I WFH, every year one of the goals that the rest of the team decides is that it’s “so great” to see each other in person. The past few years haven’t worked out but one did. I spent hours in a couple of airports, the huge expense for the company, I spent days away from my family, and for what? So you could look me in my same face you would see if we turned cameras on every once in a while? My husband says I’m being weird, but I legitimately want to know, what is the benefit? I hate being there and have to play nice so you can…look me even closer in the face?
I’m actually shocked to find how many people agree with the OPs sentiment, but maybe there’s something about the demographics of who’s using a FOSS Reddit alternative or something. I’m not saying everyone is wrong or has something wrong with them or whatever, but I entirely agree with people finding this valuable, so maybe I can answer the OPs question here.
I’ve been working remotely long since before the pandemic. I’ve worked remotely for multiple companies and in different environments. I am extremely introverted and arguably anti social. I tend to want to hang out with many of my friends online over in person. But that doesn’t mean I think there’s no advantage at all. To be honest, when I first started remote work, I thought the in person thing was total bullshit. After a few meetings my opinions drastically changed.
I’ve pushed (with other employees, of course) to get remote employees flown in at least a few times a year at multiple companies. There are vastly different social dynamics in person than over video. Honestly, I don’t understand how people feel otherwise, especially if they’ve experienced it. I’ve worked with many remote employees over the years and asked about this, and most people have agreed with me. Many of these people are also introverted.
I think one of the big things here is people harping on the “face” thing. Humans communicate in large part through body language - it’s not just faces. There’s also a lot of communication in microexpressions that aren’t always captured by compressed, badly lit video. So much of communication just isn’t captured in video.
Secondly, in my experience, online meetings are extremely transactional. You meet at the scheduled time, you talk about the thing, then you close the meeting and move on. In person, people slowly mosy over to meetings. And after the meeting ends, they tend to hang around a bit and chat. When you’re working in an office, you tend to grab lunch with people. Or bump into them by the kitchen. There’s a TON more socializing happening in person where you actually bump into other people and talk them as people and not just cogs in the machine to get your work done.
I find in person interactions drastically change my relationships with people. Some people come off entirely different online and it’s not until meeting them in person that I really feel like I know them. And then I understand their issues and blockers or miscommunications better and feel more understanding of their experiences.
Maybe things are different if you work jobs with less interdepencies or are more solo. I’ve always worked jobs that take a lot of cooperation between multiple different people in different roles. And those relationships are just way more functional with people I’ve met and have a real relationship with. And that comes from things that just don’t happen online.
Im honestly really curious how anyone could feel differently. The other comments just seem mad at being required to and stating the same stuff happens online, but it just doesn’t. I do wonder if maybe it has to do with being younger and entering the workplace more online or something. But I’ve worked with hundreds of remote employees and never heard a single one say the in person stuff to be useless. And I’ve heard many say exactly the opposite.
I think you’re missing the point a wee bit. No one (introverted or otherwise) is arguing against in-person socialising in general. They are arguing against forced in-person socialising with co-workers.
online meetings are extremely transactional
Exactly. You know what else is transactional? Jobs. The employer and employee exchange work for currency. Employees don’t owe their employer any meaningful relationships with their co-workers. I’m sure that means less efficient business. I also don’t give a flying fuck.
In your intro paragraph you say meetings. I think people who still think of meetings as being a worthwhile way to spend company time probably are demographically preoccupied with the alleged value of “in person”.
Are you a manager by any chance?
Totally agree. I’m on restricted duties at the moment so meet all of my clients on teams. I hate it. The audio is terrible so one or both of us is always mishearing, my desk is in front of a window so I have to keep my curtains closed for them to see me. I don’t get to build the same rapport with them and their responses to my questions are more stilted because of it. A large part of my job is judging body language and reading non-verbal cues, which is next to impossible on teams.
And on monday, my computer decided to do a mandatory, 3 hour update, so I missed an appointment and couldn’t access the client’s number to apologise or explain. So I had to text a colleague to run over to the client’s office let them know I wasn’t going to make it
Further to that, I have found that in-person training sessions are much more effective than training over Teams/Zoom/Skype.
Not specifically because you are in the room with the instructor, but rather because you are in the room with the other students.
The opportunity to chat casually with the others during breaks is often where much of the learning and deepening of understanding happens. You can learn about their different approaches to the same problems you have. You can discover that you share confusion about something the instructor had briefly touched on , which can lead to a deeper discussion in class.(far too often during online training nobody asks what they assume is not a common question)
You’re correct in that it’s a higher quality of getting to know people in person.
However, I don’t want to get to know anyone at my work because I hate the place and I can’t create a honest relationship with my coworkers because of that, if I’d be honest I’d likely be reported or whatever.
I want to spend more time with people I do care about, not more time with people I don’t care at all about.
Why wouldn’t you be able to create relationships with your colleagues just because you hate your workplace? The worst places I’ve worked at, have had the absolute strongest relationships between the people working there. Because it’s basically been a necessity to survive the workday.
Your colleagues might hate it as much as you do. That can be something to find comfort in. And you’ll obviously never care about someone you don’t know. Perhaps you might actually start caring about a colleague or two, if you do get to know them.
Sliding off topic here, but I would seriously suggest you change jobs. Spending half of your waking time in an environment you hate is one way to die early. Life’s way too short for that!
I find that a lot of getting to know your coworkers as individuals, and not simply “the person in charge of that account” depends on face to face communication.
When I’m working remotely, the moment a meeting ends, I’m outta there.
Pretty much the only IMs I send are strictly work related - there’s not much water cooler talk, not much griping, because it’s all recorded (or can be) when working remotely.
The extraverts had the tables turned on them in 2020 and have been itchy for a captive audience ever since. It’s a drug fix for these people, nothing more. I’ve skipped every cross country in-person team building gibberish since 2020 and will continue to do so.
I like how indulging extrovertism is a drug fix, but indulging introvertism is just normal. Even though we’re scientifically social animals…
Introverts: I don’t mind RTO as long as it’s on an “at will” basis
Extroverts: I want everyone to RTO
See how indulging one or the other isn’t the same?
The problem is that some extroverts try to push their desire for face-to-face engagement onto others while trying to make introverts feel bad or ostracized for not wanting to. Obviously there are sane, reasonable people on both sides. Unfortunately, those that make the rules in the USA are typically neither sane nor reasonable.
American work culture has always heavily favored extraverts to begin with. I feel really resentful because extraverts finally got a small taste of what it means to be forced to adjust to a workplace they’re uncomfortable with, and now they act like we all need to go into the office again to keep their needs met.
There’s never been any real consideration of introverts when it comes to office culture, other than to ridicule or minimize us when we express our needs. And btw I work a highly social job and interact with people all day long. I’m expected to adjust but extraverts aren’t.
This is like calling for straight pride month. Society is built for extroverts, and introverts have always had to put extroverts’ needs first. Now that introverts can work in a comfortable environment, suddenly, it’s an issue.
When I was in high school, I had a girl tell me I was her favorite person to work with, and for one simple reason: if she wanted to talk, I’d talk to her; and if she didn’t, I wouldn’t try to force her into a conversation.
It’s work, not a social call.
We are talking about a get together once or twice a year here. That is very much something that is not only beneficial for extroverts, but also most introverts. The extremities between these often get a bit absurd when discussing. Studies show the happiness level of introverts increasing after social gatherings as well.
Not saying it should happen daily or even weekly. But yearly? That should not be a problem for anyone.
Some people need to be around others, some people hate it, some people are indifferent. Everyone is different.
I find social interactions very draining. While others find being isolated draining.
I think we are likely in the minority but that doesn’t make us weird. No one is normal.
Social interactions are totally draining for me, but I cannot understand a person until I had a face to face communication with them.
I’ve worked 2 jobs for 22 years, my side-gig being the 22-year one while my day-job moves about.
Working remotely has allowed me to change addresses, cities, regions, coasts, countries, and time zones many times in those 22 years. Had there been enough work in the side gig, I would have been happy to make it my primary job; but I say that as I know the day job has taught me techniques and tools I would maybe never have been able to bring to the side gig without that incentive.
Seeing people in the flesh is neat and keen and fetch, or whatever. But I’ll reserve that for my friends.
When it comes down to it, I have the power to require that a job pay me for every moment I do things on their behalf; and that includes commuting. I don’t want to do it, and they don’t want to pay me to do it, so I don’t.
I’m in the same boat as you. It’s a waste of time for me, but others seem to need it.
It’s worth noting I have autism though. So social interactions don’t do much for me.
Because generally social interaction is easier and better face to face. You can read people’s facial cues better, have true eye contact, better hear the subtitles of voice and mood. People feel more connected with someone if they have met them face to face.
Alternatively, communication via email and video call can be hard and easily misread. People can misread emails as aggressive or be aggressive and not realise the impact. Communication on a video call, especially in big groups, can be difficult and impersonal.
Meeting up occasionally is probably seen as good a way to keep your team coherent and friendly. You’re more likely to be aware of the other person’s feelings if it’s someone you’ve socialised and spent time with. It’s easier to be empathetic and kind if you know that person in the flesh rather than just a name on an email or a random face on a video call. You’re more likely to make allowances for other people if you know about them and their circumstances.
When working remotely how many times do you have social calls and chats with your colleagues? It’s an important element of being in a long term team.
I work in a hospital in a busy face to face job but some colleagues I barely see as we have different weekly rosters. So I only interact with them via email or video call; despite being in the same building a lot of the time. We make the time once a month to have a team meeting and social catch up as it’s good for everyone and the team. It’s similar to what you’re doing once a year across a country.
You may not see the value in it but it may be worth noting other people may see the value in getting to know you and understand you. For example if that socialisation isn’t something that comes natural to you, your team members seeing you and getting to know you will also help them adjust to work better with you. It is very much a 2 way thing.
I got to say, this is only true if interaction is actually better in person. For me I’m not sure that is the case. I also do not participate in all social calls that my company set up, but I am always available for 1v1 video calls with my colleagues.
I was at the office 3 times last year and that is plenty enough for me and my team.
Pretty ableist to assume everyone wants that though. Like I’m autistic and I do way better with video calls and emails than in person.
I think everyone just pretends to be honest. They’re a few fucking weirdos who enjoy waiting 5 extra hours for their delayed flight and having to rent a car to drive to some conference that could have been conducted virtually and all that other bullshit, but I’m fairly confident that most people would prefer NOT to do that and to simply wfh. Webcams are fine with me. I have friends. I have a wife. I have a family. I don’t need to see work people in real life. It literally adds zero benefit to my life. Also a lot of people suffer from chronic pain like back problems. Commutting and flying and sitting 8 hours a day in some piece of shit ergo chair from 1988 is literally torture for them. Work culture has no sympathy for disabled people. They can go get fucked. Work from home for life all you motherfuckers.
I’m the same way. I’m not anti-social, just picky with how I spend my time and with whom. I guess it’s more of a reflection on my job, but work people ain’t it – meaning I wouldn’t be friends with most of them outside of work. As I get older, I find that I increasingly put myself first and have less tolerance for bullshit lol.
look me in my same face you would see if we turned cameras on every once in a while?
Not the same as interpersonal interaction, misses much of the communication we evolved to express and understand.
OTOH, I’ve had a few Zoom-only relationships where we’re pretty tight, but that’s rare.
LOL, one of those is my Zoom rep. We email occasionally, trade pics and jokes. Every few months we Zoom and shoot the bullshit about our lives. She gets me the skinny on upcoming stuff, where my account’s at, what I might need or not need. Because we’re tight like that, she jumps when I need a thing, and in turn, I read all her correspondence carefully.
Another is a coworker, nearly my best friend at the company. When we finally met in person at a team meeting, we were tight. Boss was like, “Had you guys met before today?!”
Again, pretty rare relationships. Know who I’m really close to? The guy who lives here who I used to work in the office with. Man came to my wedding. None of those remote people did. When he needs my help, I jump.
And if anyone wants to poo-poo interpersonal work relationships, I will ask that person what they think of long-distance relationships. The conventional wisdom is that they don’t work out. (Yes, I know those are different. But how different and why? Think on that.)
Great post and question! Much food for thought as we navigate this new world.
Anyway, I had some thoughts earlier tonight, both pro and con.
I’m sure you have friends outside of work right?
That’s the part I never understand about people who connect working in office and with the fun of seeing others is person.
Why are you so willing to put up with commuting, office quality furniture, public restroom facilities, sick people who realllllly should have leverage optional work from home days or just regular old sick time… When you could just have more time for friends outside of the workplace.
I see my friends on weekends or they come over and we have game nights spending quality time with each other rather than infrequent unplanned interactions when we both should be doing something else.
My personal life friends are the people I “jump” for. Not coworkers. Having to “jump” for a coworker is and should be an inconvenience in the workplace because it means a failure of planning occurred somewhere. You can still have friendly camaraderie in the face of inconvenient circumstances but I don’t think you need to have some deep relationship to help out a colleague. That comes with the job to some extent.
When I’ve become friends with people from work, I invite them into my entirely separate personal life and in fact that is the case for one of my closest friends.
I just feel like If you wanna hang out with people from the office invite them to something outside of the office. The whole captive audience thing is such a demoralizing foundation to start a friendship with.
Some people really like in-person socialization. There’s something lost in the webcam only meeting. I’m glad you adapted well to the circumstances of the pandemic, but not everyone faired so well. I can tell ya I went a lil bonkers not being able to see people in person.
How you felt, going bonkers, is roughly how many introverts feel being around people. So, the three years that introverts felt good in the history of… forever, many of us would like to keep that. I just ask that extroverts respect how shitty the workforce is especially for introverts and maybe try to get their social needs met in their personal life and not demand that work time also fit only their needs. At the expense of others.
As an introvert, as much as I feel weird aroind people, I feel even weirder video chatting with people I’ve never met in person. In that situation, I have no idea how to read people and the expectations are way harder to try to meet. This makes meetings even worse until I meet them.
While I agree that forced in person work daily is insane, the OP is complaining about meeting people in person once after many years, which feels equally as ridiculous. IMO even for widely dispersed teams, meeting a few times a year seems ideal.
Some people do not care about reading people or meeting expectations of people at work. They just want to do whatever is strictly necessary to get some money to live, and then get away from the whole thing.
They may not care, but reading people and meeting expectations of your colleagues is pretty much a bare minimum level of functioning for most professional positions.
I’m a massive introvert and would love to not have to rely on those social aspects of work, but they undeniably make me more effective at my job and make life easier in the long run. It’s no different than physical exercise or any of the million other things in life that might be a bit unpleasant but are ultimately good for you.
Well… no
As long as you don’t get fired, there’s no need to do any of these things, if you literally don’t care what happens at your job, then there’s no need to be effective or anything like that. You don’t need to be liked, you don’t need to care what your coworkers think, you just need to do enough work that it’s useful to employ you.
You’re not being weird. Some people like face to face, some don’t. Not everybody’s the same and to claim that would be naive. Unfortunately, there are more people who enjoy face to face than not, and most of them work in management: management is interacting with people --> you have to like interacting with people to be at least a passable manager --> the chances are much higher you enjoy doing that face to face --> management makes decisions --> face to face is valued.
Same goes for salary: management is there to delegate work --> they are disconnected with the day to day of workers because they don’t do their work --> management sees workers as less qualified than themselves --> logically never would pay those “less qualified” same or more than themselves. Management makes decisions so guess who gets paid more…
It’s just how things shake out. If workers become management, they too forget how things are and slip into the same pattern observed above. It’s just unfortunate how the human brain works.
