Hello ladies (current and former) of Lemmy (current) - I’m curious how your experience of the male gaze has changed as you moved in and out of young-woman-hood.
How has your opinion of being seen changed through this process?
deleted by creator
He does sound like a tool.
I’m not sure what I meant either, I’ll just remove it. I’m sure I had a brilliant thought behind it at the time!
deleted by creator
I have heard of Male Gaze with capital letters, but I was asking more about y’alls experience noticing eyeballs on you rather than how THEY perceive you. Using words that have a more specific defined meaning is probably more evidence for “Pidgin needs to think before writing”.
I presume this is the video you meant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MTtYyZ1zd8
I never saw Birds of Prey because Suicide Squad was so bad! Maybe it deserves a watch. I do notice the usually unnecessary sexiness in movies.
I wanted to learn more about women’s perspective on this. Sometimes my “don’t be a dick” plan needs more detail, and being more aware of what kind of behaviour is problematic might steer me better. I’ve heard the phrase male gaze but I don’t think I fully understand what is meant by it, and I feel your question may point to and illuminate a kind of discrimination that I want to avoid.
As a man, here is my understanding, so take it with a grain of salt.
While men staring at women is a problem, it is not what is meant by “male gaze”. That term is usually used to describe the way societal norms regarding women were strongly formed by men and what they like. The way conservatives generally expect women to present themselves and behave is heavily influenced by the male gaze. To my understanding, the exact standards differ by culture, but usually its along the lines of being submissive and fitting some beauty standard.
If a person who is read as female (aka “looks like a woman”) does not adhere to those standards, they will face ramifications, because our society mostly has men calling the shots. On the flip side, people who are read as female, and try to please the male gaze while also genetically being lucky enough to fit the beauty standards, can benefit from it (see: beauty privilege).
Regarding your plan to not be a dick, I think if you just treat people as people, regardless of their appearance, you are (passively) working against the perpetuation of the male gaze. I think that would also mean you’re not discriminating anyone.
Apologies if I misunderstood your comment and you were not asking/looking for an explanation.
That was helpful, thanks. I’m very much looking for insight, explanation and experiences.
If I’ve grasped what you’re saying (and please re-steer me if not), the male gaze is a kind of societal expectation that women would present themselves in certain ways to walk the tightrope of some sort of impossible-to-attain universal male approval, and where women are harassed on the one hand for for not pleasing male eyes and on the other hand, harassed for pleasing male eyes - an obviously lose-lose situation. As such then, this male gaze would exist in the way some men behave towards women and in the head space this takes up in the minds of women who have been repeatedly hit with these expectations.
Yep, that is pretty much how I understand it as well
Thank you for being on the Internet.
Thank you too. It is very refreshing to have such a pleasant interaction on the internet.
If it’s helpful, I’m glad! I was just curious and it’s fun to hear real people’s perspectives.
What a dick. I love your descriptive reply - it’s so, so true.
If I broke down and you came to help me I wouldn’t care if you were wearing a full fursuit.
I’d be thanking you to no end.
I have always been “non-traditional” looking. When I was young and skinny I don’t think I was ugly but certainly not conventionally beautiful. Now that I’m older I am certifiably “meh”.
The expectation to look pretty (for men) is still there even if I don’t meet the criteria for their attention. I still feel the societal pressure, I still feel bad about my appearance when I’m not serving male gaze ideals. It doesn’t just go away even when you’re disqualified from personhood for being ugly.
I’m hoping becoming an old biddy will release me from requirements and I can feel free.
Interesting that you still internalize the pressure. Maybe that’s a result of how much women are guided to be objects of sexual interest from youth?
As a guy, I can dress as poorly as I want and not feel less manly because of it. I will still feel stigma about class and stuff, though.
I’ve definitely heard that being old is liberating! I hope I get there someday.
Well shit I didn’t realize this could be so sticky. I wish you feel free asap
I’m a 50-year-old lady, and just last week some dood pulled over his truck to ask me if I was single. They don’t go away, you’re just a LOT less interested.
I can believe that for sure! That seems like a dating method with a low success rate.
Just drive around and ask random women if they’re interested in a stranger in a truck. Can’t lose.
But honestly if I were single it would take me a hot minute to find someone new, but I don’t think I’d want it. Men are a LOT.
A lot of humble awesomeness, in my case. Obviously.
I guess the truck method is like swiping <whichever direction is positive> on EVERYONE in a dating app. It only has to work once to be a good method!
I’ve never online dated before. I’m too old for that shit. I can’t imagine how crazy it would be. Are there any older people on those apps?
No idea, I’ve never tried one. I’ve been married since before smartphones. There’s a lot of variety in dating apps I hear about. If there’s one just for farmers and one for Christian nationalists, there’s gotta be one for adults.
Definitely, but it’s mostly twenty to thirty somethings, some forties. My wife and I are nearly in our fifties and occasionally make a fake account to whatever service is big that year/decade to see what we’ve been missing. We don’t feel like we’re missing much.
A buddy of ours of similar age is a widower and, after many years, has decided to try dating again. He’s meeting women but has variable results. I can’t say he’s having better or worse dates than when meeting people in person, but he’s having a lot more of all the dates, so it’s like they’re more concentrated.
I’m oblivious and always have been. I assume every smile is a friendly smile and I’m ok chatting with almost anyone. I only really notice if someone says something creepy or touches me too much. My husband accuses me of flirting with everyone.
This is how you enjoy life. Make people happy being around you, and they do the same for you.
I’ve heard that from my wife too; I just like chatting with strangers!
deleted by creator
Thank you for commenting. Do you miss it, or are you glad to be rid of creeps?
Now that’s a hot take here lol
deleted by creator
I certainly don’t mean to be rude. Thank you for pointing it out, though.
Men looking at women are creeps? Guess im a creep. :)
We all look at people for many reasons including sexual interest. It’s creepy when someone feels your amorous intent, I think. At least when it’s from someone with whom the subject doesn’t perceive a romantic relationship.
Yes of course. But have you noticed how everyone assumes that men are staring and making women feel uncomfortable despite nothing like that was expressed?
I’ve also seen jokes about dicks that everyone seem to think is funny, but when someone mentions actual attraction, the thread goes nuts. :)
The top level comment was deleted by now, so I’m not sure about the context. But Theres a difference between looking and staring.
Nobody said staring. :)
You should be ashamed of yourself
Lol, it’s just not politically correct these days. :)
Human attraction is at the core of human existence and I think it’s silly to act like it doesn’t exist every day.
You can look. But you can’t be an ass about it. You can’t leer.
Do you have access to any healthcare services?
A good CNA can help you figure out how to manage hygiene as long as you have some degree of upper body mobility. I mean, obviously, an occupational therapist or physical therapist is going to be better, and be able to offer a wider range of options, but without a way to pay for those, it can be out of reach for self pay. But an hour or two of CNA time is usually within budgetary reach. Other pros can help too, but again, they’d be more expensive.
You can sometimes find a local disability support group, and the difficulty with tasks like bathing, brushing teeth, etc is a pretty common topic. You don’t automatically get trained advice, but you do get practical tips from people that may well be better.
I mean, sure, 248lbs isn’t exactly thin, especially since you never said height, but at my biggest I was 315 and could still walk.
There has to be more going on here…I’m so confused why being that weight would confine you so much. Yes, personal hygiene does get a bit more difficult. More hard to reach places…but scrub brushes on sticks exist.
Personal hygiene can suffer when you are deep in a depressive episode. Mobility might also be compromised due to a disability or chronic pain and not directly weight related.
Top level comment was deleted, but I was 220 at 5’ before I lost weight and I was still very mobile, hygienic, and wearing cute clothes. Maybe they deleted because they didn’t want to talk about what else was going on.
It was quite a personal comment, and it seemed likely to get only moreso. I don’t blame them for deleting it.
deleted by creator
I figured I’d get some responses like this! Thank you for sharing.
I’m waiting for invisible. I’m almost 40. I just want to do things without anyone noticing me, let alone staring, yelling, hitting on me etc. I just want to be an anonymous entity moving through the world, not a woman-that-men-want-to-fuck.
I’ve been that since I was 12.
Makes me think of “Unfuckable”.
I’ve lost weight (finally in the healthy range for my height) and I’ve noticed more guys look at me when I walk by than when I was overweight. I don’t mind and it doesn’t really affect me. I decided a long time ago that what people think about me is their own business and idgaf.
I’ve also got catcalled more while walking, which is not fun and does bother me.
Have you ever gotten the classic whistle? I feel like that’s just in movies.
I’ve gotten the whistle. Only when I was a teenager though. Seems the type of man who whistles doesn’t like adult women
Have you gotten the guy in a pickup pulling up to ask if you’re single like one of the other responders?
No, more like “Hey, baby!” and “Nice ass!” A couple of times they yelled, “Bitch!” or something similar after, which makes me feel a bit threatened so I watch for the car the rest of the walk, which is annoying and inconvenient.
I wonder if that stuff ever works and guys hear about a friend of a friend who got a date that way, or if they’re all just independantly shouting into the void.
I could almost imagine someone responding positively to “nice ass”, but “Bitch” is just obviously never gonna work. That’s some incel energy there.
I think it’s about power or a different mindset (as in, “they will take it as a compliment”). And the “Bitch” was only after I didn’t turn around to look at them when they yelled the “compliment”, I think. They didn’t get the response they wanted so they determined I was a bitch.
I try to do drive by compliments, but not while literally driving … Just stuff like “cool hat!” and walk off so they don’t need to respond or engage with me.
I would like to be told I have a nice ass, but that’s because it doesn’t happen (even though I think I deserve it). It sounds like being hit on often cheapens it.
I do drive-by compliments too, especially if someone is sporting a fandom I like. I think it’s different when it’s a stranger complimenting a body feature - it implies sexual attraction which can feel objectifying and, unfortunately in the world we live in, unsafe. I don’t know this person, I just know they felt comfortable enough to anonymously shout a comment about a sexual part of my body, so what else do they feel comfortable enough to do?
Gotcha. Yeah, I would never comment on a stranger’s body/face/smell. Even if I don’t mean anything by it, creepy is in the eye of the beholder.
I’m a trans woman, have been transitioning for 10 years. It’s really hit or miss whether or not people can clock me. I’ve had friends know me for two years without knowing I was trans.
Men ogle and catcall me frequently, it’s annoying as fuck since I’m not even straight. It’s flattering when queer women hit on me though. I’ve been both catcalled and misgendered within the same block. I also tend to have a strong social presence which is both a blessing and a curse.
Also, men cannot take no as an answer. I often pretend I have a boyfriend since creeps are more respectful of imaginary men than real women.
That’s a really interesting perspective, thank you. Do you remember noticing when you started being seen as a woman by strangers?
Probably around 2 years in or so. It’s not a light switch, it’s more like a dimmer.
I’m 56.
Mostly I think younger guys trust me and see me more as a safe authority than fuckable (mostly) so I can relax around them, not worried. But there are still catcalls and shit, I fully expect to be 90 and have someone yell “lookin’ spry, grandma!”. Don’t think that is actually about how you look, those guys are relentless.
My trajectory may be different from most, I was a very skinny tall girl in a world where that was most assuredly not seen as sexy, so I didn’t feel pretty as a young woman, nor did most guys see me as sexy. There were some creepy old guys into it but that sure didn’t make me feel sexy at all. Also my ex liked me ‘despite’ my lack of curves. Fast forward 25 years, we split and in the meantime, the world had changed, the smaller boobs and lean body held up and more guys my age were into my looks, it took some time to adjust but I actually feel more attractive and sexy in my mid 50s than I did in my 20s or 30s. Don’t look better in an absolute sense (if I could have been young now, I mean, with the wider beauty standards) but in relation to my peers, definitely better now.
That makes sense. I feel more attractive now than when I was in my 20s, too, though I still doubt the college girls would be interested even if I were.
Your ex, man. I would never say something like that to anyone. It’s the sort of thing that might stick with you.
It fluctuates because there are a few factors at play, two of them being my stigma and the condition itself. They might gaze at me for the visual appeal while looking down on me in every other sense of the word, they might treat me with kindness but not care about what they see because my condition turns them off, or anything in between. Typically, though, they aren’t attracted to me. Some level of stigma has always been with me since birth though, it’s not like my state of being which came later.
Thank you for responding, Leni. That’s interesting.
You’re welcome. How about you, do you have any experiences like you ask about?
Not really, I’m a cishet middle aged dude and I don’t get out much.
I was thinking about how men’s interactions with women are colored by their attractiveness, and I assume you can tell at least sometimes. I smiled at an old lady at the grocery store today and was thinking that she might sense that it was “only” a friendly smile, but she’s presumably gotten smiles and glances that had at least a little bit of sexual interest beneath them. Dunno, just made me curious!
It’s one of those things where I can sort of get an idea but never know for sure, because to try to place their reaction in my mind would be to assume it without having actually read their mind, even though the differences between how it looks when you’re gazing for one reason versus another is usually consistent. For example, the other day someone was staring at me, and I thought it was the gaze of the hots until they revealed they were just daydreaming about the fact we were matching clothes, so one never really knows.
That’s funny! I suppose you’re right; unless he’s drooling and doing AWOOGA eyes it could be something else.
The times I got the most cat calls and people in cars harassing me was when I was extremely, clearly, underaged. Now I’m much older and fatter and invisible. I fucking hate being looked upon by anyone though. Let me become data inside a small spikey robot ball.
I’m sorry to hear that. My wife was booted at and catcalled as she walked to school, so she has had a similar experience.
I could be happily be a robot, but if I could be anything I think I’d be a new world monkey like a Spider Monkey. Having a tail would be dope.
I remember the day I finally realized I was being left alone. It has been glorious. Best part of getting older. It’s so nice to simply exist in my own space.
I could almost imagine! Thank you for commenting.
Are you asking as a male or someone who’s transitioning out of young womanhood?
I’m a boring guy like from an insurance commercial, just curious what it’s like on the other side and especially in the way that experience changes! The categories in the title were the first I thought of for people who may have passed through or into a peak of sexual desirability. It’s probably fraught question, and I’m sure I’m phrasing it indelicately.
Are you wearing khakis?
Kakhi shorts and a polo, yes! May I interest you in saving on your insurance by bundling home and auto?
Sure. You just find a home in my price range, and a bank willing to loan money, and I’ll do the home insurance with you.
How does that change people’s responses?
I guess maybe less effort put into advice vs just explaining what they experience?
Pre transition I wasn’t subjected to it so, I only ever knew it as it was applied to other people. It was gross and exploitative but not in a way that I personally experienced. There was a bit of detachment from that, I didn’t properly recognize it for what it was because my own dysphoria and discomfort made me somewhat oblivious to it.
When I first transitioned the male gaze felt like some metric I had to compare myself to if I wanted to be accepted. I started to subtly invalidate myself by all the ways my body differed from what was expected of me as a woman. It became a source of constant self dismissal and a feeling that I didn’t live up to expectations of womanhood, and therefore wouldn’t be accepted as a woman.
After several years of hormones and then bottom surgery I started to gain confidence in myself and I started to notice a lot more the way men look at me. The experience has honestly sucked as much as it is validating. I know I look good, that I’m conventionally attractive. I’m uncomfortable in a lot of settings due to that. I’m good at hiding my discomfort and maintaining my confidence even when I’m being leered at. But nontheless it makes me feel gross a lot of the time. I’m a gay woman, so it also feels like a part of me is being consumed without my consent just by me passively existing somewhere. Like going to the grocery store and noticing the guy staring at you standing next to his wife. He should know the way him staring makes me feel but if he does know he doesnt care. The way people treat me is totally different too. People being genuinely very nice and happy to speak with me. It’s made me understand in a personal way not just how passing is a privilege but being seen as desirable by men is too. I’m still young so my experiences are still growing. I want to be a mom someday and I think a lot about how my children will be subjected to this too.
Thank you for sharing your experience! It’s very interesting how it changed as you’ve felt it from various angles.
I’m mid-30s be went through a weight fluctuation. I used to be very thin and honestly quite hot, though I didn’t realize it. I never really felt like I got much male attention. I also hated being perceived and pretty much avoided men, so that’s probably why. Then I gained weight (around 40 pounds) and did a lot of mental and emotional work and learned to live my body. I felt better and more beautiful in my bigger body than I ever did when I was young. I also had way more male attention. Maybe because my own confidence had grown. In the past 2 years, I lost the weight and at first got my “old” body go but then started working out a lot and have a new, different, strong body. Which, on top of the work I did when I was bigger, I love my body. I definitely notice eyes following me a lot, but have less approaches. Hopefully I’m intimidating.
Interesting! Thank you for sharing. You’ve been through my question both ways, I guess!
Self confidence plus dressing well can overcome a lot, IMHO. Doesn’t apply to me!
