Linus Torvalds Comments On The Russian Linux Maintainers Being Delisted
www.phoronix.com
  • rtxn@lemmy.worldEnglish
    953·
    10 天前

    The comments under the article are a special kind of braindead.

    • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.worldEnglish
      71·
      10 天前

      Always is with Phoronix comments.

      You find everything there from “Gnome is satanist” all the way up to pro-genocide crap.

      I really don’t know what it is about the site that brings out the craziest souch.

      • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
        5624·
        10 天前

        For half a second there, I was like “yeah, so glad Lemmy is more rational than that site”.

        Few comments later, folks be talking about “Ukranian Nazis”…

        • Jesus_666@lemmy.world
          218·
          10 天前

          Hoo boy, you weren’t kidding. I find it amazing how quickly this went from “the kernel team is enforcing sanctions” to an an unfriendly abstract debate about the definition of liberalism. I shouldn’t, really, but I still am.

        • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
          125·
          10 天前

          Hahaha I saw the parent commentor of that chain notorious for getting into back and forth arguments, sometimes reasonable sometimes not, and I thought to myself, this is going to be fun. Then I recognized the username of that other .ml user as a known troll and I was like, yep now this is going to go way off the rails.

          • GeneralInterest@lemmy.worldEnglish
            51·
            8 天前

            I would wager that every country has far-right elements, including Russia.

            What Russia claims though is that the Ukrainian government is full of Nazis, which I don’t think is true.

      • LupertEverett@lemmy.world
        4·
        9 天前

        The absolute disregard of having any moderation is what does that. If there was any, there wouldn’t be the cases like having someone be there by their third account, after the first two got banned.

        Not to mention that controversy = angry people and trolls = more clicks = more ad revenue. I don’t think Michael wants to miss out on it.

    • Aatube@kbin.melroy.org
      473·
      10 天前

      Yeah. Why is everyone saying this is removing their contribution credits? It’s just a list of active maintainers…

      • rtxn@lemmy.worldEnglish
        12·
        10 天前

        That’s a fair point. I rarely read comments on news articles, but morbid curiosity overpowered my self-preservation instinct.

    • JustMarkov@lemmy.mlEnglish
      484·
      9 天前

      No, it’s not like Israel is attacking its neighbors. It doesn’t, does it?

      • bastion@feddit.nl
        33·
        9 天前

        It’s not about punishing Russia, is admit preventing vulnerability to a country that has an ongoing effort to compromise infosec.

        Not at all saying Israel doesn’t suck balls right now.

        • JustMarkov@lemmy.mlEnglish
          41·
          8 天前

          a country that has an ongoing effort to compromise infosec.

          Any confirmation, that these specific maintainers were compromising something?

      • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
        161·
        9 天前

        I would never. The idea that any person should be disbarred from contributing to FOSS due to the actions of their government, is incredibly exclusionary. Linus is acting as much like a toddler as daddy USA is.

    • Quail4789@lemmy.mlEnglish
      124·
      9 天前

      The west is sanctioning Russia because their daddy US tells them to. Similarly they don’t sanction Israel because of daddy.

  • jol@discuss.tchncs.de
    9324·
    9 天前

    Linus has never been the best communicator, but he usually speaks the truth. But this is just bonkers and wrong. Not everyone living in Russia has “ties with Russia” other than “they were born there”. If this is about sanctions, he could have still just told them that. But instead he just disrespected contributors completely and then double down in it by being xenophobic.

    • Jumuta@sh.itjust.works
      466·
      9 天前

      It’s really disappointing seeing Russian contributors being disrespected like this, the regime that rules Russia wasn’t entirely their fault, and allegiance, nationality, and ethnicity are all clearly different things

      Also, wouldn’t a state sponsored Russian hacker pretend to be from the US or something anyway? No way they’d contribute code as a Russian, that’d just increase others’ suspicion

      I agree with Linus a lot too but I strongly disagree here. I hope he’s just being made to say this because of government policies

    • Goun@lemmy.ml
      359·
      9 天前

      I don’t understand how sanctions can impact free software, tbh, what’s free about this? This leaves a weird taste, I have to admit.

  • ouch@lemmy.world
    693·
    9 天前

    As a finn, I understand that there are probably legal reasons for doing this.

    I just wish they would be transparent and share those reasons with us. The Linux kernel is certainly not the only free software project that is impacted, if this comes straight from EU/US sanctions. Maintainers of other projects have a lot of interest in what is happening.

    Transparency is also important because if EU/US policy/sanctions are causing issues for free software projects, then that discussion needs to be public, so that there is a chance to amend the policies if necessary.

      • JackbyDev@programming.devEnglish
        12·
        9 天前

        FOSS is inherently political though, but I guess you mean country vs country politics moreso than ideological politics.

      • kmaismith@lemm.ee
        7·
        9 天前

        That is hardcore wishful thinking, the nature by which critical digital infrastructure is developed and maintained is of keen importance to political systems everywhere. This situation was inevitable with the ongoing escalation of war

        • Alsephina@lemmy.mlEnglish
          5·
          9 天前

          That’s why the “should be” I guess, though that’s not to say there aren’t idiots (right in this thread too) actually shilling for this.

          If current open source licenses still have flaws like this, we’re gonna need new ones.

      • orcrist@lemm.ee
        4·
        9 天前

        It has to be there, because politics is connected with lawmaking, and open source software is dependent on laws.

        A lot of people like to say that politics isn’t in their life or that they keep politics out of their life, but the reality is that’s just not true. The rules that govern society affect you, always, either with or without your input, either with or without your acknowledgment.

        You’re probably trying to say that we should keep pointless politicking out of open source software, and I agree, but that’s going to come down to personal definitions of pointlessness.

    • sudo@programming.dev
      102·
      8 天前

      The legal reasons was because the Linux Foundation is based in the USA and the targeted devs worked for companies explicitly sanctioned by the USA. Linus said he knew and trusted the devs he was forced to delist.

      The Linux Foundation needs to relocate to some stable neutral country like Switzerland.

  • umbrella@lemmy.ml
    7717·
    9 天前

    so are we okay with banning development time donated to foss because of nationality?

    are these people found to support heinous shit or is this just wartime shenanigans?

    • half_built_pyramids@lemmy.world
      2815·
      8 天前

      Dude is Finnish, from his own mouth, it’s just normal racism against an aggressive imperial, like how people hate the us

      Edit: like how people from lemmy.ml hate Americans, if that wasn’t clear

      • umbrella@lemmy.ml
        3319·
        9 天前

        finland has pretty bad climate-change-exploitation-fucking-over-the-third-world dealings in my country, despite enforcing seemingly very good stuff inside their own borders so meh, id argue they aint close to the victims they make out to be. some would argue that as a consequence for having a strong socialist influence.

        i have mixed feelings about them as a country, but i recognize there are plenty of good (and even well known good) people on there because of the aforementioned good stuff, linus included. for different but not that dissimilar reasons i think contemporary russian citizens should not be blanket banned from helping everyone out.

        • ouch@lemmy.world
          113·
          9 天前

          finland has pretty bad, climate-change-exploitation-fucking-over-the-third-world dealings in my country

          Which country is that, and what dealings?

          • umbrella@lemmy.ml
            61·
            9 天前

            brazil, and they do some shady stuff in the amazon. mainly fuck you extrativism.

            • ouch@lemmy.world
              5·
              9 天前

              Can you find any links where one can read about this?

              If Finland is wasting tax payer money to something shady, it should be brought to the local media.

              • umbrella@lemmy.ml
                41·
                9 天前

                heres one i found with a quick google.

                this one is about southeast/northeast brazil, but the finnish are involved in aggressive extractivism in northwest brazil (amazon rainforest) too, and i think its even worse over there. you will dig up pretty horrible things if you do some research on it. about most of the western 1st world countries tbh.

    • hitwright@lemmy.world
      3110·
      9 天前

      I’m pretty sure not just the US wants Russia sanctioned to the oblivion. All of the Europe that borders Russia wants that. Now why would it be like that?

      • gigachad@sh.itjust.works
        93·
        9 天前

        It makes no sense to discuss here.They probably follow Russia’s narrative of Europe being a puppet of the US.

    • dan@upvote.au
      164·
      9 天前

      In the article, Linus explicitly said that it’s not just a US thing:

      And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren’t troll farm accounts - the “various compliance requirements” are not just a US thing.

      • Phoenix3875@lemmy.world
        9·
        8 天前

        That’s more like his opinion or a post facto justification. Turns out it is a US thing.

        If your company is on the U.S. OFAC SDN lists, subject to an OFAC sanctions program, or owned/controlled by a company on the list, our ability to collaborate with you will be subject to restrictions, and you cannot be in the MAINTAINERS file.

        So to get back, you have to basically prove that you have no relations with OFAC SDN companies.

        This update is from https://lwn.net/Articles/995186/

  • Arcturus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    579·
    9 天前

    We’re gonna start seeing large open source communities start to break into smaller ones because of sanctions from now aren’t we?

  • communism@lemmy.ml
    6725·
    9 天前

    Everyone who disagrees with me is a paid russian troll of course. Nobody would oppose blacklisting people based on nothing but their nationality unless they were getting paid for it.

    • hitwright@lemmy.world
      2118·
      9 天前

      I guess it’s difficult to otherwise explain the position you have? It’s not like people face criminal charges in Russia just for speaking against it. It’s easy to see how the state would want to introduce backdoors to most western systems.

      It’s extremely sad that a lot of good Russians get swooped in this. But even abroad their lives are in danger to fight the state.

      • ghu@lemmy.ml
        252·
        9 天前

        I doubt if someone wants to introduce a backdoor, they would do that with a russian mailing address. People removed were open and transparent about their nationalities which means there is even less chance them being bad actors than some random guy pretending to be American.

        • hitwright@lemmy.world
          14·
          9 天前

          Aren’t the removed commiters with direct access to the kernel? It’s not like it’s some rando that makes pull requests.

      • davel [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
        610·
        9 天前

        I think you’re making up a world in your head. Who are these “lots” of “good” Russians who are abroad and whose lives are in realistically danger of state assassination? Not that it has never happened, but you’re blowing things out of proportion. Probably Russia does it at a scale roughly similar to the US.

        • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          153·
          9 天前

          I think you’re making up a world in your head.

          My friend, they poisoned people in the UK with a fucking nerve agent. They are so brazen and open about people being killed for not doing that the Kremlin tells them.

          They have purposely made a meme out of the “suspiciously fell from window” thing, because they want people to know exactly what happens and why.

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
            410·
            9 天前

            they poisoned people in the UK with a fucking nerve agent.

            Yes, they did. How often is that happening? Proportion.

            • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              7·
              8 天前

              We’re not talking about taking out former spies in foreign, sovereign nations you dolt. I used that as an example to show just how brazen and open they are about this stuff. Using such a dangerous method, on foreign soil, is basically unheard of.

              If you actually want to talk about frequency, we should be looking at the defenestration cases…

              This shit is happening so frequently that there are several wiki pages dedicated to listing them:

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_deaths_of_notable_Russians_in_2022

              Scroll down to “see also” for a long list of related articles about the Russian government assassinating citizens and low-level bureaucrats.

              Assuming you actually give a shit

              EDIT: apparently Lemmy markdown doesn’t like the link. For anyone who can’t figure out why it’s not working, or for some weird reason thinks I would make up a wiki page with a title that specific:

              Suspicious deaths of notable Russians in 2022–2024

              And, again, after checking out the main article, take a look at the “see also” section.

              • davel [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
                37·
                9 天前

                Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.

                In any case, the defenestrations I’ve heard of have been within Russia, not outside it.

                Using such a dangerous method, on foreign soil, is basically unheard of.

                Not unheard of. US drone strikes on US citizens is a no-less dangerous a method.

                • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                  2·
                  8 天前

                  It’s almost as if the markdown on Lemmy changed the text of the link so it’s not valid.

                  And you couldn’t take the 3 second to fix it, and then actually learn something.

                  Well done.

                  You also seem confused about what we are even talking about. We are referring to software developers WITHIN RUSSIA. So the risk of defenestration is very real. Again, to repeat myself, I only brought up Russia using chemical warfare on foreign soil as an example to show how open and brazen they are.

                  I edited the original comment with a fixed link if you actually care

        • LeFantome@programming.dev
          6·
          9 天前

          Very nice link that not only does not have a list of names but also fairly explicitly explains that it is not talking about Americans killing Americans.

          I am not going to spend more than 30 seconds on it but here is the first list of “lots” of Russians that are believed to have been assassinated by their own government.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_deaths_of_notable_Russians_in_2022–2024

          Despite your personal attacks, the trivially discoverable facts are not on your side.

          I used Wikipedia since you apparently find it credible.

          My favourite “suicide” of a notable Russian in the last couple of years was the one that had a suicide note signed by “illegible signature” ( what it actually said ). I guess the FSB did not totally understand the instructions.

          Indeed A LOT of falling out of windows. Quite a bit of poisoning as well. These are the successful ones. How about that time they poisoned the entire Ukrainian peace team including the owner of the Chelsea Football Club?

    • Vilian@lemmy.ca
      1028·
      9 天前

      That’s true, as he said just use your brain, Russia is under sanctions he literally said that, so Russian troll is a actually very accuracy

  • Arelin@lemmy.zip
    5614·
    9 天前

    He’s gonna ban american and “israeli” maintainers too then, I guess?

    • mihor@lemmy.ml
      3750·
      10 天前

      No, it’s not good, it’s blatantly russophobic.

      I would get it if he would have simply stated that the Linux Foundation needs to abide by the sanctions, pretty much what GKH had said. But for Linus to go ahead with his stupid russophobic rant about Russian bot farms (LOL) is really too much.

      • Vincent@feddit.nl
        122·
        9 天前

        I would get it if he would have simply stated that the Linux Foundation needs to abide by the sanctions

        I mean, that’s basically what he said:

        If you haven’t heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day.

        Doesn’t sound like they banned Russians in general, just people employed by sanctioned companies.

        • coolusername@lemmy.ml
          219·
          9 天前
          1. https://www.rt.com/russia/550493-ukraine-donbass-military-operation-prehistory/
          2. They aren’t committing war crimes at all. You may be referring to something Ukraine made up. For example their own air defense hit civilian apartments and they blamed it on Russia. There are also many many many videos and photos on telegram of Ukranian soldiers hiding in kindergartens and hospitals. They also park military vehicles near apartment blocks to the dismay of the people inside. There’s photo and video evidence of this.

          Really it’s the reverse – Ukraine is committing war crimes. Shelling civilians is a war crime. Murdering people you think that are sympathetic to the Russian gov is a war crime.

          1. Ukraine’s?? They (the gov, which we installed and control) deserve it.
          2. No evidence for this at all. In fact, if you go back to the original Russiagate claim it was debunked by the CEO of Crowdstrike.
    • kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      741·
      10 天前

      Yes, the sanctions against Russia, as mentioned by Linus. The change also said the maintainers “can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided”.

      My guess is that the Linux Foundation must ensure that none of the people they work with are in any way associated with any organisation, person or activity on the sanctions list. And that they preemptively removed all maintainers that might risk violating the sanctions while they work with them to establish whether they might be covered by the sanctions or not.

      Regardless of what you or they think of the sanctions, they are the law, and I don’t think anyone wants the Linux Foundation to have to spend their money on lawyers and fines because they had a maintainer who also worked on a research project funded by a sanctioned entity. (If that is how it works, IANAL)

      • proton_lynx@lemmy.world
        131·
        9 天前

        OK, that’s the first reasonable explanation I’ve come across. I wish Greg Linus didn’t reply in that kind of “angry” tone, because for some of us it’s not that obvious.

      • Whom@beehaw.orgEnglish
        10·
        10 天前

        Yeah, it seems like they genuinely are just trying to be compliant with the law. I do think the “anyone who has concerns about this is a Russian troll” thing is obnoxious though, knowing of the existence of sanctions doesn’t mean we’re all lawyers who know the requirements here for open source projects.

        • kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          5·
          9 天前

          The massive negative outcry over this fairly uninteresting change certainly seems oddly overblown, almost as if there are parties trying to turn it into a big political issue to paint Russia as a victim. But idk, nerds freak out over stuff all the time completely on their own.

          Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I think the Linux Foundation has a hard time being clear on the matter because it just isn’t clear. These are new laws and a global open source cooperation run by a non-profit is likely a corner case that the lawmakers did not think about at all when making them.

          • Whom@beehaw.orgEnglish
            4·
            9 天前

            almost as if there are parties trying to turn it into a big political issue to paint Russia as a victim

            Idk, there’s probably some of that but until today with the clarification that the bans are happening from a list of employers they’re required not to work with, things were pretty unclear and I don’t think it was unreasonable to assume they were going beyond what was required…especially with Linus’ response being pretty tone deaf given the information critics had. People were angry what seemed like random Russian citizens were being targeted and Linus responded angrily as if we all already knew their employers were on a list despite it not being reported yet.

            It’s not a huge deal but Linus is just not very good at handling this kind of thing. Nerds should have assumed there was more behind the scenes and given the benefit of the doubt, though.

      • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
        254·
        10 天前

        Sanctions apply on OS development?

        I dont know ennough on the topic, does this ecen check out?

        • pelya@lemmy.world
          363·
          10 天前

          Yes they do. See the long-standing debate over the ban to export crypto algorithms to Iran.

        • priapus@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          293·
          10 天前

          As they said in the article, they are just listening to their lawyers. I would assume those lawyers are correct.

              • Hildegarde@lemmy.world
                17·
                10 天前

                Lawyers will also usually advice the safer option. Even if your actions are legal, if its boarderline enough you have to defend your actions in court, its expensive and risky.

            • TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
              3·
              9 天前

              Lawyers will be honest or dishonest, just depending on what’s best for the person who is paying them. Their jobs are dependent on getting good outcomes for their clients, so they can most definitely be trusted if you are the one paying them.

            • daggermoon@lemmy.world
              22·
              9 天前

              Lawyer slander is so fucking stupid. Would you not want a lawyer on your side if it was your ass on the line? A lawyer’s job isn’t to judge wrong or right. It’s to convince a judge or jury of one’s innocence. A lawyer has to defend the morally fucked the same as they do the innocent. You can’t have one without the other.

              I know this isn’t a criminal proceeding or anything of the sort but I sense that’s what the comment was referring to.

          • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
            736·
            10 天前

            That’s a generic fuck you, I don’t need to explain myself.

            Which does make me question their reasoning even more tbh

    • Leaflet@lemmy.worldEnglish
      196·
      9 天前

      Reuters reports:

      Finland is experiencing suspicious acts of sabotage and disruption and believes Russia is engaged in broad-ranging influence operations against it and other European countries

      Since Linus is Finnish, this literally hits home for him, hence (probably) his reaction.

      • jol@discuss.tchncs.de
        194·
        9 天前

        Yes, but this action sounds as effective against Russian espionage as burning any clothes that has red blue and white in them.

    • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
      3174·
      10 天前

      Nobody has stated any actual reason. Based on Linus’ comments, Russophobia is the likely answer.

      • IsoKiero@sopuli.xyzEnglish
        4016·
        10 天前

        Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.

        When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).

        Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team. There’s of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.

        Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.

        So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn’t unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.

        In current global environment we’re living in, I’d rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn’t take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don’t need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.

        • InverseParallax@lemmy.worldEnglish
          177·
          10 天前

          Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.

          I mean, if my country suffered through the Winter War, I’d consider that a very rational fear.

          I’m sure Jews are pretty nervous around German hyper-nationalists too.

        • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
          2030·
          10 天前

          Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational.

          Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.

          When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).

          This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.

          Though I don’t see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?

          Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team.

          To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I’d a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.

          Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field.

          Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.

          Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.

          That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.

          • InverseParallax@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1610·
            10 天前

            Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia.

            Ok, seems logical so far.

            Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?

            I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.

            • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
              1622·
              10 天前

              Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?

              I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?

              I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.

              At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.

              Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.

              • hitwright@lemmy.world
                15·
                9 天前

                This country attacked me. Should I allow their enemies to reach them through my territory? Sure.

                “USSR correctly predicted this!”

                The timeline is fuwky wucky in your argument mate

                • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
                  66·
                  9 天前

                  Ah yes, the famed “reluctant” Nazi collaborators that just had to help Nazis and build death camps to get revenge on the Russkies.

                  I wonder why all of these liberals here keep making excuses for Nazis and Nazi collaborators.

        • pelya@lemmy.world
          379·
          10 天前

          The security issue is very likely scenario. If you’re in Russia, you can go to jail at any moment on totally bogus charges. It is very easy for FSB to pressure some random kernel maintainer into adding hard to detect backdoor into their code, it will be XZ situation all over again.

          • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
            83·
            10 天前

            thank you… now this makes sense.

            so presumably this applied to Russians nationals living within Russia.

            If that’s accurate, the measure is proper IMHO

        • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
          2166·
          10 天前

          Liberals love collective punishment and have been in a Russophobic bender for decades, with an uptick in recent years. They hate all Russians and repeat racist rhetoric from Ukrainian Nazis.

            • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
              1932·
              10 天前

              Liberalism is primarily an international term. You are very confused if you think it is just about US “left” politics.

              And I said that there are Ukrainian Nazis whose racism is repeated by liberals. This is a simple fact.

              • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
                1712·
                10 天前

                Ukrainian Nazis

                this propaganda is no longer any good bro… 2014-22, it was decent engagement slop for the westoid but it don’t work. why are y’all still using it?

              • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.worldEnglish
                412·
                10 天前

                I’m well aware that liberal is an international term.

                However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.

                People in the US wouldn’t describe an expansion in gun rights as something the libs would want, for example.

                Nor would people in the US agree that liberal people want more freedoms for businesses.

                But those are parts of liberal ideology elsewhere.

                And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.

                • ZeroHora@lemmy.mlEnglish
                  114·
                  10 天前

                  When he says “Liberals love collective punishment…” he is not saying left wing, he is saying loudly right wing.

                • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
                  118·
                  10 天前

                  I’m well aware that liberalism is an international term.

                  Yet you assumed I made a US-specific reference when I did in no way do so.

                  However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.

                  Yes I know. I was not using it in that sense.

                  And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.

                  It is not bullshit. There are and have been Ukrainian Mazis and liberals falling over themselves to repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
            139·
            10 天前

            Reporter: [REDACTED]
            Reason: Ukranians aren’t nazis

            The ones that are, are.

            Reporter: [REDACTED]
            Reason: Misinformation, hate speech against UA

            Only love speech for Banderites, please.

          • InverseParallax@lemmy.worldEnglish
            63·
            10 天前

            I mean, I hate most Russians, but only since they invaded Ukraine.

            Russia whines endlessly about ancient wrongs against them, the Finns have a lot to remember about Russia too.

            • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
              88·
              10 天前

              Presumably you also hate most Americans and Israelis, then.

              Personally, I only hate those who take an active role in a major injustice and am merely frustrated with those who are passive, and I do so consistently across nationalities.

                • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
                  85·
                  10 天前

                  I think Palestinians have a right to be angry at Israelis, even to the point of potential violence.

                  And yet, by and large, Palestinians, facing genocide, focus their fights on soldiers and military equipment while showing empathy towards those Israelis who aren’t actively expressing racism towards them.

                  But yes Palestinians do have every right to resist occupation and genocide through violence.

                  But this was not my question. It is whether you consiste tky believe in and apply the rhetoric you are using or whether you are, note likely, swept up in the current hate-on towards all Russians.

                  Much in the same way I think Russians have long passed a historical threshold for which we should consider whether they are compatible with civilized society.

                  This reads as very racist and draws on orientalist tropes. I assume you picked them up from the upsurge in fascistic rhetoric, including from Ukrainian Nazis whose rhetoric has been amplified and anonymized/filtered through mainstream repetitiom, and have not discovered this talking point de novo.

                  We gave them a shot after the USSR fell, they didn’t take the opportunity to clean up their act.

                  tf are you talking about. The fall of the USSR came with a mass expropriation if wealth and industry and social programs at the expense of tens of millions of lives. Attempts to join the imperial core were rebuffed, it was placed in permanent shock therapy territory and systematically excluded. They did exactly what Western interests wanted them to do. This is the Russia your ideology created.

                  So now we’re going back to it, confrontation.

                  There was never a pause in imperialist escalation.

                  Only this time we’re not 2-3x stronger than them, we’re 10-20x. I like those odds.

                  I see that rather than ask yourself whether you consistently apply your logic, you are here just revealing that you are a nationalist that truly does not care and is now excited for a world war.

          • AbidanYre@lemmy.worldEnglish
            54·
            10 天前

            Hmm yes, we all remember when noted liberal Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest geopolitical threat facing the US.

              • just_another_person@lemmy.world
                1010·
                10 天前

                I didn’t think that being murdered by Putin’s thugs is specifically Homophobic, but do let us know in the comments.

                Like and Subscribe.

                • Warl0k3@lemmy.world
                  85·
                  10 天前

                  It seems pretty clear that the negative implication is putin’s regime abusing his authority for sexual favors (especially given all the mass rapes by russian forces in ukraine…) and not that said favors are bad because theyre gay. It’s telling that they assumed it was based in homophobia, though.

      • faltryka@lemmy.world
        135·
        10 天前

        All it takes is reading the article to see why it was done. You clearly did not do that and instead inserted your own agenda.

        • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
          913·
          10 天前

          I did read the article and drew the conclusion I just stated. Feel free to offer your own take.

          • faltryka@lemmy.world
            71·
            10 天前

            While he certainly wasn’t sensitive about how he said it, he did state is was sanctions related.

            • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
              714·
              10 天前

              He was not clear on that at all. For all we know it could be an excuse among the several vague ones he gave or a reference to pressure from Feds.

              • faltryka@lemmy.world
                8·
                10 天前

                And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren’t troll farm accounts - the “various compliance requirements” are not just a US thing.

                If you haven’t heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by “news”, I don’t mean Russian state-sponsored spam.

                • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
                  46·
                  10 天前

                  The “various comoliance requirements” are unstated. Everything here is being left to a vague implication.

              • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
                115·
                10 天前

                Becuase russia and israel are causing seriouss issues currently.

                Before you do america too… Decent part of america was not larping the war either. It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.

                Hopefully never again but who are we kidding…

                • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
                  1211·
                  10 天前

                  Before you do america too

                  Yes this is the obvious cognitive dissonance that arises from my question. The US has invaded and bombed countries, couped countries, plunged millions into poverty and death, consistently for decades. Buy I don’t see any if you saying, “Fuck America” and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.

                  The US is backing Israel’s genocide to the hilt righy now. It would not happen without American support that Israel depends on. And most European countries are backseat supporters if that agenda. Where is your bleating for villification of every person from all those countries?

                  Decent part of america was not larping the war either.

                  Which war? There have been so many US-bscked wars in recent years that I have no idea which one you would be referring to.

                  But I am confused about the qualifier. Who had said anything about larping? This is collective punishment and chauvinism against all Russians.

                  It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.

                  Can I get a “Fuck America”?

                  Hopefully never again but who are we kidding…

                  Not just never again, it is happening right now, under Dems, with support of their candidates that is part of the admin doing genocide. Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?

              • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.worldEnglish
                54·
                10 天前

                Because Russia has invaded another country and is currently committing a genocide. Christ 🤦‍♀️

                • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
                  811·
                  10 天前

                  Russia is not committing a genocide. However, the US and Israel are have been invading Lebanon and Syria.

                  Do you support removing all Americans from the maintainer lost? Can I get a “Fuck America”?

            • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
              145·
              10 天前

              Of course it is. It is punishing all members of a nationality for the actions if their government.

              • Bookmeat@lemmy.world
                59·
                10 天前

                I didn’t realize all Russians were in the Linux kernel maintainers file. Silly me.

                • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
                  103·
                  10 天前

                  A trivial bad faith reading. Think about it for a few seconds more: what qualified their removal?

            • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
              218·
              10 天前

              Of course you are. This thread is about people getting kicked off the maintainer list for simply being Russian and y’all are bleating “good, fuck Russia”.

              • just_another_person@lemmy.world
                715·
                10 天前

                Yes. I am saying that the Russian people who were maintaining anything in the Linux kernel commits have a very real threat of not only being compromised to do ill, but also have their identity on the commit chain being taken over by state actors.

                What in the hell are you arguing for here?

      • Lysergid@lemmy.ml
        56·
        10 天前

        He just applied Russians’ favorite soviet era saying “those who is not with us is against us”

        • TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
          48·
          10 天前

          Who did that? And that is a cartoonish an embarrassing thing for you to say I’d a soviet saying, let alone a popular one.