I’ll try to make this as simple as possible:
If you would otherwise vote Democratic and fail to vote for Biden over stupid shit like this, you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
https://www.ft.com/content/9ec03cc8-afb0-4a06-9770-015e6f718bf7
Your choice is to vote for someone who supports Israel because he wants donations from the true believers, or through inaction, allow someone to get elected who actively says he will start rounding people up HERE. Immediately.
There is no choice. You don’t have to LIKE Biden. You don’t have to tell polls the truth about who you’re voting for. You don’t have to donate, and in fact I advise you do not and you tell the campaign exactly why.
But when it comes to the actual vote, no, you do not have a choice. It’s Biden or complete fucking anarchy.
Democracy is when you get to choose between voting for genocide and voting for fascism.
Democracy is when you get to choose between genocide over there OR genocide over there and right here too. Because you know damn well Trumps policy on Israel won’t be any different.
T-shirt. Sell it on Etsy. Profit.
I think what you are saying is mostly true but also you do have a choice. If you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden because of well founded reasons I don’t think it’s fair to judge because of that. All the centrists start screaming and losing their minds that they are going to lose because their candidate sucks and blame it on people who have specific, previously vocalized reasons for not wanting to vote for said candidate.
You aren’t the problem if you don’t want to vote for Biden because of his unwavering support for genocide. Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
I recommend voting for Biden for similar reasons you brought up, but I also don’t think there is any shame to deciding you can’t bring yourself to vote for such a trash candidate and want to choose this election so support a third party. Bad timing? Yeah, but it isn’t the voters fault for not wanting to vote for someone that doesn’t represent them?
Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
Here’s where you’re missing something fundamental. You’re taking as a given that a protest vote will meaningfully register with the Democratic Party, and they’ll chase you around to get your vote back. I’d offer that a significant reason major US parties have drifted rightward over the past 40 years is this. Conservatives skew older. Leftists skew younger. Young people simply don’t vote. Ergo conservatives have an outsized voice in the political sphere. When more leftists disengage, the conservative voice grows louder.
If you protest vote the Democratic Party, you’re just proving to them that they can’t count on your vote. If they can’t count on your vote, they have the option of scrambling to try to figure out what you want, or chasing voters whose support they can count on, and based on recent history that’ll probably result in more of a shift to the right. Because, at the end of the day, right-leaning voters have a weird fervor that leftists don’t share, and leftists disengage at the drop of a hat. If we’re being honest, that’s not a great group of people to have on your team if you’re trying to sustain political relevance.
I don’t think this sentiment is about protest. It’s about conscious. Many cannot consciously vote for a Zionist president complicit with genocide. Many may change their minds, it’s a year away, but many won’t. We can selfishly brow-beat them into voting for Biden. But in the end, it’s their choice.
We can selfishly brow-beat them into voting for Biden.
Shaming people into voting for your candidate doesn’t work, but Dems will do it anyway. It splits the left and helps Republicans, but they either aren’t aware of this or don’t care.
Tempered and reasoned response. Well said. I even saved it.
over stupid shit like this
For a lot of people this isn’t stupid shit
What an inspiring message. Biden will win for sure if we all make just one lecturing, patronizing post each day. Bonus points if you can find someone who had family killed in Gaza! They need the most reminding that Trump is the real threat.
“There is no choice.” “You do not have a choice.” Classic catchphrases of a healthy, functioning democracy
This post makes me want to not vote for Biden twice as much as I already don’t want to vote for Biden.
Really? The first thing you do when seeing this is tell people to vote for Genocide Joe instead of saying “actually let’s try to get a third party going”.
"No guys we have to vote for Hitler, Stalin is way worse! ".
There are no third parties until ranked choice voting.
Then there is no democracy.
A vote for Biden is a vote for Genocide.
A vote for Trump is a vote for Genocide.
Now you’re getting it
Or we could just have a civil war and get it over with
There’s a whole Wikipedia page of dominant parties that reigned supreme as a duopoly in this country until a third party came along and dethroned them. What you just said shows a shocking ignorance of history. Vote whig.
You will never get a 3rd party going. Perot had the best chance in '92 and only ensured Clinton got elected.
Then let’s hope the Dems remove Genocide Joe as their nominee for the next election.
Also never say never. Trump started off as an epic meme candidate too at 1% polling.
I’m voting for the Green party because of your post, thanks!
Congratulations on throwing away your vote. I’m sure the 0.2% of people who voted Green in 2020 will welcome you with open arms.
Congratulations on throwing away your vote
You’re doing way worse than throwing away your vote, you’re voting FOR genocide. If you and other Dem voters who want to feel good about yourself weren’t cowards and voted Green we wouldn’t be perpetuating a genocide in the first place.
Any vote is for genocide. You’re voting for either a self avowed zionist (Biden) a literal Nazi (Trump) or throwing away your vote to allow the literal Nazi to win.
Those are your ONLY choices.
throwing away your vote to allow the literal Nazi to win.
last time i voted green and biden won. what is the mechanic by which trump will win this time?
Those are your ONLY choices.
False. I won’t be voting for genocide unlike you. A vote for Jill Stein is 100x more productive to Palestinian liberation.
or how about we overthrow our shit govt instead of participating in this fucking circus act year after year. also this isnt stupid shit its a genocide you daft cunt
fuck the usa fuck israel
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Complete anarchy, because as much as Trump WANTS to be a fascist, his first term proves he’s not actually any good at much of anything.
The opposition to Trump’s fancy private police force in their black uniforms and snazzy gold trim, will result in the US becoming a failed state, and, yes, complete anarchy.
Fascism is, by definition, a right wing ideology. Biden literally cannot be a fascist, he’s not even authoritarian. If he were we would have already had universal health care and student debt relief by now.
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Fascism, by definition, is right wing ideology.
Biden is centrist, not right wing.
By definition he CAN’T be fascist, any more than Trump can be socialist.
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A right wing fascist candidate would not have pushed for health care, infrastructure, unemployment, stimulus packages, or education refunds, all of which Biden did.
Again, NOT right wing. Not even CLOSE to right wing, and that’s the “you must be this tall to ride this ride” for fascism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
“Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right (no), authoritarian (no), ultranationalist (no) political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader (no), centralized autocracy (no), militarism (no), forcible suppression of opposition (no), belief in a natural social hierarchy (no), subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race (no), and strong regimentation of society and the economy (no).[2][3]”
Point for point for point, Biden is not a fascist.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism
“they had many characteristics in common, including extreme militaristic nationalism (no), contempt for electoral democracy (no) and political and cultural liberalism (I WISH!), a belief in natural social hierarchy and the rule of elites (no), and the desire to create a Volksgemeinschaft (German: “people’s community”), in which individual interests would be subordinated to the good of the nation. (no)”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
fas·cism ˈfa""-ˌshi-zəm 1
"often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual (no) and that stands for a centralized autocratic government (no) headed by a dictatorial leader, (no) severe economic and social regimentation (no), and forcible suppression of opposition (no)
2
: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control (no)"
Of the two 2024 candidates, only Trump meets the definition, NOT Biden.
If Biden WERE actually a fascist, Hunter wouldn’t be staring down a prison term and Biden wouldn’t be looking at impeachment hearings. A fascist would have shut that shit down already.
The problem with the internet is too many kids going “Well I don’t like it so it’s fascism!” that’s not how ANY of this works.
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Fuck Biden, still voting for him because I’m not retarded.
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Unless you do not live in one of the 7 states where your vote matters.
If your apathy opens the door to a Republican supermajority in your state legislature, then they can more easily a) strip rights from your friends and neighbors, b) assist in the ratification of amendments and calling of Constitutional Conventions, c) gerrymander away your power to influence Congress, d) remove your city’s ability to govern itself, among others. Down-ballot races can potentially affect all of us.
Every vote matters
Except in actuality where with the electoral college in play, states that have as few electors as Rhode Island have a smaller number of EC votes than every margin of victory in the modern history of presidential elections. You could axe any one state with that few number of electors and you wouldn’t change a presidential result of the last century or more.
The presidency isn’t the only office that matters.
Okay? My point is that the electoral college means not every vote will count, and that is a system that only effects the presidential. So saying, and I quote from who I replied to “every vote matters” still isn’t telling the whole story as much as something like “every vote matters except the votes for president unless you live in specific places”
How so?
‘my vote doesn’t matter’ is a self fulfilling prophecy. The more people actually believe that, the more they won’t go and vote and then indeed it doesn’t matter.
However if all the people that think that their vote doesn’t matter actually do go and vote, they would be a significant demographic.
It might not make a difference straight away, but thinks only happen if you invest in them.
Same thing with sports. If you support one team, it makes you more invested in the game itself. Your team might not win every time, but if you care only about winning you’re not a true supporter. It will make it easy more satisfying if you do win, though. And one day you will.
To add to this: if the opposition party consistently shows up to vote, the dominant party gets nervous, and has to focus on the chance of losing. Not showing up means they’ve truly won.
It also shows the opposition party that they can and should invest the time in supporting that area, because there’s people who haven’t given up yet.
Also, the president isn’t the only person on the ballot, and small races are where more radical third parties actually have a shot!
Congressional, state and local elections are held at the same time on the same damn ballot and absolutely matter. They absolutely will affect you and congress is arguably just as important as potus. It’s called being engaged, instead just complaining while letting others take the wheel.
But I guess whining counts as participation…
He’s technically correct. As long as the electoral college exists, many peoples votes effectively don’t matter because that state will always go one way. Once that occurs, the opposing votes are effectively erased.
Afaik the American special the electoral college votes for whatever the majority vote of that State is. So votes do count, towards that majority.
If everybody assumes that one party will win and doesn’t go to vote it will never change, if everybody who thinks that their vote doesn’t matter would do that, a change can happen.
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That was what I meant yeah.
you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
Understood. You’re okay with that stuff happening in Palestine, but not the USA, because you live in the USA. Supporting tyranny abroad is a-okay because you don’t think it affects you.
“Who cares if we allow genocide to happen here because it’s already happening somewhere else” is such a fucking stupid take. You should feel bad.
There’s no way you could honestly interpret what I wrote that way. I’m responding to the fans of Joe who are openly saying “Who cares about genocide when Trump is worse?”
I do care about genocide, and that’s (one of many reasons) why I’ll be voting for Jill Stein, not Joe Biden.
So you’re voting for Trump, got it.
If he wins just remember that you share responsibility for his atrocities. Just like everyone else who let him win.
tehy said explicitly they are voting against trump: jill stein is running against trump.
The top level argument is that voting for anyone but Biden is effectively a vote for trump. Stein is effectively a democratic spoiler
The top level argument is that voting for anyone but Biden is effectively a vote for trump
but that’s not true. a vote for anyone who is not trump is by definition not a vote for trump.
If you’re not familiar, the US uses a two party system. Not voting is no different than voting for Jill. There’s no difference between not voting for Biden and voting for Trump.
Not voting is no different than voting for Jill.
wrong. voting for jill adds 1 vote for jill. not voting adds 0 votes for jill.
the US uses a two party system
my ballot often has 4 or more parties on it.
This isn’t true, even if Jill loses.
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It shows the level of support for Jill’s platform.
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If the Green Party gets 5%, they qualify for a huge government grant which will help them become a more viable party.
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There’s no difference between not voting for Biden and voting for Trump.
yes there is. not voting at all is NOT voting for trump OR biden.
Does everyone who voted for Biden share the blame for the atrocities he’s supporting?
Ah yes I remember when Biden ripped apart immigrant families and banned Muslims from travelling /s
That’s a really fucking dumb straw man.
Obviously reductive comment is obvious
“That stuff” is going to happen in Palestine REGARDLESS of who the President is. Neither Biden nor Trump has an interest in cutting Israel loose.
The difference is what they will do HERE. That’s the differentiator.
Just hit that nail on the head. Hence, the downvotes.
I don’t want to sound like I’m defending Biden, but I don’t know why people find this surprising. I’ve only been paying attention to politics for about 30 years, but he’s been saying this loudly and proudly for as long as I can remember.
Maybe people are just now noticing because it suddenly matters more than it used to. It definitely hits different when Israel is actively attempting a genocide, and it feels to me to be in pretty fucking terrible taste to beat that particular drum right now, but people are acting like this just came out of left field. He has been absolutely consistent about calling himself a Zionist for decades. It really shouldn’t have come as a shock.
Even if he personally has an ideological commitment to Zionism, he should be smart enough to not to say it out loud when it is clearly an issue that supposes a risk to his numbers.
It’s not surprising, it’s just disgusting to see this decrepit piece of shit double down on loving genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Maybe people didn’t realize he’s a Catholic? Or thought that meant something other than implicit commitment to Zionism? Seems kind of hard to believe tbh
How does Catholicism lead to an implicit commitment to Zionism?
It doesn’t. It’s evangelicals which require Isreal for their doomsday prophecy
I have no idea what the dude is smoking. The Catholic church is explicitly against zionism. They wanted Jerusalem to be an international city.
Pope Pius X stated "We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem—but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different.
This was over a hundred years ago, and they’ve changed their tone significantly since then.
Here’s a good paper on the modern history of the Catholic church’s approach.
One thing I’ll grant is not all Catholics believe this. But then they also don’t really have an answer to dispensationalism. More on that here (this source is far from unbiased but the historicity is accurate).
I read through the paper and it really made the issue clear as mud.
Can you define what “this” is? Because the one thing I have learned is Zionism can mean something slightly different to catholics.
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Because belief in the biblical end of times requires it of those who believe in it.
The Catholic church are not the only christian church guilty of this, but they do believe it. The papacy did for a time reject it, politically, but that was a short lived period in the church.
Now, the most influential Catholic in the free world (maybe besides the Pope, if you’re a Catholic) is pro Zionism.
I’m not American, can someone explain why Biden does this when his “one job” for 2024 is to not look like a fash?
Because old fucks in politics can’t keep their goddamn mouths shut about anything. Gotta pander, but unfortunately there a lot more cameras and microphones at everything they attend, unlike when they were my age.
Can we just pull the reset rope on government and replace all positions with people that represent the average demographic age that will actually see the future we’re building? I honestly do not care what some 80 year old thinks society should be like. When they were my age, black people were still not allowed in schools with them.
He’s been saying it for decades (literally), it’s only now that it garners so much attention. Look, I can find 100 reasons to dislike the guy but being consistent isn’t one of them.
80s documentation: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-12-28/ty-article/rare-1986-document-reveals-bidens-views-on-israel-and-saudi-arabia/0000017f-f2ca-d8a1-a5ff-f2ca769b0000
Did you mean to say “being inconsistent”?
I did not. The wording is based on how this matches his past statements. In this case, he’s being consistent and I can’t hate on that.
I can, however, hate the monetary support we’re sending there and dozens of other things.
Because the vast majority of Americans believe that a state of Israel has the right to exist in some fashion, which is all that Zionism means.
It does not mean wholehearted support for literally everything its government does, which Biden very much does not have. He and Netanyahu are not exactly friends.
Because the vast majority of Americans believe that a state of Israel has the right to exist in some fashion, which is all that Zionism means.
I hate elections because it makes me feel even more like a weirdo, and that I have far, far less in common with my neighbors than I think.
That you and the other comment about this are massively downvoted despite being accurate really shows how Lemmy is changing.
I get it, they may not like what the truth stands for or that there’s nuance here, with POTUS recent words and actions setting a poor standard. The whole situation certainly sucks but so does the knee-jerk reactions on many of these threads.
And? You’re a mouth piece for the president?
A president of all people should understand what words mean given context (quite lacking in the U.S right now). It’s quite bold of you to give excuses on behalf of someone who says they are a zionist without even knowing if they were ignorant or deliberately trying to dogwhistle. You might come off as daft if you’re proven wrong.
And? They weren’t downvoting the president, they were pushing down legitimate information that was specifically asked for by a non-American. Historical even.
Not everything is a dog whistle and this isn’t even sly or hidden, he outright admits it and always has. Sheesh.
Because saying you are a Zionist is simply to say that you believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist and be secure. It’s not saying that Israeli policy towards Palestian’s isn’t a inhumane cluster-fuck.
I disagree that a religious ethno-state has a right to exist. I’m anti-zionist for the same reason I don’t like the regimes in charge in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
And that’s fine - that’s a morally consistent position, that I respect. My main point was to try and explain why Bidenmight have used those words.
Thank you. The anti semitism on here is actually terrifying. Either there are a lot of people who don’t realize what they are saying, or they truly are anti semites just waiting to come out of the closet.
Luckily, they are not the majority in the real world. It seems to be highschool and university students who do not understand the implications of what they are saying.
Being anti Zionist isn’t antisemitic.
Nope but that’s exactly why they keep trying to make that a thing
Its absolutely not. Neither is suggesting (for example) that Israel is committing war crimes. But you can be extremeky critical of Israel and still think it has a right to exist, in line with long-stamding US foreign policy and the U.N efforts to find a two-state solution. Anyone who supports a two-state solution is a Zionist, by the dictionary definition. And that includes Biden - and me.
The difficulty is that the term ‘Zionism’ comes wiith a lot of extremely unpleasant shit associated with it.
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If you casually state you’d wish for a third diaspora, you’ll have to forgive me for thinking that you’re not, in fact, fine with Jews.
I beg your pardon, but I know a few “orthodox ones” (like women shaving their head and wearing a wig, no electricity, no money and no leaving your house and district at Saturdays etc) and they are nice people ; however I’ve met some who probably eat pork and they’ve been among the most unpleasant people I’ve met.
Also most of Europe consists of “ethno-states”, so let’s please drop that too.
I agree that Israel’s size and extent should be reduced, and they shouldn’t be allowed to police any population but their own.
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Opposing apartheid in any context is not antisemitic. Conflating criticism of oppression and occupation as condemning an entire religion is extremely obtuse. Surely you’re not that fucking dense.
I don’t know why you have to resort to insults. You’re the second person to insult me and I am not really sure why since I only said I’m concerned about anti sentism.
I also beleive Israel has the right to exist and be secure. This is not controversial. Most of the western world officially takes this position. If you want to insult me for that, then I guess go ahead.
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Not the best choice of words from Joe.
“I really want to lose this election.”
He’s old, and in his youth saying that made politicians more popular, not less.
Welcome to the Lemmy.
Yeah, not a good look given the public image already surrounding the conflict.
Only because Zionist has become a racist term used against Jewish people of all stripes, regardless of whether they’re Israeli or not.
This is gonna do to Biden what COVID-19 did to Trump.
Throwing an Election (Any%)
“Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who is safe,” says the president, to loud applause.
… to a bunch of Jews inside the United States.
None of whom realize the fucking irony.
Please explain the irony.
Asking for a friend.
The statement was that Jewish people would not be safe anywhere without Israel
There are Jewish people living safely in many parts of the world, and those people are protected by the communities they live as a part of.
The irony is that the statement was made to Jewish people in such a community outside of Israel. The other bit of irony is that statements like this are further divisions. Divisions that make life unsafe for everyone
Lmao yeah I see.
There are millions of Jews in Israel (or their children), right now, who are there because they were forcibly expelled from other Arab countries in the Middle East.
Why do you think there’s a 3000 year old synagogue in Aleppo, and only around four Jews in all of Syria?
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I would like to bring a counter point for you to consider.
When I put all my money in a bank, I have a guaranty from a regulatory body /government that in case of bankruptcy I will still get my money back, even if the bank goes bust.
This is similar for Jews around the world - Israel is an insurance policy. If your local country starts leaning towards fascism and looking for a scapegoat (which is usually Jews), then you’d have the option to go to Israel immediately. Because historically they’ve seen and still see how refugees are being treated and not welcome globally.
If your local country starts leaning towards fascism and looking for a scapegoat (which is usually Jews), then you’d have the option to go to Israel immediately.
That’s a great plan, since Jews are completely safe and definitely not in any danger in Israel.
they do, oh sadly they do…
while the belligerent actions of the country make every Jew inside and outside of Israel less safe.
You’d think Bibi would’ve made it clear enough with this latest fiasco that clinging to a jingoist ideology is generally the opposite of safety.
What kind of moon logic is this?
Zionism and Nazism have more in common that just a z.
Holy fuck why.
Israel is one USA’s major allies. America helped in the creation of the Israeli state. He believes the Jews have the right to their own homeland. These are three likely reasons.
The US didn’t have much to do with the founding of Israel, the UK was the primary colonial sponsor at the time. It wasn’t until a few decades later when the US decided that it was going to need a permanent military presence in the Middle East to ensure the oil flowed that the US became the primary colonial sponsor.
I supposed I should have said “supported the creation of Israel” rather than helped.
Okay, but the other guy said he’d be a dictator, so
Fuck Israel
Okay I understand he wants his legacy to be genocide Joe, but fucking read the room.
yikes
Fucking cunt
Yeah. We know.
