First, i write this horrible wall of text to you because i know everything you write is nearly always worth reading and you don’t write this with troll intentions. But, while i agree with you in a broad sense about agitation, i think this attitude is wrong, specifically here.
Again, we are not out there, agitating in the crowd, but here in the explicitly marxist space, among people who are or want to be marxists, since when a core part of marxism become unmentionable? Why it is ok to have and voice religious sentiments here, as evidenced by religious communities, but not atheist one? Why i’m always having such conversations and having to read wall of texts assuming many things i did never said? Do i always have to write lenghty disclaimers (which will also get ignored)?
How did we even arrived at this point?
There are too many religious people in the world, especially in the global south, for us to adopt a hostile attitude toward them.
Again, how it is even hostile for people in the global south? I’m not writing for them here, also it is explicitly in line with successful communist parties of global south AES countries which all require atheism from their members.
their religious views happen to motivate or reinforce their commitment to socialism and anti-imperialism, that is ultimately a good thing.
Agree and we should went easy on them, but this too strike me as somewhat inapropriate. Those people can read, i assure you they will very fast discover what “dialectical materialism” means once they start to study it (millions did!). And how we should proceed? Lie to them about our stance for religion? Or maybe lie to ourselves? Or maybe abandon marxism for tactical purposes?
Again, just to write yet another disclaimer, i mostly agree with CPC religious politics, but CPC can allow to have such politics, since there is no organized influental religion there, and i will mention Falun Gong as example what happened when religion crossed the line.
Also, marxist should lift masses, not tail them. And it works, if you look at history, everywhere where marxist agitation and education proceeded, there was rise of atheism.
But i also know that humans are perfectly capable of holding conflicting views at the same time - it’s called cognitive dissonance, though I suppose if you wanted to be harsh about it you could call it hypocrisy.
I don’t want to be harsh, i am well aware this is quite common about various issues. It shouldn’t be reinforced though. Maybe even talked about and resolved?
Either way there are plenty of religious comrades who are excellent communists and my view is that it is up to them to square that circle, it’s not my problem. If they want to keep holding on to their religious beliefs for whatever reason, as long as they are still standing side by side with us in the same struggle i will refrain from being obnoxious or judgy to them, or act in an arrogant, dismissive way.
No problem with calling them “Comrades” (unlike “bruv” or some other reddit slang), but they do ask about religion, else we wouldn’t even have this conversation. And this here is the exact core problem. I noticed that every single mentioning of atheism and materialism is immediately labeled “arrogant and dismissive way”. How do you even want to explain materialism then when even the dryest mentions are always taken for an attack? (btw i don’t see our pretty cool muslim comrades here dogpiling me, they seem to be quite chill, it’s usually some west communists doing the paternalist “don’t alienate 3rd worlders” and even “as an atheist” trick).
For now religion is not the primary contradiction that we face
Agree, but again, it’s not about that, it’s specifically about materialist core of marxism, you can’t throw out the philosophical base it was build on and still claim its marxism. I’m tired already so i won’t write even more disclaimers, basically read Lenin about Party and Religion, Socialism and Religion, Materialism and Empiriocriticism and about Significance of Militant Materialism.
though we should of course oppose and combat those aspects and manifestations of religion that stand against revolution, in support of the existing bourgeois order, or in promotion of reactionary ideas.
Yeah that leaves us with only 95% of historical and current religious organizations.
Our goal is to build as large a movement as possible against capitalism and imperialism
Sounds fun unless it’s time to bash antiwar manifestation because some undesirable individuals participated in it.
with a disciplined and well organized vanguard party at its core.
Exactly. Somehow, every successful marxist vanguard party in history was and still is atheist. Also note that “vanguard party” and “movement” are not synonymous.
To do that we have to be inclusive to a degree and not too dogmatic about things that are not of primary importance to the struggle.
In movement or in vanguard party? In movement we should really accept everyone willing and active. In Party? Marxist party should not have people not accepting the dialectical materialism as core of marxism. It’s not dogmatic squabble about tactics, it’s the very base of theory, the entire meaning of progress to scientifical socialism, when we drop it we will become little better than utopians.
Most importantly we have to adapt to local conditions. The position that the local communist party should take toward religion will be different from country to country.
Fully agree. Note difference between principles and tactics.
First, i write this horrible wall of text to you because i know everything you write is nearly always worth reading and you don’t write this with troll intentions. But, while i agree with you in a broad sense about agitation, i think this attitude is wrong, specifically here.
Again, we are not out there, agitating in the crowd, but here in the explicitly marxist space, among people who are or want to be marxists, since when a core part of marxism become unmentionable? Why it is ok to have and voice religious sentiments here, as evidenced by religious communities, but not atheist one? Why i’m always having such conversations and having to read wall of texts assuming many things i did never said? Do i always have to write lenghty disclaimers (which will also get ignored)?
How did we even arrived at this point?
Again, how it is even hostile for people in the global south? I’m not writing for them here, also it is explicitly in line with successful communist parties of global south AES countries which all require atheism from their members.
Agree and we should went easy on them, but this too strike me as somewhat inapropriate. Those people can read, i assure you they will very fast discover what “dialectical materialism” means once they start to study it (millions did!). And how we should proceed? Lie to them about our stance for religion? Or maybe lie to ourselves? Or maybe abandon marxism for tactical purposes?
Again, just to write yet another disclaimer, i mostly agree with CPC religious politics, but CPC can allow to have such politics, since there is no organized influental religion there, and i will mention Falun Gong as example what happened when religion crossed the line.
Also, marxist should lift masses, not tail them. And it works, if you look at history, everywhere where marxist agitation and education proceeded, there was rise of atheism.
I don’t want to be harsh, i am well aware this is quite common about various issues. It shouldn’t be reinforced though. Maybe even talked about and resolved?
No problem with calling them “Comrades” (unlike “bruv” or some other reddit slang), but they do ask about religion, else we wouldn’t even have this conversation. And this here is the exact core problem. I noticed that every single mentioning of atheism and materialism is immediately labeled “arrogant and dismissive way”. How do you even want to explain materialism then when even the dryest mentions are always taken for an attack? (btw i don’t see our pretty cool muslim comrades here dogpiling me, they seem to be quite chill, it’s usually some west communists doing the paternalist “don’t alienate 3rd worlders” and even “as an atheist” trick).
Agree, but again, it’s not about that, it’s specifically about materialist core of marxism, you can’t throw out the philosophical base it was build on and still claim its marxism. I’m tired already so i won’t write even more disclaimers, basically read Lenin about Party and Religion, Socialism and Religion, Materialism and Empiriocriticism and about Significance of Militant Materialism.
Yeah that leaves us with only 95% of historical and current religious organizations.
Sounds fun unless it’s time to bash antiwar manifestation because some undesirable individuals participated in it.
Exactly. Somehow, every successful marxist vanguard party in history was and still is atheist. Also note that “vanguard party” and “movement” are not synonymous.
In movement or in vanguard party? In movement we should really accept everyone willing and active. In Party? Marxist party should not have people not accepting the dialectical materialism as core of marxism. It’s not dogmatic squabble about tactics, it’s the very base of theory, the entire meaning of progress to scientifical socialism, when we drop it we will become little better than utopians.
Fully agree. Note difference between principles and tactics.