God is basically a placeholder for something we don’t understand yet. It should have gone away when we understood how things like sun rises and such worked, but most humans can’t handle the thought that death is final. Exploiting peoples existential crises about death is a great way to manipulate the population for power and wealth.
While there’s no solid answer for what existed before the big bang and what caused it to happen, there’s no reason for God to be the answer.
At any rate, even if there was a higher level being that created the universe, to think they actually care about what humans do with their lives is just pure hubris.
God would be the being responsible for the creation of the universe, if that is the true origin of the universe. Maybe some sort of 12th dimension being (if string theory is true).
I definitely don’t think it’s some petulant, narcissistic child sitting in the sky judging us for using the free will they supposedly bestowed upon us.
It doesn’t look like you have an answer to this, but are still basing your argument on this point. Are you really sure that nothing existing is “easier” than vaguely gestures at everything.
Let’s flip the question around and look at it another way. If the state of existing is so easy why is there so much apparent discreteness? And if what would a universe look like with all possibilities actualized with infinite energy? An answered based on your actual beliefs would be appreciated, but if not, that’s okay too.
I’ll try to flip the question, but I don’t agree with a few points in your premise. The opposite of ‘nothing’ isn’t ‘everything’ or ‘infinite energy’, it’s ‘anything’, and it’s very easy to see that something exists. Even in the vacuum of space, we can still detect energy from particles and anti-particles spontaneously being created and destroyed. There’s something there, even when there’s “nothing” there. That’s one of the things that still blows my mind about our universe, and that’s also what I mean when I say that from what I can see, it’s impossible for nothing to exist, even in a square meter of empty space.
Your question of discreteness is a good one, but also something that science can never answer because science doesn’t answer ‘why’. It answers ‘how’. We can get closer to guessing the ‘why’ the more we test a subject, but any explanation to the ‘why’ is our just current best theory that makes the most sense and is always subject to change.
Now, if there was a universe with infinite energy, then it would have infinite mass. If it has infinite mass, then it would become a black hole. We can’t see inside black holes because their gravity won’t allow the fastest thing in the universe to escape, so if there were such a universe, we couldn’t tell what it was like unless we were already inside it. We might figure out something faster than light someday and be able to study black holes more, but until then, we know that we can’t know that.
And that’s one of the biggest frustrations with science that I hear from religious people. We have to get comfortable knowing that we can’t know something, and people have been too ingrained with the idea that if they CAN’T know something then it MUST be god. But to quote an annoying scientist I occasionally agree with, “Just because you don’t know how something works doesn’t mean you know how it works.” I.E. You can’t just substitute ‘god’ in anytime you don’t know the answer because I can always do the same with ‘The Flying Spaghetti Monster’.
I don’t know. Why is a supernatural deity being the cause the answer you jump to? Especially since it solves nothing, as the question then becomes, “Why does god exist?”
I think there’s a huge confusion. I didn’t say there is a supernatural diety. I don’t believe in the God most people believe in and reject. I’m more of a complicated panthiest. Basically universe and God are almost synonymous. To understand the fundamental truth of existence from inception to end one will understand all things as a God would. We could get there using a scientific approach or some other path, maybe, eventually.
Sounds like you’re a deist. But really, if it’s discovered and proven that some higher power created existence, that would then become part of scientific knowledge. The next step would be figuring out where the higher power came from.
Because if there was nothing then we wouldn’t be here to ask why. All the universes where someone is around to question things are universes where stuff exists.
Why do things exist? Who knows? I sure don’t. Being able to admit you don’t know everything is humbling, you should try it some time.
Something you don’t know, for example, is whether or not it would be easier for nothing to exist. How could you possibly know that? Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s literally impossible. Yet here you are pretending you know for a fact that it’s true.
It’s more humble to accept that neither science nor religion have a definitive explanation to creation, than it is to leverage a burden of proof argument against those who believe in a creator, when science doesn’t have an explanation or evidence either.
A true scientist would acknowledge that there is possibility of interference-based creation based on our current understanding of physics.
What created the matter? How was it set in motion?
when science doesn’t have an explanation or evidence either
The difference is that we’re willing to admit we don’t know, while the religious think they do. We don’t have a burden of proof here because we’re not claiming anything.
A true scientist would acknowledge that there is possibility of interference-based creation based on our current understanding of physics.
Most people do acknowledge that its possible. Its just very, very, very, (…) unlikely to be the case. Everything else we’ve ever proven to be true has been caused by natural causes. Why should it suddenly be different? I’m open to being proven wrong when the time comes, but in the meantime I will continue to ignore wild ideas that contradict everything we know and are brought forth without any evidence. That’s not arrogance.
Science has the burden of proving that two masses collided to create existence without breaking the laws of physics. What created that matter? What set it in motion?
I’m only saying the argument works both ways. I’m also very against dogma over science. I’m a scientific person who simply believes it’s equally possible that there was, and was not, interference-based creation of existence.
As far as we know, matter can’t be created or destroyed. Before asking “what created it” you have to demonstrate that it even CAN be created.
And “what set it in motion?” Have you ever seen anything NOT in motion? Everything is moving relative to everything else.
As far as we have observed, there is no such thing as “nothing” or “motionless.” To ask a question like how does something come from nothing, or how did things begin to move, you are assuming states that we have never observed to be possible.
Matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Both matter creation and spontaneous motion are against by the laws of physics.
The current theory of the perpetual expansion of the universe is that all objects are moving away from the universal center due to the Big Bang. It is supported by observations of directional movement and evidence of perpetual slowing toward universal entropy. That explains the motion we observe in all of existence. It does not explain the existence of two enormous masses prior to the Big Bang, nor what caused them to be in motion to collide in the first place.
I think you’re reading way too much into this. How many possible things could exist but dont? Is it more or less than what there is? You assume I believe in God, what if you’re wrong.
You basically described something we don’t know and then said if you don’t know them that’s where you’ll find god. Unless you know the answer to your original statement, which no one can know, than it’s safe to assume you believe in god. Whether you’ll admit it or not, you made the absolute statements to begin with.
I mean, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but it sure seems like you believe a god exists when you say something like that, no?
As for the rest of what you said… that’s irrelevant. The problem is that it could be (and IMO is) physically impossible for literally nothing to exist. We simply don’t know, as we don’t know what came before or caused the big bang. The concept of nothingness is a whole complicated philosophical debate. Saying “erm, things exists, therefore god” makes no sense.
Besides, god is ‘something’. You have the same problem regardless.
Many questioned what drives evolution when Charles Darwin introduced it. Nobody knows until 80 years later, DNA has finally been visualised, which confirmed and reinforced the theory of evolution.
Also, what do you mean “God”? Why do you assume there is only one “god”? It is funny that the ancients would say “gods” (Hindus and other poytheists still do so) but now with monotheistic proselytisation or forced conversion, half the world say “god”. So which god are you referring to? What if other gods are real and yours isn’t? Abrahamic practioners say like it is a checkmate when-- if you take science out of the debate-- there are other religions who say their deities are real, and their religious beliefs and claim of how the universe was made are correct and yours isn’t. I can’t remember the name of the medieval European philosopher but he also saw how religions contradict each other arrived to the same conclusion that religions must not be real; long before modern atheists even thought the same.
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God is basically a placeholder for something we don’t understand yet. It should have gone away when we understood how things like sun rises and such worked, but most humans can’t handle the thought that death is final. Exploiting peoples existential crises about death is a great way to manipulate the population for power and wealth.
While there’s no solid answer for what existed before the big bang and what caused it to happen, there’s no reason for God to be the answer.
At any rate, even if there was a higher level being that created the universe, to think they actually care about what humans do with their lives is just pure hubris.
Wait? What is your definition of God?
God would be the being responsible for the creation of the universe, if that is the true origin of the universe. Maybe some sort of 12th dimension being (if string theory is true).
I definitely don’t think it’s some petulant, narcissistic child sitting in the sky judging us for using the free will they supposedly bestowed upon us.
Why is it easier for nothing to exist? As far as I can see, it’s impossible for nothing to exist.
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It doesn’t look like you have an answer to this, but are still basing your argument on this point. Are you really sure that nothing existing is “easier” than vaguely gestures at everything.
Let’s flip the question around and look at it another way. If the state of existing is so easy why is there so much apparent discreteness? And if what would a universe look like with all possibilities actualized with infinite energy? An answered based on your actual beliefs would be appreciated, but if not, that’s okay too.
I’ll try to flip the question, but I don’t agree with a few points in your premise. The opposite of ‘nothing’ isn’t ‘everything’ or ‘infinite energy’, it’s ‘anything’, and it’s very easy to see that something exists. Even in the vacuum of space, we can still detect energy from particles and anti-particles spontaneously being created and destroyed. There’s something there, even when there’s “nothing” there. That’s one of the things that still blows my mind about our universe, and that’s also what I mean when I say that from what I can see, it’s impossible for nothing to exist, even in a square meter of empty space.
Your question of discreteness is a good one, but also something that science can never answer because science doesn’t answer ‘why’. It answers ‘how’. We can get closer to guessing the ‘why’ the more we test a subject, but any explanation to the ‘why’ is our just current best theory that makes the most sense and is always subject to change.
Now, if there was a universe with infinite energy, then it would have infinite mass. If it has infinite mass, then it would become a black hole. We can’t see inside black holes because their gravity won’t allow the fastest thing in the universe to escape, so if there were such a universe, we couldn’t tell what it was like unless we were already inside it. We might figure out something faster than light someday and be able to study black holes more, but until then, we know that we can’t know that.
And that’s one of the biggest frustrations with science that I hear from religious people. We have to get comfortable knowing that we can’t know something, and people have been too ingrained with the idea that if they CAN’T know something then it MUST be god. But to quote an annoying scientist I occasionally agree with, “Just because you don’t know how something works doesn’t mean you know how it works.” I.E. You can’t just substitute ‘god’ in anytime you don’t know the answer because I can always do the same with ‘The Flying Spaghetti Monster’.
I don’t know. Why is a supernatural deity being the cause the answer you jump to? Especially since it solves nothing, as the question then becomes, “Why does god exist?”
I think there’s a huge confusion. I didn’t say there is a supernatural diety. I don’t believe in the God most people believe in and reject. I’m more of a complicated panthiest. Basically universe and God are almost synonymous. To understand the fundamental truth of existence from inception to end one will understand all things as a God would. We could get there using a scientific approach or some other path, maybe, eventually.
Sounds like you’re a deist. But really, if it’s discovered and proven that some higher power created existence, that would then become part of scientific knowledge. The next step would be figuring out where the higher power came from.
Makes sense. I wonder if there is a true start to every everything, if there is a meta-universe, that is.
I don’t know, but this is an interesting read.
A long but interesting read!
Because if there was nothing then we wouldn’t be here to ask why. All the universes where someone is around to question things are universes where stuff exists.
Why do things exist? Who knows? I sure don’t. Being able to admit you don’t know everything is humbling, you should try it some time.
Something you don’t know, for example, is whether or not it would be easier for nothing to exist. How could you possibly know that? Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s literally impossible. Yet here you are pretending you know for a fact that it’s true.
Enjoy your god of the gaps, though.
It’s more humble to accept that neither science nor religion have a definitive explanation to creation, than it is to leverage a burden of proof argument against those who believe in a creator, when science doesn’t have an explanation or evidence either.
A true scientist would acknowledge that there is possibility of interference-based creation based on our current understanding of physics.
What created the matter? How was it set in motion?
Arrogance is the enemy of science.
The difference is that we’re willing to admit we don’t know, while the religious think they do. We don’t have a burden of proof here because we’re not claiming anything.
Most people do acknowledge that its possible. Its just very, very, very, (…) unlikely to be the case. Everything else we’ve ever proven to be true has been caused by natural causes. Why should it suddenly be different? I’m open to being proven wrong when the time comes, but in the meantime I will continue to ignore wild ideas that contradict everything we know and are brought forth without any evidence. That’s not arrogance.
Science has the burden of proving that two masses collided to create existence without breaking the laws of physics. What created that matter? What set it in motion?
I’m only saying the argument works both ways. I’m also very against dogma over science. I’m a scientific person who simply believes it’s equally possible that there was, and was not, interference-based creation of existence.
You’re begging the question(s).
As far as we know, matter can’t be created or destroyed. Before asking “what created it” you have to demonstrate that it even CAN be created.
And “what set it in motion?” Have you ever seen anything NOT in motion? Everything is moving relative to everything else.
As far as we have observed, there is no such thing as “nothing” or “motionless.” To ask a question like how does something come from nothing, or how did things begin to move, you are assuming states that we have never observed to be possible.
Matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Both matter creation and spontaneous motion are against by the laws of physics.
The current theory of the perpetual expansion of the universe is that all objects are moving away from the universal center due to the Big Bang. It is supported by observations of directional movement and evidence of perpetual slowing toward universal entropy. That explains the motion we observe in all of existence. It does not explain the existence of two enormous masses prior to the Big Bang, nor what caused them to be in motion to collide in the first place.
I think you’re reading way too much into this. How many possible things could exist but dont? Is it more or less than what there is? You assume I believe in God, what if you’re wrong.
You basically described something we don’t know and then said if you don’t know them that’s where you’ll find god. Unless you know the answer to your original statement, which no one can know, than it’s safe to assume you believe in god. Whether you’ll admit it or not, you made the absolute statements to begin with.
I mean, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but it sure seems like you believe a god exists when you say something like that, no?
As for the rest of what you said… that’s irrelevant. The problem is that it could be (and IMO is) physically impossible for literally nothing to exist. We simply don’t know, as we don’t know what came before or caused the big bang. The concept of nothingness is a whole complicated philosophical debate. Saying “erm, things exists, therefore god” makes no sense.
Besides, god is ‘something’. You have the same problem regardless.
This person gets it: https://lemmy.world/comment/10602199
Many questioned what drives evolution when Charles Darwin introduced it. Nobody knows until 80 years later, DNA has finally been visualised, which confirmed and reinforced the theory of evolution.
Also, what do you mean “God”? Why do you assume there is only one “god”? It is funny that the ancients would say “gods” (Hindus and other poytheists still do so) but now with monotheistic proselytisation or forced conversion, half the world say “god”. So which god are you referring to? What if other gods are real and yours isn’t? Abrahamic practioners say like it is a checkmate when-- if you take science out of the debate-- there are other religions who say their deities are real, and their religious beliefs and claim of how the universe was made are correct and yours isn’t. I can’t remember the name of the medieval European philosopher but he also saw how religions contradict each other arrived to the same conclusion that religions must not be real; long before modern atheists even thought the same.