Confronted with the likelihood that we cannot achieve climate goals, confront socioeconomic inequality, and ultimately build a better world without significant personal sacrifice: How much are you personally capable and willing to lose? I mean this in the most earnest way possible. Acknowledging the likely possibility of working for an unethical organization while simultaneously supporting family who rely on you financially. Do you believe the amount we can and will bear aligns with the amount we must bear?
The first major issue is “How do I know it will work? How do I know the sacrifice won’t be in vain?”
Even if I just up commit suicide, cutting my carbon emissions to zero, private planes will still fly, we’ll still ship plastic trinkets across the pacific, still destroy habitat, etc.
Its defeatist, but unless we get the rich on board, shit sucks.
Well, I’ve heard people say that rich people are pretty delicious, so that could be an alternate plan…
I would sacrifice my left arm if I thought it would prevent a climate catastrophe. But it won’t. Literally nothing I can give will improve any of the problems you listed.
What should I be willing to sacrifice? Hamburgers? My personal car? Money? My kid’s college fund? Give me an outcome, and I’ll tell you if it’s worth it.
Ya, I was going to “offer” much more than my left arm. But it wouldn’t do anything. The changes need to be much more systemic(?) than that.
I wouldn’t give up cheeseburgers, though. But if I only had them once a year, I’d probably survive.
If you already knew the outcome, it wouldn’t be much of a sacrifice would it. Sometimes we need to do something because it’s the right thing to do, not because it guarantees success.
The only people who need to sacrifice anything and could solve all of our climate and economic problems by doing so are the billionaires hoarding their wealth and making things worse for everyone else so that they can become even more unfathomably rich every fiscal quarter.
There is nothing that the average person can give up that will do anything to improve things, besides our time, security, safety and potentially our freedom to go out and protest. We use disposable plastic products with wasteful packaging because that’s what companies offer us. And even if you can afford to buy products that are more sustainable, you’re still not putting a dent in the problem and are just funneling even more money to the rich so you can feel better about yourself.
We could have all of our modern conveniences and more while also protecting the planet and treating everyone fairly if it weren’t for the absolute evil of billionaires.
Killing a billionaire would reduce carbon emissions more than anything else I could personally do, so let’s start there and see how it goes. We can talk about me giving things up when those efforts won’t be undone by some asshole flying to Chamonix for the weekend or whatever those fucks are doing.
Yeah the old lie that we are all in it together and should try our best was, yeah, a lie, and some just took all our efforts.
There shouldn’t be billionaires, it’s a morally wrong concept. Money is not meant for hoarding.
We could just confiscate everything over 100 millions and they’d probably wouldn’t even notice. An upper limit of 10 millions seems fair, until no one starves on the planet, have access to health care, education.
And no heritages. Get your money as everybody else.
An upper limit of 10 millions seems fair, until no one starves on the planet, have access to health care, education.
I actually really like this idea. They all seem to have some sort of God complex, so let’s put them to the test. You provide clean drinking water to everyone, you unlock another 50 Mil to your cap. Feed the world, you unlock more to your cap. You get the idea.
I’d additionally like to propose a change to corporate tax code. Any full-time employees at your company that are on food stamps or other financial hardship support programs have 2x the cost that the government pays for those benefits added directly to the company’s overall tax bill as a final adjustment. The adjustments will not be deferrable or offset by any other portion of tax code. If your company cannot pay those adjustments, your company now belongs to the government.
I am very fucking sick of companies socializing their losses to the rest of the country and keeping all the profit for themselves.
Also no wage gap bigger than ten times (including bonuses, shares etc).
So are you willing to murder a billionaire and face the consequnces?
I’ll sacrifice enough of my time to help build the guillotines we’ll need to deal with the root cause of these problems.
In case it’s not apparent already none of these problems are things that can be solved by personal sacrifices of average individual citizens. We need sweeping government and economic reforms if we’re going to do anything except kick the can down the road for another generation or three while the wealthy continue to loot the planet for their own benefit. If anyone needs to make sacrifices right now it’s the 0.01% sitting on top of enough money and influence to solve all of these problems.
We can do it as an arts and crafts project for our YouTube channels
I’ll sacrifice enough of my time to help build the guillotines we’ll need to deal with the root cause of these problems.
Billions of guillotines??
I do not want to know your dreams at night…
Nothing, I’m only making a better world if I can make my own life better at the same time. I do live an extreme frugal existence and avoid working for any unethical organization, but it’s not a sacrifice.
What we can “bear” is the wrong question for a couple reasons:
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Consumer luxuries don’t actually make for a better life.
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Altruistic scheming isn’t anyone’s actual motivation for doing things.
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“sacrifice” is irrational bargaining; reality doesn’t care whether you’ve made yourself enough of a martyr, and people who want to be martyrs don’t care if what they’re sacrificing actually makes much of a difference.
An effective solution will involve changes we can be happy about and a lifestyle that is actually better than what we have now. Commutes and lives spent stressing over money are a shit trade for what people get from it anyway, it won’t be hard to do better with less.
Consumer luxuries don’t actually make for a better life.
The fundamental luxuries do.
Humans spend a third of their life asleep. A good mattress makes a big difference in the quality of sleep, but it being a Cali King sure isn’t going to change much.
Modern life requires a high degree of physical mobility. Public transportation (Europe, etc) and cars allow us to cover distances in hours that would have taken days even a century and a half ago. A decent-quality vehicle can make a big difference in the reliability of said transportation and our ability to get around, but it being a Mercedes or a Bentley sure isn’t going to change much.
And the list could easily run to hundreds of examples, if not thousands.
We live in a world where most any first-world consumer item is a luxury compared to the global poor, or pretty much anything comparable from a century and a half ago.
What doesn’t have much of a positive impact, however, is the delta between an affordable item and a high-end item that costs many multiples more. People can and should aim for those “luxuries” that don’t yet tip over into deminishing returns, as opposed to those luxuries that are excessive purely for the purpose of producing excessive displays of wealth.
Like vehicles - both of mine (sedan, utility pickup) are approaching a quarter century of age. Could I afford brand-new vehicles? Sure. But why would I waste my money and planetary resources like that? The ones I have still work just fine with only basic maintenance, and are perfectly adequate in getting me (and cargo) from point A to point B. I have absolutely no ego that demands newer or fancier.
Modern life requires a high degree of physical mobility
It doesn’t have to be that way, and I’m not convinced it’s strictly better that way.
We live in a world where most any first-world consumer item is a luxury compared to the global poor
Idk about that, even people without electricity or running water can get a cheap cell phone and solar charger now.
What doesn’t have much of a positive impact, however, is the delta between an affordable item and a high-end item that costs many multiples more. People can and should aim for those “luxuries” that don’t yet tip over into deminishing returns
Definitely. No need to be giving up things like regular bathing and functional cooking utensils that make a big difference for little expense.
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I think there’s a fundamental problem with the question that goes to the heart of the climate crisis and which makes a significant contribution to why I think we will not solve it.
There’s two versions of this question. The first is the one you asked - how much are individuals and families willing to give up in order to make the climate problem go away (whatever that means at this point). The second is “If you knew with 100% accuracy that by you going vegan (or ditching your car or installing solar or composting…), that the climate crisis would definitely be solved, would you do it?
Let’s pretend that I don’t want to go vegan. I eat Big Macs every night. Porterhouse steaks every weekend. I drive an F-350 to the ice cream store down the block. All of that. Let’s say I love those things. If I personally give them up, it will make no difference if we don’t reorganize the entire global economy. You might convince me to vote for politicians who would pass laws to make that happen, but you’d have a harder time selling me on sacrificing something I see as a core benefit for zero gain. It’s the difference between “How much would you give to get a homeless person off the streets and a new start” and “How much would you give a homeless person if you knew they were just going to set the cash on fire” if you see where I’m going with that.
We are humans. We are cooperators. That’s how we got where we are. Unfortunately there’s also other dynamics in play as well. I honestly have no idea how far back we’d need to rewind the tape in order to have a chance at a better outcome. I do think any progress we can make is good. This just feels like a boulder rolling towards your house kind of thing where all you can do is watch.
pretty much nothing. as an apprentice living off of not even minimum wage, i cannot afford any more price increases.
i am also a car enthusiast, and i want to keep the cobustion engine around (hydrogen ICE comes to mind). i would also like to keep the unlimited speed on the Autobahn, even if it would slightly improve efficiency in terms of fuel consumption and traffic accidents to implement a speed limit.
i strongly oppose the enshittification of every online service and think these datacenters used purely for processing collected data should not exist. they are being operated with coal energy in germany, which is just stupid. (from a quick google, they’re using 18 Billion Watts)
Essential online services and infrastructure should be FOSS-based honestly. i NEED a google account to use public transport.
also fuck public transport. i have a 49€ ticket and cannot rely on it. we once had a 2-Month period where everyone had to use public transport because the schoool is located in the middle of the city. no one was ever on time these entire 2 months. did i mention that driving to work is 3 times faster, and i get to sit in a very comfortable heated seat the entire time?
Calm. Kindness. Kinship. Love. I’ve given up all chance at inner peace. I’ve made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there’s only one conclusion, I’m damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they’ve set me on a path from which there is no escape. I yearned to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my sacrifice? I’m condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else’s future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I’ll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything!
Every day I look at the shit happening around us and I find myself getting closer and closer to Luthen Rael’s state of mind.
And here’s the relevant clip, for those who haven’t seen it.
THE QUESTION in so many ways IMO. But also, for me at least, it misses the point.
For me, so much is about the social. Like, I would have a hard time sacrificing a lot to save humanity from the climate crisis if I knew humanity wouldn’t know that they were saved (they don’t have to know it was me) but just figured the climate problem simply disappeared without learning to manage their problems.
Otherwise, personally, the basic sacrifice that is a no-brainer is to lead a simple, unassuming and arguably (from a materialistic standpoint) boring life. Regarding the climate crisis I’d say I’ve done that most of my life, which I don’t say with pride honestly as it’s about the only thing I’ve done.
Beyond that, if there’s some social buy-in from many to the relevant values etc, I think I’d certainly be willing to risk or end my life for the greater good.
I know my time here is fucked, but I’ll do whatever I can to build momentum for future generations.
As a high school graduate with no higher education and social issues, my options are limited… but I do what I can, try to educate myself on current issues, and spread as much positivity as I can muster.
I would not miss red meat if it became unavailable tomorrow
Not that much if I’m being completely honest. I’ve got bills to pay so I’m going to keep driving my truck to work, consuming stuff and buying meat. I’m more than happy to take part in the collective effort however so when the government sets new laws and regulations to fight climate change I just go with it even if it inconveniences me. Up to a point obviously. I just don’t think that my actions as an individual makes any real difference. I’m not going to live more sub-optimal life than what I’m already living only so that I can feel good about being on the moral highground despite knowing it made no difference. I applaud everyone who does but that’s just not me.
I’ve given up huge piles of cash by choosing to not work for megacorps.
It’s worth it to me.
Confronted with the likelihood that we cannot achieve climate goals.
The current trend line sucks, but we’ve seen plenty of times in history what the ultra rich ignoring the plight of everyone else looks like. Someone please pass the “not with them” list to me to sign when it’s time to chop their heads off.
I wish I was joking, but I’m not. Seriously. I’m not with them. I would like to keep my head while we adjust course abruptly.
Edit: To be clear, I am not advocating. What should happen is that our climate, inequality, and injustice trends get fixed through peaceful cooperation. But our current crop of billionaires don’t show a lot of sign of either wanting that, or having any real awareness of where their current path, historically, goes. Which wouldn’t really be material to me, other than beacuse I’m at risk both from the climate, and from how guillotines historically kill a lot of bystanders.
