouni Kenshin and such a pedophile that even the Japanese government gave a shit (and… just spend five minutes on the fifth floor of any manga shop and you’ll understand how massively fucked of a scale that is. Or walk down the streets of Akihabara at night).
But also? The Rurouni Kenshin anime is still one of the GOATs… for the Kyoto arc. Even if there is a lot of shit in the arcs surrounding it and the overall story of Kenshin that REALLY makes a lot of sense when you understand how evil the creator is… And the live action adaptations are a must watch for any fan of action movies because it is probably still the greatest blend of wire work, fight choreography, and “style” to ever exist (I hear the Yu Yu Hakusho live action taps into the same vein).
One of those things where I will be a lot happier when that piece of shit is dead and unable to benefit from sales.
Graham Lineham was controversial for years before he was ‘cancelled’. A prime example of a talented writer who needed a PR team to keep him away from the general public.
Father Ted, Black Books, IT Crowd. These are all gems that I always enjoy rewatching.
This one is really a shame. Anything with his name on it used to be guaranteed laughs, but now I see the name and it feels tainted.
John Lennon was pure asshole. He abused his first wife, who he only married because his manager didn’t want one of these new starts to father and illegitimate child. And that child, he tormented and ignored. Second wife, second child, both wanted and given everything.
Not saying he’s a saint, but isn’t an alternative interpretation that he was young, inexperienced, and had a bad relationship, then grew up, learned some things, and had a better relationship later? Julian Lennon was on Bill Maher’s podcast recently and described a reconciliation between him and his dad right before he died.
Again, not trying to excuse all his bad behavior in his first marriage, but I also don’t think that a failed relationship is enough evidence to judge a whole life by, especially one that was under extraordinary pressure.
He himself admitted he was an abuser of people in his life. Both male and female. Sure, people see that as him atoning for those past abuses. But it is clear he wasn’t this nice person people think of when they think of his anti-war and peace stance in life.
Iirc, while Beatles management did encourage Lennon and Cynthia Powell to get married, they were instructed to keep the marriage and child private for a
period of time. They were trying to lean into the “boy band” desirability, and they must have figured a married father isn’t someone young women feel comfortable pining over. Of course, Cynthia and Julian didn’t stay a secret forever though.
This thread has already mentioned a lot of artists I was already going to mention…and I’ll add a semi-recent one for me, Scott Adams. I started reading Dilbert while I was still learning to read and my exposure to it helped me recover from my literacy anxiety (which I sometimes still have to an extent). I’ve mentioned a bit of my associations of it in previous posts but to recap, my mom worked at another “Baby Bell” company, Nynex, later Bell Atlantic then Verizon, (like Scott who worked at Pacific Bell and Dilbert and friends who worked at an unnamed company implied to be in the telecom sector) I liked the simplistic designs a lot, as well as the introduction of new vocabulary. I soon started making my own comic strips. Scott Adams’ views on race, medicine, politics and several other subjects are perplexing. If I could logically follow them, I’d be offended. My dad’s high school experience was diminished by segregation apologists during Boston bussing mandates of the 1970s when they would protest at school campuses. The fact that Adams was on board with such a stupid practice in that infamous vlog is upsetting. Then again, Adams is a contrarian so I can’t be sure if he sincerely feels that way, especially since he tweeted something afterwards saying “I’m not actually bothered by black people. I am actually just annoyed by white people who advocate for black people” (paraphrase). Maybe it’s a true clarification or maybe he’s just trying to walk back his statements. He needs help. There’s probably something traumatic in his life that made him snap. Off hand, I know his wife filed for divorce from him and his stepson died of an overdose, and he may still be mourning in a strange way. Still, if I see Dilbert merch at a secondhand shop or in the library, I’d gladly take them out. I will not subscribe to his new pay-walled comic, but if his distributors and publishers ever decide to re-sign their contracts with him and start printing new Dilbert books again, I may buy them. Anecdotally print publishers seem to do more vetting than web publishers, so I’d hope that if they ever reunite he’d be in the right headspace. Anyway, great comic, troubled person. Hope the guy gets some help.
I got in to Dilbert Young, too. I don’t know why it appealed to me exactly, but I started reading his comic strips around 8 or so, and even got some compilation books. I also read some of his non-comic books… They were largely hippy woowoo bullshit, but still good reads. Then he came out with God’s Debris which I thought was genuinely interesting.
So I don’t think he was always this way, or maybe he hid it better. To teenage me, at least, he seemed pretty logical and fairly progressive. A bit of a hippie at times, a bit of a look at times, fairly anti-corporate and pro-little guy, overall his writing made him seem like a decent person. Maybe some vaguely problematic takes here and there, but nothing all that bad.
It was like some combination of success and wealth and Twitter access broke his mind. Or maybe it was always there and I just didn’t recognize it and I’m blinded by nostalgia. It was just a wild rollercoaster ride watching him melt down.
Behind the Bastards did an episode on him. Honestly I think from what I recall he was just drawing what got good feedback, but then he had a few issues with health, one that made him unable to speak for years and iirc ended his marriage?
So one of their takes is maybe this trauma did some damage to him mentally as well. I’m grossly oversimplfying, so I recommend checking the episode. You can also find statements and articles about his Spasmodic Aphonia and him attributing his divorce partially to it.
They do have some arguments against his anti-corporate rep though.
Joss Whedon
Cee-lo Green. He’s brilliant, and has an amazing voice, but dude is a rape apologist and doesn’t believe that an unconscious partner is unable to consent. An article from the Guardian where he apologized, but it’s still out there.
Robert Heinlein. His works were all over the place, and it would be a mistake to assume that he believed in something just because he wrote it in a fiction novel, so on that front I think he gets a fair amount of undeserved heat. He was pushing the limits of progressivism for his time, tossing out and seemingly defending everything on all sides from fascism to anarchy to direct democracy.
If we discount his fiction, though, since it can be hard to tell from that what he actually believed, then he still falls pretty short by modern standards. A homophobe, almost certainly racist, and although he was practically a feminist by the standards of his time I would have to admit that he’s pretty misogynistic by our standards.
I wish this was more talked about, when people mention classic sci-fi. I’m an avid SF reader, particularly older stuff, and it could almost be a drinking game of how few pages it’ll take before you find an offensively outdated reference, no matter how great the book. But every time I’ve picked up a Heinlein, hoping to find more positive points in classic stuff, I’m left just…feeling ooky. An easy example being the lesser known Friday, with the “happy” part of the extremely unrealistic female protagonist’s journey: marrying one of her gang-rapists. I haven’t been able to make a dent in my stack of Heinlein’s since that nonsense. Too many other great and interesting authors that weren’t horrid shitbags.
Die Antwoord
Go on…
About what?
I think people want to know why they are shitty people.
I can answer after looking at their wiki: seems they like grooming and assaulting kids.
Good talk. Great convo. Well done.
Twas a verbal match for the centuries. My children shall know of this day.
