ik that Biden isn’t re-running, but Kamala is basically the same from the macro pov
I don’t see the logic.
I think we can all agree that genocide is bad, right? And we can all agree that is happening in Palestine is genocide, correct? And therefore we would like to elect someone who would be more likely to stop the genocide.
The Democrats don’t seem to want to stop… But neither do the republicans. I don’t see the argument.
To my understanding, neither party has any plans to stop the genocide so what the point of contention? I understand that simply voting will do nothing to fix anything, but picking the lesser evil (which is still evil) will buy us more time. Point is, voting for Trump wouldn’t be any better, nor voting for a 3rd party due to the flaws of the First Past The Post voting system.
If one should not vote for the Democrats, then who should we vote for? Trump? Seriously, what’s your plan?
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Anyone who explicitly decides against voting for Harris/Walz implicitly decides that they’re fine with Trump.
And anyone who explicitly decides voting for Harris/Walz explicitly decides they are fine with genocide irrespective of Trump.
If Trump promised to end the Palestinian Genocide, but all other points of his agenda (labor protections, lgbt rights etc.) were the same, would you vote for Trump instead? Would you fuck over every other bit of progress for that one issue?
In a fantasy world where he would actually do it, yes? So you’re saying you are okay with max libertarianism in your own county even if that means ethnically cleansing an innocent population in another? That’s a very backwards understanding of liberty and human rights.
Also saying “that one issue” when we’re talking about a literal genocide is super rich. Would you have said the same thing about the Holocaust? “I know this Hitler guy really hates minorities but look at how much he loves doggos and what amazing things he’s doing for the German economy!”
If the Overton Window can be yanked back to the left and the Christofascists left behind
You see voting for a party that has vowed unwavering support for an oppressor to exterminate a native population as a move to the left? You’d rather vote for Librofascists than Christofascists and that’s your choice - I’d rather not vote for fascists at all.
Just don’t blame voters that draw a hard line at genocide if the Dems lose, rather ask why they are willing to throw an election by not taking a hard stance against the literal worst crime against humanity.
The high horse you’ve chosen to mount will get us more genocide and a whole host of new issues for queer people and people of color. Nobody will be giving you moral brownie points for allowing that to happen.
Is your moral grandstanding worth the lives it’ll cost?
Is your moral grandstanding worth the lives it’ll cost?
You’re the one arguing in support of a situation where innocent people are dying right now. If killing based on group identity is wrong, as you say, then this is wrong.
whole host of new issues for queer people and people of color
This isn’t an either/or situation. We don’t have to sacrifice Palestinians (and Lebanese, and any other groups of civilians who become involved because Israel decides to do so) - including queer and of colour members of those communities - for our own safety.
And, if this is an either/or situation, we do need to allow people in a far-off country to die for our safety: fuck it. I don’t deserve to be safe more than them. Take my safety and kill me. The human world is not one I want to live in any longer, if we must sacrifice innocents in one country just because of the accident of their birth.
As you said elsewhere:
Like when I asked one of my friends how he reconciled the idea that everyone who commits suicide goes to hell with the fact that our mutual friend committed suicide… He said God is omnibenevolent so logically him being in hell for eternity is a good thing.
You clearly can’t reconcile the equivalent idea that people have to be killed just because of where they are. People should not be targeted with violence because they are queer, because they are of colour, or because they are in Palestine, Lebanon, or a similar country. Right?
Because of how First Past The Post voting works, it is an either/or situation. It’s just how the math works out. Democrats splitting their votes across multiple candidates means their influence is divided by the same amount. Republicans effectively have zero division in their party, so Democrats can’t afford to not vote for Kamala if they don’t want Trump to get more people killed.
I understand being disgusted by the lack of options, but the fact of the matter is you can prevent Trump from making it worse. Or you can sit on your ass while Trump gets more people killed.
but the fact of the matter is you can prevent Trump from making it worse.
No, I cannot.
Then stand by and watch him increase the death toll you claim to care about.
I’ll vote for the candidate who wants a cease-fire, rather than let the one who wants Israel to “win” get into office.
I’ll vote for the candidate who wants a cease-fire
I would definitely vote for a candidate who committed to pushing through a cease-fire, if I could vote. And if that person wasn’t Trump, because he’d be lying. And he wouldn’t say that anyway, because it’s not macho enough.
If you don’t like Trump then you should be begging Harris to act like she wants to get elected. Chastising voters because they don’t like your candidate is only going to make them dig in their heels.
Thanks for saying this. All she has to do is say that it is illegal and immoral to kill innocents, and she will work to reign Israel in on this.
If Israel can’t get rid of Hamas without committing state terrorism, they they just have to fucking stop.
Is your relative safety worth the lives of thousands of Palestinians? You seem to think so. But always remember - “pragmatic” support for the “lesser evil” isn’t going to result in less genocide - it just teaches them exactly how many atrocities you’re willing to accept.
When you tell politicians they can bomb any country, support any ethnic cleansing, and expand any war while still getting your vote as long as they wave a rainbow flag - you’re not preventing fascism, you’re just giving it a differently colored stamp of approval.
The fact that you think “moral brownie points” are even part of the discussion only shows you view the lives of people as nothing more than a political tool.
And look, if your moral framework tells you to vote blue - vote blue - but don’t let that be the end of it - go out and risk losing your freedom before there’s no-one left to risk theirs to save yours.
Which of the two choices in the US presidential election aren’t supporting a genocide?
Does your not voting for Harris end the genocide?
Which of the two choices in the US presidential election aren’t supporting a genocide?
This is my take. The U.S. government has already decided that it is going to support genocide. This topic is not up for a vote in 2024, the American public (i.e. voters) do not have the option of voting “no genocide please.”
We really need some reform to our election system, because when the 2 parties both decide they want something we are railroaded. We need to get rid of the Electoral College and have ranked-choice or some other form of voting that makes 3rd party candidates viable.
I’m not just talking about our safety, I’m talking about the lives of Palestinians.
Nobody on the left likes FPTP or anything else about our voting system, and we all know it’s bullshit, but this is what we have to work with. The moral brownie points you seem to be after won’t be found by crossing your arms and allowing Republicans to pour gasoline on the fire, and no amount of Democrats doing the same will outweigh the political BS that influenced the party to fund a genocide in the first place.
Is your moral grandstanding worth risking more lives in Palestine (in addition to all of the issues it’ll introduce for our own marginalized citizens)?
Again, vote for the lesser evil - just don’t forget they’re evil and even after the election cycle is over continue to employ direct action to force the complicit ruling class into actually doing something - instead of being able to rely on “vote blue no matter who” voters to get elected year after year while they’re slowing sliding to the right trying to win over conservatives.
And anyone who explicitly decides voting for Harris/Walz explicitly decides they are fine with genocide irrespective of Trump.
No. They decide that they prioritise the other issues over a vapid gesture of protest.
For direct democratic votes, you directly vote on a specific issue. But in a representative democracy, you vote for the candidate best representing your preferred policies. If there is no candidate that ticks all your boxes, you prioritise and decide on a tradeoff.
That tradeoff takes into account the strategic realities of the voting system. If I have to choose between “Genocide”, “Genocide, but worse” and “I’ll let the rest decide”, abstaining or voting 3rd party is no noble gesture, it’s complacency.
In a fantasy world where he would actually do it, yes?
You’d let an out and open fascist take the reigns, if he’d stop one particular genocide?
So you’re saying you are okay with max libertarianism in your own county even if that means ethnically cleansing an innocent population in another?
So much wrong with this sentence. First, no, I’m not a libertarian. If you mean liberty, check your translator. Second, we’re very far away from “max liberty”. Third, that’s a false equivalency: To refuse one extreme doesn’t equal embracing the opposite. There is a lot of space between them.
Fourth, if it’s about the defense of civil rights, I need to look to my own freedom first. I can’t help anyone else when I’m chained down myself. Particular if I can’t help the others this way anyway, it’s a lot smarter to prioritise things I can actually change than try to set a sign and hope it stays up long enough to matter.
Also saying “that one issue” when we’re talking about a literal genocide is super rich. Would you have said the same thing about the Holocaust? “I know this Hitler guy really hates minorities but look at how much he loves doggos and what amazing things he’s doing for the German economy!”
Brilliant! Your example for “that one issue” is the exact guy Trump would love to buddy uo with! The exact guy whom I hate with a passion because of so many issues, not just one. Would Hitler have been a good person if he hadn’t killed the Jews (just enslaved them, deported the gypsies and generally still been an all around racist cunt)?
You see voting for a party that has vowed unwavering support for an oppressor to exterminate a native population as a move to the left?
That says a lot about where the window is, yes. Because both major parties fit that description, except one of them is even worse. Hence, the less bad one is a left, relative to contemporary political center.
You’d rather vote for Librofascists than Christofascists and that’s your choice - I’d rather not vote for fascists at all.
So you’d rather have the rest of the people decide? You don’t care about gay rights or all that shit, you have no horse in that race, doesn’t matter to you whether the winner starts rounding up political enemies (you know, lefties like you and me)?
Because I fucking care. And I’m not going to throw a tantrum and quit the field because one issue I care about isn’t even on the board.
Just don’t blame voters that draw a hard line at genocide if the Dems lose, rather ask why they are willing to throw an election by not taking a hard stance against the literal worst crime against humanity.
I don’t understand why people are so sure that a hard pro-Palestine stance would help them. It would make them the prime target of propaganda designed to alienate the superficial moderates. It would make them a clear enemy of the AIPAC and other pro-Israel PACs that together hold a non-negligible amount of sway. I don’t think that the voters they’d gain by that outnumber the white moderates that hear “They’re antisemitic moslems” and believe it.
If you believe that using the ballot to protest an issue not being on the agenda is more important than the other issues that are on the agenda, you’re very narrow-minded.
No. They decide that they prioritise the other issues over a vapid gesture of protest.
Yes, saying that killing innocents is wrong is ‘vapid’.
Yet, when you - very rightly - raise the horrors of Trump, the very real and dangerous potential of him harming innocent people is terrible.
Are you contradicting yourself?
Yes, saying that killing innocents is wrong is ‘vapid’.
No. Refusing to vote or voting third party is. At best, it will make no difference.
Protesting against the Genocide is right and important, but I’m railing against the people intent on dragging this topic to the public right before an election. The only people it will affect are left-leaning voters, and drawing them away from the non-Trump option sabotages that option.
Save the protest until the election is done, then hold the government (not just Harris; allocation of funding is a parliamentary decision and the President’s veto can’t do much but delay it and lock up government) accountable.
To be clear, Genocide is bad, what’s happening in Gaza is Genocide, the US regime is complicit and all of this is fucked up. But the immediate priority should be unity to keep things from escalating beyond democratic control.
No. Refusing to vote or voting third party is. At best, it will make no difference.
Will anything make a difference to Israel being allowed to continue state terrorism and war against civilians? I’m concerned the answer might be ‘no’, as the political will to do this hasn’t been high.
but I’m railing against the people intent on dragging this topic to the public right before an election.
The killing of innocents is not less important just because of political convenience.
But the immediate priority should be unity to keep things from escalating beyond democratic control.
It is not the fault of a particular individual voter that they are given two options, both of which are right-wing, and both of which are complicit in killing the innocent. This might even be a situation which is not fixable at the ballot box, considering how Trump has a history of starting armed insurrections against democratic norms.
Will anything make a difference to Israel being allowed to continue state terrorism and war against civilians?
Only one way to find out: Trying. But mathematically, drawing votes away from the non-Trump candidate increases the risk of another Trump presidency, and that carries the risk of further curtailing options.
The killing of innocents is not less important just because of political convenience.
…and which innocents do you actually have a chance to protect?
On a pragmatic level, what is your suggested course of action?
On a pragmatic level, what is your suggested course of action?
I am not pragmatic about the chances of humans when it comes to not oppressing each other. They seem to do it in order to profit from the power imbalance.
I’m just saying I don’t like it, and waiting to die.
The first mistake was bartering with moderates - if a person is willing to compromise on genocide - what would they not be willing to compromise on?
MLK said it 60 years ago and it’s still true today: “…that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season’"
But keep waiting and hoping that next cycle the window wouldn’t have moved further to the right
This election isn’t the only measure to take, and it requires no waiting. You can still protest and riot and everything else - none of that conflicts with also voting. It’s not either or.
What MLK complains about are the people that only vote to stall and never do. I’m pretty sure he’d have been in favour of voting and taking action.
What else do you propose? What do you think would be the strategic choice?
As I replied to the commenter above - I’m not telling anyone to not vote for whoever they think has the highest chance of minimizing harm - just don’t rely on voting being the only way to exercise your opinion (as some people have claimed is the only power they have left) - if you remember that voting blue is a just a short term strategy to prevent orange man from getting in and fucking shit up - do it. But don’t forget that voting is only the beginning - and until we have tens of millions out on the streets protesting against the Dems being okay with literal genocide - nothing will change for the better.
We can’t have our freedoms be won on the backs of bombing children - it wasn’t okay when Obama did it - it’s not okay now.
I’m not telling anyone to not vote for whoever they think has the highest chance of minimizing harm
And anyone who explicitly decides voting for Harris/Walz explicitly decides they are fine with genocide irrespective of Trump.
Was that not your comment? Equating “you vote for Harris” with “you don’t care about genocide” does sound like you’re trying to influence people away from voting Harris.
My argument is that harm reduction ≠ endorsement of genocide. Voting for a block of policies doesn’t mean you’re fine with all the policies, just that you think it’s the most strategic option for your convictions. Not voting leaves the choice up to everyone.
Unless you think voting will make no difference at all for anything, even the chance of slowing catastrophe and buying time for other measures is valuable.
Because on this point we agree:
voting blue is a just a short term strategy to prevent orange man from getting in and fucking shit up
I think both can be true - strategically voting for dems is still a conscious choice to vote for a party that supports foreign genocide.
Like in the trolley problem - you can decide to kill less people but you’re still a murderer either way - and because your hand was forced you can then spend the rest of your life using the guilt to figure out who tied those people to the tracks and how to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
My fear is that the bread and circus that the dems are selling is too comfortable so people wouldn’t feel the need to rise up in arms against the system since “they haven’t come for them yet” - but so long as blue voters always remember they have blood on their hands and feel remorseful about the choice they made - that can be channeled into positive change via direct action.
I don’t know what to think about people claiming to be LGBT+ allies who would even remotely entertain not voting Harris… as the risk to the people they say they want to protect is domestic as well. This is a palestinians lose or everyone lose waaaayyyyy worse kinda deal … so yeah… apparently ideals don’t matter that much.
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I’m literally queer both in terms of sexuality and gender 💀💀 and am against genocide precisely bc of my principles (though I don’t live in the US)
bc choosing to support the “lesser of two evils” since they won’t target you domestically is lacking any and all backbone. “The dems can have a little genocide, as a treat. After all, they protect minorities in the ‘civilised west’ and that is the only place that counts” (not putting words in your mouth, just that this is what the position essentially boils down to)
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Why are all your arguments “if you don’t do X you’re doing Y”?
Has the two-party system defeated you so much that you can’t see anything but binary choices? It’s been decades of being forced to choose between two bad choices and you’ve been choosing a bad option every time, on the promise of a better one next election. But you’re never going to get an alternative if you just keep voting for the lesser of two evils every 4 years.
And I hope the Putin comment is just that and not a xenophobic dogwhistle because their name is in Cyrillic…
I’m sorry but if you believe you can only be gay if brown people get genocided you’re not gay and you just want to kill children.
If someone is willing to genocide anyone, then they’ll come for you eventually too. Nazis didn’t start their genocide with Jews.
Stick your strawman. Brown people dying is not a precondition… I did not imply that at all. It’s that more people will suffer and die if trump is not defeated. It’s like saying Hitlers opponent was also bad… yeah maybe… but he’s not advocating fascism.
Genocide and support for genocide is fascism. Harris is advocating for fascism.
If they’re willing to fully fund the elimination of Palestinians, they wont stop when they are gone. You might not be next on the list, but you’re on the list, we all are under a genocidal government.
Does not voting for Harris end the genocide?
No, the right wing pro Zionist, “there are no red lines for Israel,” candidate will not help to end the genocide randomly reversing course on her entire campaign.
Sorry, maybe I should’ve phrased my rhetorical question better or maybe that I’m too worn out is making me unable to read your comment as anything but a non-sequitor.
Does voting for Trump, voting third party, or abstaining help end the decades of ethnic cleansing that Israel has enacted, and continues to enact, with bipartisan US support?
No, no, no, and no to voting for Harris in the same line of questioning.
However a vote for Harris or trump is consent for genocide on your behalf using your taxes.
Alas, they don’t need or want consent. And there isn’t consent based tax spending.
If you feel better by spoiling your ballot. Go ahead. I’ve done it plenty. But that sense of moral purity doesn’t end the genocide either.
It’s about changing the system, not the figurehead. And changing that system tends to be easier and go better when the figurehead is less likely to call the army to shoot on left wing protests early.
And the genocide isn’t going to end tomorrow, so why throw other people under the bus?
I’m sorry what world are you living in?
The VP for the Harris campaign LITERALLY called the military on left wing protestors as governor.
To your last point, if you believe your life continuing requires genocide, you need to die. Not a call for violence, but anyone that believes that is objectively a Nazi.
No one is saying how dare you vote for trump to people voicing concerns. People are saying that to individuals willingly not voting, voting for trump in “protest,” or voting third party in “protest”
There’s no protest, though. Third parties are the only logical option for anyone with any amount of humanity left in them. Only fascists would vote for genocide, only selfish fascists would vote for genocide on the thought that if they don’t they’ll get genocided as punishment.
Sure broski, vote third party, help trump. Other elections I don’t care, but this one has a literal nazi running and a lady who is criticized for not doing enough to stop Israel. So naturally help the nazi
You people have said this exact nonsense since Reagan.
It’s always the next election that you might get to vote for something, instead of against something.
No, child, I’m not voting for genocide. Your idealized fantasy land you call a world view isn’t valid. There are no good people in either the democratic or Republican parties. They are all literally genocidal fascists. No exaggeration. They are actively commiting genocide.
Your vote for either of those parties is to normalize and consent to that genocide as well as any other that doesn’t affect you. That is quite literally, again not exaggerating, a Nazi belief. That genocide needs to happen, because otherwise you’ll be a victim of genocide. That is literally the line used by the Nazis to justify killing the Jews before the Jews kill them.
Now if I’m wrong and vote third party and that third party wins, I have not voted for genocide and we at least entirely withdraw from the middle east.
If that third party does not win or I’m not wrong and they do win, genocide happens that I have stated my explicit disapproval of, I continue to join protests, work in my mutual aid group, and work to make the world better against the government who wanrs to make it worse until im i evitably killed by either the trump or harris governments.
If trump wins, the safety of people in my family and of my friends is in danger. I have come to this conclusion by what he and his associates have actually said and written. Not some random scare tactic. This is not a moral handwringing. They are going to harm my folks right here, as they have gleefully said.
Do we like ‘lesser evil?’ No. But I have unfortunately not been wrong about these horrible people since I began researching the alt right trend in 2014. Making sure they don’t have power again is far more important than a protest vote.
The likelihood you’d get killed by a Harris government is by FAR less than with a Trump govt, and if you don’t see that you are fearfully delusional, and I am not saying that as a personal attack, but as a genuine concern.
So we are clear, I am against this farce of a war in the mid-east, against the surveillance state we are building, for ranked choice voting, strongly for healthcare for all, for housing first, and am a part of the local mutual aid groups.
And Reagan really started this slide, so not terribly useful to call that crying wolf.
Youre not the only queer person, you are not the only person with queer family and friends, you do not get to speak on behalf of the queer community. I am queer, I have family that are queer, I have friends that are queer. I am not supporting genocide. I am not voting democrat, and I am not voting republican. And I will not let democrats hold me, my family, and my friends rights hostage to coerce me into voting for them. This whole idea that if you dont vote democrat you vote republican is exactly why third parties have no chance of winning. This isnt a “if you vote democeat you are voting for republican,” this is a situation where if you don’t vote third party or boycott, then you are voting for genocide. You could stop genocide and keep yourself, friends, and family safe if you stopped letting democrats hold you and everyone else hostage. I will not be forced to choose between one genocide or two genocides, I will choose no genocides.
literally the meme rn 💀
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I’m part of the lgbtq community, and have been longer than you’ve likely been alive. I’ve lived through worse things than your fear mongering can come up with. my existence is not worth the genocide of others, and we know from history those that commit genocide do not stop with their original target.
Democrats, having thoroughly and completely endorsed genocide, who have sent troops to aide in genocide, who have bombed civilian populations in dissenting countries in defense of genocide are not going to stop when Palestinians are a historical group only.
Voting for them with the vague thought that they might spare you is stupid at best, suicide at worst.
💯💯💯💯 We keep us safe! No cops, governments, or politicians are gonna protect us. Pride started as a riot!
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Trump said he will support Israel as well wich is probably his only based take.
Trump’s a Nazi, so supporting a genocidal ethnostate is perfectly ideologically consistent for him.
I think ethnostates are bad though, and only a dipshit or a monster would support them.
I think ethnostates are bad though
I wish everyone believed this.
Yeah. It’s scary to see how many freaks can be convinced otherwise are all over the place.
leaving this up for everyone to see. person is ofc permabanned
You are a great mod. Thank you.
