Posting this because I think it’s an interesting examination of the overlap (or lack thereof) between atheists and general skeptics. It’s worth remembering that the term ‘atheism’ only means a rejection of theistic beliefs; non-theistic beliefs that are nonetheless irrational and unsupported by evidence are not relevant to the term. And yet one can easily see why there is an overlap between these two communities and why many atheists scoff at other atheists who profess belief in things like astrology, ghosts, reincarnation, etc.
I’m definitely one of those who doesn’t believe in anything supernatural, but I’ve certainly met atheists who do. It’s worth remembering the two groups aren’t synonymous.
Many atheists I’ve spoken to still believe in free will, which is a faith based belief with no scientific basis. So I’m not too surprised that some of them also believe in ghosts and shit.
I’m a determinist myself, but my understanding from reading/listening to some articles and interviews with professional philosophers on the subject is that the concept of free will as the layperson tends to think of it doesn’t actually have much utility in philosophy discussions and that professional investigations of it have generally settled on some version of “it’s complicated” and “you’re asking the wrong question.” I don’t pretend to have a sophisticated understanding of it and it’s been a long time since I looked the issue up, but I’m not sure I would put people who believe in free will in the same “faith-based believers” category I would use for people who believe in ghosts.
I would. I generally need a reason to believe something. If there’s not a reason, and you believe it anyway, it’s faith. The fun thing about the free will debate is that there is only contrary evidence. So believing in free will is a lot like believing in flat earth. They have an intuitive understanding that they have free will in the same way a flat earther has an intuitive understanding that the earth is flat. It meshes with the subjective experiences that have shaped their schema. When information contradicts a persons schema, they tend to ignore it, and will cling to their belief regardless of contrary evidence. They’ll look for free will like it’s the god of the gap, hoping somehow that it’s hiding in quantum effects that they don’t understand. The kicker though is that people who believe in free will don’t choose to believe in free will. Because they don’t have free will, no one does. Everything that happens is a direct result of preceding events, even your thoughts and beliefs. It’s all cause and effect. I agree though that it is the wrong question. Even though on the macro scale humans don’t have free will, on the micro scale of a human life all of those variables are hidden from us and we have to act as if we had free will. Even though every decision we make is the product of hidden interactions. This makes believing in free will a very useful belief. Should we believe in things because they are useful, or should we believe in things because they are true.? Whatever answer you come up with to that question, just remember that it was the only answer you COULD have come up with, being the person that you are now in the circumstance that exist presently.
You’re kind of preaching to the choir, but I would also add that there’s a difference between the philosophical rejection of a belief in free will and the more pragmatic “belief” even determinists must engage with whenever we make a choice. Again, I’m no philosophical expert on the subject, but this was a key point of discussion for philosophers in the articles I read. If we’re all acting in accordance with the idea that we have free will, even if we believe otherwise in a more cerebral sense, what impact does that lack of belief really have on the world or even just our lives? There’s the argument that, if we truly live in a determinist reality, should we even be punishing criminals for the harm they do to society as opposed to just imprisoning them for safety purposes and trying to reform them? Does that mean all determinists should be prison reformists who think punishment has no place in the criminal justice system? I certainly don’t subscribe to that philosophy, but do reject the idea of free will.
Anyway, my overall point is simply that the philosophical question of whether or not free will exists is a lot more complicated than the question of whether or not ghosts exist, and that it’s not just about the evidence for/against it, but also about the role such a belief (or lack thereof) plays in our moment-to-moment lives.
Well guess it depends on what you mean by free will. If you mean it as agency then yes it clearly exists, I have more agency than a slave. If you mean in that a human behavior is not fully predictable then yes as of right now you still have it. If you mean in the supernatural sense then well there really is no evidence to support that.
There’s no reason to believe that you have agency. The slaves beliefs, attitudes and decisions are dictated by their circumstances, and those circumstances determine the slaves actions. You have different circumstances, but your decisions are no less governed by them. There is no “natural” fee will vs. “Supernatural” freewill. The idea that you have freewill, at all, is supernatural and faith based, yet many atheists do seem to believe in it anyway. Which was the topic of OPs link.
This is bull and you know it. If you honestly thought agency wasn’t a thing you would have zero problem giving it up and what’s more this is a very problematic view to have. You are seriously going to maintain that a sex slave has as much agency as some rich dude?
No. I’m saying that no one has any agency. Zero agency for anyone. Everything is the direct result of the moment that came before it. This includes your reaction to events, your thoughts, your feelings, your unseemly implication, and the actions you take in your life. If you would like to cause me to modify my view then you’d need to come up with a functional theory that explains how human beings are the exception in an otherwise deterministic universe and free will is possible. If I lost the comforting illusion of agency it would probably suck. Not having agency doesn’t mean we don’t suffer. That is a false dichotomy. Whatever circumstances we find ourselves in, be they good or bad, our reaction to those circumstances would be deterministic.
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They are describing a wholely deterministic universe (one we don’t currently know the math for). If the universe is 100% deterministic, freewill is an illusion and the argument is moot. If it is not deterministic, the freewill probably exists and this argument is stupid.
Either free will exists it you are deterministically defined to believe it does. It’s a stupid argument, but still valid.
Wrong point I think. I’m explaining his argument and why his argument is stupid.
If the subjective illusion of free will is not distinguishable from actual free will, does it matter?
Whether you decide that it matters or not, it was the only decision you could have made knowing what you know and being who you are at the moment you made it.
If believing in a faith based idea doesn’t matter does that mean we should adopt the belief?
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Do you really find it convincing that quantum randomness and unpredictable errors could give humans free will?
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Belief is opt in, not opt out. There’s no reason to believe that free will exists, so I don’t believe that free will exists. I’m not going to believe that freewill exists by default, and wait for it to be debunked. That’s basically pascal’s wager. I’m going to NOT believe in freewill until I have a reason to. There’s no reason to believe that free will is hidden in quantum physics, so I don’t believe that free will is hidden in quantum physics. Quantum effects can be random and unpredictable, but it doesn’t mean they’re “free will” and you have no reason to think that they are free will. You have a desire to have free will, which is understandable because everyone wants to believe that they have agency, but it doesn’t make it true. you can’t just say “something something quantum physics” and call it a day. That’s just appealing to the god of the gap, you’re just swapping out “god” for free will. Both of these things are equally unlikely to exist. While it’s true that we cannot predict errors in complex systems, it doesn’t mean that those errors are unpredictable. It means we can’t predict them. When we’re a Kardishev type 3 civilization we’ll probably have that sorted out too. We don’t know if free will is possible, and the reason that we don’t know if it is possible is because there is no evidence to support it. So unless someone can come up with a functional model that explains a process by which free will might occur in the real cosmos, I’m not going to believe in free will. It’s not even a choice, it’s determinism.
You missed the point. Either you don’t have the ability to choose to believe… Or free will exists. The argument is moot in this context.
If you don’t have free will, the argument is irrelevant. If you do, then it matters but the argument is invalid due to false premise.
Consciousness is not bound by physical laws. Just like a computer game can allow you to use magic or have superpowers or whatever the game designer desires, completely independent of reality. The consciousness exist in a virtual reality construct of the mind, and is not bound by the simple rules of physics.
This allows free will to exist, although we don’t yet understand exactly how.
I respect philosophers of consciousness such as for instance Daniell Denett, who has progressed my understanding of consciousness a lot.
He does not believe in free will, which has become a much more popular opinion the past couple of decades, and which I was pretty convinced about too. But as Daniell Denett says, it is a very convincing illusion.
I have come to believe that it’s like the moon landing, the reason it is so convincing, is because it’s true.
I’d say there is evidence either way, so you can’t say it’s without evidence, I also pose the claim that Quantum physics unpredictability is irrelevant to the existence of free will. That is not what free will or consciousness arises from.
But you are right we cannot prove truly free will exist, and maybe it comes down to definition. Because we cannot have freedom to think that which we are incapable of imagining. But we are free to think we can fly, and then build a flying machine.