Hilariously enough, in Japan it kinda sorta works not really but ish… They have so many loan words from English that if you just say an English word in a Japanese accent it might be the right one. Like the word for print is purinto, hotel is hotelu (hoteru), and camera is kamera.
They also get taught English in school for multiple years, and English is on almost every sign in major metro areas
Travelling to Japan while only knowing a couple of phrases went perfectly fine due to most people being able to understand what I needed them to, even when my wife and I got lost and had a group of 6 or so people at a local hospital frantically trying to help us find our hotel
I lived there a couple years, if all else fails there is an even higher rate of understanding written English than spoken. In the two years I was there I never felt like I was in a situation ever I needed to know how to read or speak the language(s) even though I did make an effort.
My first experience was having to get from the airport to a hotel in Tokyo to stay the night. A gentleman outside the airport helped show me how the buses worked (those drivers are crazy) and when I got to the hotel counter the gal pulled out a pen and paper since I only knew English and we wrote back and forth to each other. After that my concern over getting lost went away, everyone was really friendly and helpful in my experience.
Yeah after years living here I’m finally trying to learn how to actually read, but I gotta say that memorizing a thousand kanji and still barely being able to read shit is pretty discouraging.
I’ve been practicing that alphabet for over a year. I still see some of them, and my mind just blanks. It’s fun, though, slowly understanding more as time goes on.
It’s surprisingly doable. If you have a free weekend you can learn all of them. Even one day may be enough if you are dedicated and a quick learner. Of course, repetition is a must if you don’t want to forget them again, but the initial investment is really not that big.
This resource suggests mnemonics which are surprisingly effective. They teach hiragana first, but it’s not a hard requirement if you want to learn katakana exclusively.
I did my first trip to Tokyo a few months ago. A week before leaving I started playing a kana learning game on my phone while I was on the train to work. I also played it during the flight over.
Two things I figured out:
Just learn katakana. Even if you do learn hiragana, it just sounds out the japanase words that you don’t know anyway. Katakana seemed to be used exclusively for English pronunciation.
It’s actually fun. The majority of signs and labels are bilingual and you will see English and Katakana side-by-side. Once I walked into a cafe (in Disneyland) that had no English menu. The whole thing was katakana. I figured out how to order a “ka-fe ra-te” (cafe latte) and a “ko-ka ko-ra” (Coca Cola). I was so pleased with myself.
Is the u pronounced? I recently learned katakana and it seems like the u variant is used to just get the consonant, i.e. if you pronounce words by leaving out the u they often match more closely to the English word than if you do pronounce the u (or to (ト), because tu doesn’t exist, it’s tsu). The two examples you gave match that thesis.
The u is pronounced, but it’s a shorter sound than English u. Vowels in Japanese are shorter than English ones, which makes sense for a language where vowel length matters, eg su (vinegar) is a different word than suu (to smoke).
I’m trying to think of a word that wouldn’t use u as an insert between 2 English consonants, like trip becomes torippu, but that’s probably because they wanted to avoid tsurippu, as you mentioned about tsu. One word is garasu meaning glass (the material), but they also have gurasu, meaning drinking glass.
Most words do tend to use the u between English consonants though (supo-tsu, purezento, surippa, sute-ki, etc).
The kana alphabets were (probably) borrowed from Pali, and syllables follow the structure (consonant + vowel) or (vowel). In other words, a consonant must not, grammatically, occur alone. I don’t know if Japanese still retains this as an explicit rule, but this is why you see the -u ending. It may or may not be pronounced, depending on which way flows better.
Many other languages with Pali / Sanskrit heritage have similar behaviour. However, Sanskrit itself and some modern languages have a dedicated character called a ‘viraama’, which says ‘this consonant has no following vowel’. For example, in the word ‘Padma’ (lotus), the d is followed by a virama. Other languages, like Japanese, use ‘u’ instead of a dedicated viraama. So different languages in east, southeast and south Asia might write and say it as Padma, Paduma or Padama, but all versions would be mutually intelligible.
Hilariously enough, in Japan it kinda sorta works not really but ish… They have so many loan words from English that if you just say an English word in a Japanese accent it might be the right one. Like the word for print is purinto, hotel is hotelu (hoteru), and camera is kamera.
They also get taught English in school for multiple years, and English is on almost every sign in major metro areas
Travelling to Japan while only knowing a couple of phrases went perfectly fine due to most people being able to understand what I needed them to, even when my wife and I got lost and had a group of 6 or so people at a local hospital frantically trying to help us find our hotel
I lived there a couple years, if all else fails there is an even higher rate of understanding written English than spoken. In the two years I was there I never felt like I was in a situation ever I needed to know how to read or speak the language(s) even though I did make an effort.
My first experience was having to get from the airport to a hotel in Tokyo to stay the night. A gentleman outside the airport helped show me how the buses worked (those drivers are crazy) and when I got to the hotel counter the gal pulled out a pen and paper since I only knew English and we wrote back and forth to each other. After that my concern over getting lost went away, everyone was really friendly and helpful in my experience.
If you learn the katakana alphabet, most signs and menus in Japan are like this. They’re just English words approximated to sounds in Japanese speech.
It’s like, 70 characters. Not huge at all.
Yeah after years living here I’m finally trying to learn how to actually read, but I gotta say that memorizing a thousand kanji and still barely being able to read shit is pretty discouraging.
I’ve been practicing that alphabet for over a year. I still see some of them, and my mind just blanks. It’s fun, though, slowly understanding more as time goes on.
It’s surprisingly doable. If you have a free weekend you can learn all of them. Even one day may be enough if you are dedicated and a quick learner. Of course, repetition is a must if you don’t want to forget them again, but the initial investment is really not that big.
https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-katakana/
This resource suggests mnemonics which are surprisingly effective. They teach hiragana first, but it’s not a hard requirement if you want to learn katakana exclusively.
@KingofHearts615@lemmy.world
I did my first trip to Tokyo a few months ago. A week before leaving I started playing a kana learning game on my phone while I was on the train to work. I also played it during the flight over.
Two things I figured out:
Just learn katakana. Even if you do learn hiragana, it just sounds out the japanase words that you don’t know anyway. Katakana seemed to be used exclusively for English pronunciation.
It’s actually fun. The majority of signs and labels are bilingual and you will see English and Katakana side-by-side. Once I walked into a cafe (in Disneyland) that had no English menu. The whole thing was katakana. I figured out how to order a “ka-fe ra-te” (cafe latte) and a “ko-ka ko-ra” (Coca Cola). I was so pleased with myself.
Oh wow, that website is awesome. I’ll definitely add that into my studying. Thanks.
Is the u pronounced? I recently learned katakana and it seems like the u variant is used to just get the consonant, i.e. if you pronounce words by leaving out the u they often match more closely to the English word than if you do pronounce the u (or to (ト), because tu doesn’t exist, it’s tsu). The two examples you gave match that thesis.
The u is pronounced, but it’s a shorter sound than English u. Vowels in Japanese are shorter than English ones, which makes sense for a language where vowel length matters, eg su (vinegar) is a different word than suu (to smoke).
I’m trying to think of a word that wouldn’t use u as an insert between 2 English consonants, like trip becomes torippu, but that’s probably because they wanted to avoid tsurippu, as you mentioned about tsu. One word is garasu meaning glass (the material), but they also have gurasu, meaning drinking glass.
Most words do tend to use the u between English consonants though (supo-tsu, purezento, surippa, sute-ki, etc).
The kana alphabets were (probably) borrowed from Pali, and syllables follow the structure (consonant + vowel) or (vowel). In other words, a consonant must not, grammatically, occur alone. I don’t know if Japanese still retains this as an explicit rule, but this is why you see the -u ending. It may or may not be pronounced, depending on which way flows better.
Many other languages with Pali / Sanskrit heritage have similar behaviour. However, Sanskrit itself and some modern languages have a dedicated character called a ‘viraama’, which says ‘this consonant has no following vowel’. For example, in the word ‘Padma’ (lotus), the d is followed by a virama. Other languages, like Japanese, use ‘u’ instead of a dedicated viraama. So different languages in east, southeast and south Asia might write and say it as Padma, Paduma or Padama, but all versions would be mutually intelligible.
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