Like I said, I think they do deep down have a much greater understanding of MLism and world events than they let out, but just have to keep it watered down for YouTube.
I don’t understand the religious comment. Marxists can be religious, it just can’t interfere with the materialist line of thinking or stray into any cringe anti-democratic/oppressive policies (at least that’s my opinion, educate me if I’m wrong)
Marxists can be religious, it just can’t interfere with the materialist line
So, you are saying it’s ok to hold conflicting philosophies or lying to yourself or maybe even being hypocrite? If you look at the “religious marxists”, nearly all of them are terrible at either being marxist or being religious (or both). I don’t negate that marxists and religious people can and should be on the same side now and then and even cooperate in some issues, but materialism openly and cathegorically negate religion in its entirety, without it it’s not materialism but at best agnosticism.
I understand your attitude toward religion given the situation in your country at the moment. I come from a country not too far from yours that has similar problems with religion. And i used to think the same way that you do, and to some extent i still do. I have mellowed my views on this somewhat for purely pragmatic purposes. The reality is that religion is a very prevalent and powerful force in the world, and it’s not going away very soon. There are too many religious people in the world, especially in the global south, for us to adopt a hostile attitude toward them. We simply cannot afford to alienate so many people. And if for some of them (such as is the case in some Latin American countries) their religious views happen to motivate or reinforce their commitment to socialism and anti-imperialism, that is ultimately a good thing.
And yes, i still do believe that Marxism and religion do not fit together, because one is based in materialism and the other in idealism. But i also know that humans are perfectly capable of holding conflicting views at the same time - it’s called cognitive dissonance, though I suppose if you wanted to be harsh about it you could call it hypocrisy. Either way there are plenty of religious comrades who are excellent communists and my view is that it is up to them to square that circle, it’s not my problem. If they want to keep holding on to their religious beliefs for whatever reason, as long as they are still standing side by side with us in the same struggle i will refrain from being obnoxious or judgy to them, or act in an arrogant, dismissive way.
For now religion is not the primary contradiction that we face, though we should of course oppose and combat those aspects and manifestations of religion that stand against revolution, in support of the existing bourgeois order, or in promotion of reactionary ideas. Our goal is to build as large a movement as possible against capitalism and imperialism, with a disciplined and well organized vanguard party at its core. To do that we have to be inclusive to a degree and not too dogmatic about things that are not of primary importance to the struggle. Most importantly we have to adapt to local conditions. The position that the local communist party should take toward religion will be different from country to country.
First, i write this horrible wall of text to you because i know everything you write is nearly always worth reading and you don’t write this with troll intentions. But, while i agree with you in a broad sense about agitation, i think this attitude is wrong, specifically here.
Again, we are not out there, agitating in the crowd, but here in the explicitly marxist space, among people who are or want to be marxists, since when a core part of marxism become unmentionable? Why it is ok to have and voice religious sentiments here, as evidenced by religious communities, but not atheist one? Why i’m always having such conversations and having to read wall of texts assuming many things i did never said? Do i always have to write lenghty disclaimers (which will also get ignored)?
How did we even arrived at this point?
There are too many religious people in the world, especially in the global south, for us to adopt a hostile attitude toward them.
Again, how it is even hostile for people in the global south? I’m not writing for them here, also it is explicitly in line with successful communist parties of global south AES countries which all require atheism from their members.
their religious views happen to motivate or reinforce their commitment to socialism and anti-imperialism, that is ultimately a good thing.
Agree and we should went easy on them, but this too strike me as somewhat inapropriate. Those people can read, i assure you they will very fast discover what “dialectical materialism” means once they start to study it (millions did!). And how we should proceed? Lie to them about our stance for religion? Or maybe lie to ourselves? Or maybe abandon marxism for tactical purposes?
Again, just to write yet another disclaimer, i mostly agree with CPC religious politics, but CPC can allow to have such politics, since there is no organized influental religion there, and i will mention Falun Gong as example what happened when religion crossed the line.
Also, marxist should lift masses, not tail them. And it works, if you look at history, everywhere where marxist agitation and education proceeded, there was rise of atheism.
But i also know that humans are perfectly capable of holding conflicting views at the same time - it’s called cognitive dissonance, though I suppose if you wanted to be harsh about it you could call it hypocrisy.
I don’t want to be harsh, i am well aware this is quite common about various issues. It shouldn’t be reinforced though. Maybe even talked about and resolved?
Either way there are plenty of religious comrades who are excellent communists and my view is that it is up to them to square that circle, it’s not my problem. If they want to keep holding on to their religious beliefs for whatever reason, as long as they are still standing side by side with us in the same struggle i will refrain from being obnoxious or judgy to them, or act in an arrogant, dismissive way.
No problem with calling them “Comrades” (unlike “bruv” or some other reddit slang), but they do ask about religion, else we wouldn’t even have this conversation. And this here is the exact core problem. I noticed that every single mentioning of atheism and materialism is immediately labeled “arrogant and dismissive way”. How do you even want to explain materialism then when even the dryest mentions are always taken for an attack? (btw i don’t see our pretty cool muslim comrades here dogpiling me, they seem to be quite chill, it’s usually some west communists doing the paternalist “don’t alienate 3rd worlders” and even “as an atheist” trick).
For now religion is not the primary contradiction that we face
Agree, but again, it’s not about that, it’s specifically about materialist core of marxism, you can’t throw out the philosophical base it was build on and still claim its marxism. I’m tired already so i won’t write even more disclaimers, basically read Lenin about Party and Religion, Socialism and Religion, Materialism and Empiriocriticism and about Significance of Militant Materialism.
though we should of course oppose and combat those aspects and manifestations of religion that stand against revolution, in support of the existing bourgeois order, or in promotion of reactionary ideas.
Yeah that leaves us with only 95% of historical and current religious organizations.
Our goal is to build as large a movement as possible against capitalism and imperialism
Sounds fun unless it’s time to bash antiwar manifestation because some undesirable individuals participated in it.
with a disciplined and well organized vanguard party at its core.
Exactly. Somehow, every successful marxist vanguard party in history was and still is atheist. Also note that “vanguard party” and “movement” are not synonymous.
To do that we have to be inclusive to a degree and not too dogmatic about things that are not of primary importance to the struggle.
In movement or in vanguard party? In movement we should really accept everyone willing and active. In Party? Marxist party should not have people not accepting the dialectical materialism as core of marxism. It’s not dogmatic squabble about tactics, it’s the very base of theory, the entire meaning of progress to scientifical socialism, when we drop it we will become little better than utopians.
Most importantly we have to adapt to local conditions. The position that the local communist party should take toward religion will be different from country to country.
Fully agree. Note difference between principles and tactics.
I personally don’t really get how someone reconciles materialism with religion, but why be an obnoxious atheist about it? I’d rather not exclude anyone because of my idealistic worldview; either I’m wrong and religion will exist for as long as humanity does (so what did I accomplish by being a dick about it?) or my way of thinking is correct and people are going to come around to that eventually, once the material conditions are right for people to no longer need religion.
I like him but he has dumb opinions like not critically supporting Russia and being religious.
Like I said, I think they do deep down have a much greater understanding of MLism and world events than they let out, but just have to keep it watered down for YouTube.
I don’t understand the religious comment. Marxists can be religious, it just can’t interfere with the materialist line of thinking or stray into any cringe anti-democratic/oppressive policies (at least that’s my opinion, educate me if I’m wrong)
So, you are saying it’s ok to hold conflicting philosophies or lying to yourself or maybe even being hypocrite? If you look at the “religious marxists”, nearly all of them are terrible at either being marxist or being religious (or both). I don’t negate that marxists and religious people can and should be on the same side now and then and even cooperate in some issues, but materialism openly and cathegorically negate religion in its entirety, without it it’s not materialism but at best agnosticism.
I understand your attitude toward religion given the situation in your country at the moment. I come from a country not too far from yours that has similar problems with religion. And i used to think the same way that you do, and to some extent i still do. I have mellowed my views on this somewhat for purely pragmatic purposes. The reality is that religion is a very prevalent and powerful force in the world, and it’s not going away very soon. There are too many religious people in the world, especially in the global south, for us to adopt a hostile attitude toward them. We simply cannot afford to alienate so many people. And if for some of them (such as is the case in some Latin American countries) their religious views happen to motivate or reinforce their commitment to socialism and anti-imperialism, that is ultimately a good thing.
And yes, i still do believe that Marxism and religion do not fit together, because one is based in materialism and the other in idealism. But i also know that humans are perfectly capable of holding conflicting views at the same time - it’s called cognitive dissonance, though I suppose if you wanted to be harsh about it you could call it hypocrisy. Either way there are plenty of religious comrades who are excellent communists and my view is that it is up to them to square that circle, it’s not my problem. If they want to keep holding on to their religious beliefs for whatever reason, as long as they are still standing side by side with us in the same struggle i will refrain from being obnoxious or judgy to them, or act in an arrogant, dismissive way.
For now religion is not the primary contradiction that we face, though we should of course oppose and combat those aspects and manifestations of religion that stand against revolution, in support of the existing bourgeois order, or in promotion of reactionary ideas. Our goal is to build as large a movement as possible against capitalism and imperialism, with a disciplined and well organized vanguard party at its core. To do that we have to be inclusive to a degree and not too dogmatic about things that are not of primary importance to the struggle. Most importantly we have to adapt to local conditions. The position that the local communist party should take toward religion will be different from country to country.
First, i write this horrible wall of text to you because i know everything you write is nearly always worth reading and you don’t write this with troll intentions. But, while i agree with you in a broad sense about agitation, i think this attitude is wrong, specifically here.
Again, we are not out there, agitating in the crowd, but here in the explicitly marxist space, among people who are or want to be marxists, since when a core part of marxism become unmentionable? Why it is ok to have and voice religious sentiments here, as evidenced by religious communities, but not atheist one? Why i’m always having such conversations and having to read wall of texts assuming many things i did never said? Do i always have to write lenghty disclaimers (which will also get ignored)?
How did we even arrived at this point?
Again, how it is even hostile for people in the global south? I’m not writing for them here, also it is explicitly in line with successful communist parties of global south AES countries which all require atheism from their members.
Agree and we should went easy on them, but this too strike me as somewhat inapropriate. Those people can read, i assure you they will very fast discover what “dialectical materialism” means once they start to study it (millions did!). And how we should proceed? Lie to them about our stance for religion? Or maybe lie to ourselves? Or maybe abandon marxism for tactical purposes?
Again, just to write yet another disclaimer, i mostly agree with CPC religious politics, but CPC can allow to have such politics, since there is no organized influental religion there, and i will mention Falun Gong as example what happened when religion crossed the line.
Also, marxist should lift masses, not tail them. And it works, if you look at history, everywhere where marxist agitation and education proceeded, there was rise of atheism.
I don’t want to be harsh, i am well aware this is quite common about various issues. It shouldn’t be reinforced though. Maybe even talked about and resolved?
No problem with calling them “Comrades” (unlike “bruv” or some other reddit slang), but they do ask about religion, else we wouldn’t even have this conversation. And this here is the exact core problem. I noticed that every single mentioning of atheism and materialism is immediately labeled “arrogant and dismissive way”. How do you even want to explain materialism then when even the dryest mentions are always taken for an attack? (btw i don’t see our pretty cool muslim comrades here dogpiling me, they seem to be quite chill, it’s usually some west communists doing the paternalist “don’t alienate 3rd worlders” and even “as an atheist” trick).
Agree, but again, it’s not about that, it’s specifically about materialist core of marxism, you can’t throw out the philosophical base it was build on and still claim its marxism. I’m tired already so i won’t write even more disclaimers, basically read Lenin about Party and Religion, Socialism and Religion, Materialism and Empiriocriticism and about Significance of Militant Materialism.
Yeah that leaves us with only 95% of historical and current religious organizations.
Sounds fun unless it’s time to bash antiwar manifestation because some undesirable individuals participated in it.
Exactly. Somehow, every successful marxist vanguard party in history was and still is atheist. Also note that “vanguard party” and “movement” are not synonymous.
In movement or in vanguard party? In movement we should really accept everyone willing and active. In Party? Marxist party should not have people not accepting the dialectical materialism as core of marxism. It’s not dogmatic squabble about tactics, it’s the very base of theory, the entire meaning of progress to scientifical socialism, when we drop it we will become little better than utopians.
Fully agree. Note difference between principles and tactics.
I personally don’t really get how someone reconciles materialism with religion, but why be an obnoxious atheist about it? I’d rather not exclude anyone because of my idealistic worldview; either I’m wrong and religion will exist for as long as humanity does (so what did I accomplish by being a dick about it?) or my way of thinking is correct and people are going to come around to that eventually, once the material conditions are right for people to no longer need religion.
Correcting people about marxism being materialist in a marxist space is not obnoxious atheism.