Car brains are out in force for this thread, lol.
Apparently, if you can’t transit products by car or truck, directly to the front-door of every business, the city will collapse.
That there are cities that have actually done this doesn’t seem to stop them insisting it’s impossible.
Name five, with populations higher than 50,000.
Fuck_cars on Lemmy is great, I feel like I’m really fighting for the future every time I come here.
On Reddit it was just people trying to out meme each other
Fuck_cars on Lemmy is great, I feel like I’m really fighting for the future every time I come here.
Lol
These people also forget that “delivery trucks allowed” is common. Cutting out 95% of cars and leaving delivery vehicles is fine.
I worry more about emergency services access…
What is your proposed alternative solution for logistics in any moderately dense urban area? Like never mind New York, you couldn’t make this work in Little Rock.
Why don’t you read the article? It’s all spelled out right there.
What? No it isn’t.
No part of the article discusses replacing the logistics function of cargo vehicles, but it does propose ripping out the road infrastructure they run on.
Currently, no. But with mixed zoning, it would become more amenable to change over time.
This is a fantasy. It can’t be implemented in large scale in any practical sense.
Centralization of distribution and centralization of production is always more efficient. You aren’t going to put dairy farms next to apartment buildings next to orchards next to paper manufacturing plants next to microchip fabricators next to restaurants next to family homes next to waste water treatment next to hospitals next to bookstores next to power generators next to garbage incinerators next to grocery stores…
These things get separated from each other for good reason, and running rail lines to all of them will never be practical. There will always be a need to fill the gap with small, independently powered vehicles for cargo transport.
You know, for someone who complains about other people making strawman of them, you sure do seem fond of it yourself.
Someone: “We should reduce our dependency on cars and shift our infrastructure planning toward other modes of transport wherever possible.”
You: “SO YOU WANT TO TEAR OUT ALL ROADS EVERYWHERE AND EXECUTE PEOPLE FOR OWNING CARS?!?1!?!1?”
“We should reduce our dependency on cars and shift our infrastructure planning toward other modes of transport wherever possible.”
This is not what the article says.
SO YOU WANT TO TEAR OUT ALL ROADS EVERYWHERE
This is closer to what the article says.
A government adviser has called for roads in cities to be “ripped out completely” to combat air pollution.
This is the first paragraph of the article.
…and then you actually read the article past the misleading click bait, right? The Telegraph is a conservative paper, they have an interest in smearing anyone who challenges the status quo.
Up to 80 per cent of people living on arterial routes in urban areas did not own cars, with most of the pollution being caused by motorists driving into and through their communities.
Pointing to the “greening” of city centres such as Seoul and Utrecht, he said: “We should start changing our cities and actually start thinking about ripping out road infrastructure and turning them into green spaces or green transport corridors. We have to look beyond traffic.”
That is not something a reasonable person would interpret as ripping out 100% of roads. Especially since he references real projects like Seoul.
ripping out road infrastructure
Gentle reminder: This site is basically a tabloid at this point and should not be used as a serious source. If you have to, at least use an archived version.
I can’t read the article (paywall), but it seems to me that there might be a distinction between road and street that some people in this thread don’t know about.
I’ll quote the main bit, standard problems and he’s not wrong about the solutions. Why should London residents put up with rich out of London drivers polluting where they live? There is a tube and train already. Cutting down the number of routes for through traffic and turning the old roads into parks would be great. And exactly what is already happening in places with ltns
"He cited a north London councillor who described traffic as an “invasive species” that “swamps all other types of transport”. Up to 80 per cent of people living on arterial routes in urban areas did not own cars, with most of the pollution being caused by motorists driving into and through their communities.
Pointing to the “greening” of city centres such as Seoul and Utrecht, he said: “We should start changing our cities and actually start thinking about ripping out road infrastructure and turning them into green spaces or green transport corridors. We have to look beyond traffic.”
This needed to be combined with a drive to get people out of their cars and into walking, cycling and using public transport, which would not only help tackle climate change but also improve health and so reduce pressures on the NHS."
Pointing to the “greening” of city centres such as Seoul and Utrecht
Nimby crash course, vocabulary edition!
Roads in the 21st century incarnation of English almost always refer specifically to car infrastructure.
Streets are not the same as roads, it describes the space between two rows of properties. Modern streets typically contain a road for cars, but also sidewalks, trees, gardens, lounge spaces, etc. There’s a reason it’s called street food and not road food, because they’re selling on the streets and not in the middle of the roads where they’ll get run over.
Every time something like this gets brought up, you always get Nimbys screeching how this will evict everyone from their homes or whatever, and I think it’s because they think removing roads means also removing the streets themselves, when in reality it means the streets get restored and become much more welcoming and people friendly.
Wow, post is getting a lot of traction. Wish some of the actual actionable ones had the same level of activity
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Not a horrible idea if you have solid, simple, and actionable plans to replace them with robust, simple, and effective public transport options. Otherwise… yeah, a bit too far.
Uh huh, and what about material delivery to stores, restaurants, &etc in the city? What about postal service?
We should absolutely invest more in public transit, but light rail and buses are not logistics solutions.
Trains carry cargo all the time. I don’t think it’s too crazy to suggest light rail be adapted to do the same.
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And we’re going to build rails to every store, restaurant, and other business that needs cargo pickup & delivery? And run a train to each of them, every day? And you think that would end up being more efficient/environmentally friendly than trucks?
Every store? Obviously not. Running cargo trams through major business or industrial districts, though? More plausible, if the will exists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CarGoTram
Something like that, but as a public service.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CarGoTram
The main route went from the logistics center in Friedrichstadt via Postplatz and Grunaer Straße to Straßburger Platz and finally on to the factory.
This went from one logistics center to one production facility. It is insane to think that this could be a scalable solution.
Wow, a train line goes defunct in a country that heavily subsidizes car infrastructure and actively works against other modes of transportation. I’m shocked, really. Shocked.
I didn’t say anything about it going defunct. That has to be one of stupidest attempts at a straw man I’ve ever seen.
I pointed out that it only ever carried material from one location to one other location, and that such a system would not be scalable to serving an entire city.
Did you even read my comment?
Sorry. Good luck transporting a washing machine or full kitchen on public transport.
Delivery of a full kitchen is not something that makes up the majority of traffic. I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t use a van for the “last mile” in such edge cases.
Even washing machines can be delivered by cargo bike/trike though.
How would you ‘use a van’ if the roads are “ripped out completely”?
You do understand nobody is talking about ripping out all roads everywhere, right?
Right?
It’s literally the title.
Have a look at the Netherlands friend. I’ve seen people towing dishwashers behind their bikes more than once while living there.
A dishwasher isn’t that heavy. A washing machine is.
We primarily use small vans. Eg. Utrecht, the example mentioned in the article:
And that’s fine. You can have almost no cars, but still use vans when they’re required.
Hell, do like the small Swiss town in that Tom Scott video. Abolish cars for private individuals or the able bodied. But you’ll still need (small, electric) cars and vans to transport the heavy stuff.
That and tradespeople often use their van as a mobile workplace. Tablesaw, semi-complete inventory of parts they may need, etc.
You joke, but I have done this. Wheelchair accesible trams are awesome for this. Put appliance on hand truck walk it into the tram. No heavy lifting required like when loading it in a car.
A washing machine? That shit’s heavy.
A cheap logistics hand truck carries weights up to 250kg. If you need more it become a bit annoying because you need to switch to using OSB Boards with casters.
Source: My life and helping friends move.
Bonus: Hand trucks are really convenient to transport full size kegs and CO2 bottles to parties by tram.
Who said we were abandoning all of them?
Street vs Road.You can totally have delivery vehicles for stores on a street, but no other cars are allowed.
This is different from “ripped out completely”, which is what is proposed in the article. So the answer to your question is that Dr. Fuller said that.
Apparently you didnt read past the headline and dont want to understand the content… welp, cant help ya there.
“We should start changing our cities and actually start thinking about ripping out road infrastructure and turning them into green spaces or green transport corridors."
You mean that ‘rest of the article’?
At this point, I’d settle for taking the 2-lane road segments in my town that turn into 4-lane nightmares and then merge back into 2-lane streets a dozen blocks later with bike lanes and parking, and getting rid of the 4-lane parts that often don’t have sidewalks or bike infra.
Sure, these road segments funnel traffic away from the more-residential city grid streets, but they’re also rife with speeding and they make it hard to navigate on a bike unless you happen to know which streets have any sort of infra
I think the ideal is an alternating block structure
Pedestrian Street,
Road,
Pedestrian Street,
Transit only Lane,
Pedestrian Street,
Road,
Pedestrian Street,
Transit Only Lane,
…
Where Pedestrian streets cross roads, have car traffic enter a roundabout sunk below the pedestrian path, when they cross transit lanes, have a gate bridge that closes off the lane whenever a tram or bus isn’t near the crossing, same deal when car traffic crosses a tram or bus lane
Voila, maximum restriction of cross interaction between three separate modes of transport, a full 75% of which is dedicated to pedestrian and transit use, and the last quarter there mostly just for the benefit of last mile package delivery and emergency services, as well as the odd profession that legit has to use automobile transport for whatever reason.
Where do bikes fit in your overall design?
On pedestrian streets like in Amsterdam, apparently they’re less aggro when they aren’t sharing the road with 2 ton death machines
@PhlubbaDubba @throws_lemy I think it’s very sad that you think that “road” is synonymous with cars.
I mean it literally is, like the highway regulators literally use it as a byword for “car only lane”
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Eh, keep some for emergency & delivery vehicles, public transport and bicycles.
They don’t actually rip up roads but just put retractable bollards there that are lowered for emergency vehicles and cargo delivery with a permit.
Paywall.
I wonder how he thinks how supermarket shelves or the storage of his favorite restaurants are filled. He might be in for a surprise when no trucks will be delivering anything in the city. Or does he believe his local Tesco is getting it’s wares by tube?
It’s not clear from the way the article quotes him exactly what he said should be “ripped out completely”. You seem to be interpreting it as “all city roads should be ripped out completely”.
I suspect he’s saying we could rip out many city roads, completely turning them into green spaces and with forms of more active transport. I don’t think this is saying remove all roads to the extent goods vehicles can’t enter.
Gasp how will we maintain capitalism if we can’t exploit and pollute the earth?
So we simply dissolve cities instead? Without inflow of goods, workers, and customers cities are not able to survive.
Goods:
Rail, tram, cargo bikes interconnected at re-implemented logistic centres.
Workers:
Public transport, (electric) bicycles
Customers:
Retail will change, but cities will not lose their function of overspecialisation.
Nice fantasy. Nobody will pay for the first, the second will be a complete illusion with the current state of public transport (and how you want to get people with 30+ km commute one way to bike, even electric, will remain an unsolved riddle). The only thing with the third is, you are right, it will change, I.e. it will kill off in-city retail completely.
To take this to its logical conclusion, once the streets are gone, there is no need for buildings anymore, so they can tear those all down and plant a forest. But then you wonder where you are going to put all the people who used to live and work there.
On a train, bus, bike, and foot. Odd, it’s like cities existed for 4 millennia without cars.
Who said anything about streets? The article only mentions removing roads, which makes sense to me
Average muskbrain energy here.
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Nothing says abject stupidity like taking an argument to its extremes no matter the cost.
Tearing out extra lanes that do nothing but encourage more traffic, adding protected cycling lanes or reducing road speed are seen as extreme by those that made the decisions that have created the infrastructure we have. In reality these are compromises.
‘Share the road’ is not a compromise. Sharrows are not a compromise. Jaywalking laws are not a compromise. Victim blaming is not a compromise. Media dehumanising pedestrians is not a compromise.Nobody ever fucking considered anything else but cars, drivers and the car lobby when installing these things.
Now tearing it out city centers to focus on humans and humanity is extreme?
You would absolutely not rip them out of you want bike lanes, buses etc.
You don’t need 4+ lanes for that.
Well, you sure know what you’re talking about, you-need-to-allow-white-pride… 🙃
Taken out of context. I also said that you-need-to-allow-black-pride…
But you keep taking the Redditor approach to things, sifting through peoples history to attack things they said out of context, instead of actually making a meaningful attempt at a discussion. It’s BOUND to make lemmy a replica of the place you fled from.
Really meaningful attempt at starting a conversation like so, troll? https://lemmy.world/comment/5742227
Is it also out of context when you compare your straight daughter’s experiences to, and I quote, „Jews during the holocaust“?
Maybe nobody wants to have a meaningful discussion with you because you’re an outrageously obtuse asshole.
Yes, you’ve clearly taken that out of context as well. SO much so now that you’re putting words in my mouth.
Do you understand what it was like being a Jew during the holocaust? […] My 15 year old daughter has told me multiple times in the past that in school now - if you don’t claim you’re LGBT in some orientation, you get bullied for not being that. […] But that sounds like it’s okay with you, because straight people are “the wrong people”.
Yeah, include the whole thing. I said, do you know what it was like to be a jew during the holocaust? No - even though you were educated about it.
Then the subject changes ENTIRELY. Unwitting git. You’re doing exactly the same fucking thing. You’ve changed the context by omitting large portions of text. You should be a FOX news anchor. Because not only do you lack reading comprehension, you lie by omission to suit your goals of painting something in a light that has nothing to do with the facts.
Do you understand what it was like being a Jew during the holocaust? Even though you have been educated about it…do you really? Education doesn’t impart anything more than knowledge. Knowledge is not Understanding.
This – in direct response to someone saying that straight people have representation, that everything is “straight representation” by default.
And yes, it’s an adult arguing for this, because nobody will listen to a child and children need Adult proxies to argue for things when they can’t. Did your parents never take up arms for you as a child when you were wronged?
Again, because the argument was because an Adult was fighting for it, it wasn’t what the kid wanted, when clearly Adults go to bat for kids on their behalf over all sorts of things.
It’s discrimination to display LGBT flags all over the schools and then balk when others want to be represented as well. But it’s clear that you support discrimination, so long as it’s “for the right people”.
Then, all the way down here…WAY LATER in the fucking conversation…
My 15 year old daughter has told me multiple times in the past that in school now - if you don’t claim you’re LGBT in some orientation, you get bullied for not being that. So much so that an increasing number of kids say they are just to be left alone about it. My niece of the same age has confirmed it with me as well, because initially I didn’t believe my own daughter. It sounded way too outlandish to actually be true.
But here you go cutting out all of the rest to make it sound like I was comparing people getting bullied for not being LGBTQ, to the fucking holocaust. Which is a FUCKING LEAP AND A HALF.
The part about the jews during the holocaust is because EVERYONE is taught quite SUCCINCTLY about that subject, and it’s one that everyone can quite CLEARLY agree with that even though they have been educated on what happened – the education they received does not impart anything other than knowledge of the event. Not any kind of realistic understanding of what those people lived through.
You may know about what happened during WWII, but there is no way your education will ever make you understand truly what those people went through. End of point. The point being that Education imparts knowledge not necessarily understanding. Which harkens back to my argument that simply educating children why they are being left out of “Pride” because they are straight, does not mean that it imparts the understanding as to why they are being discriminated against.
Too bad it takes an exponential amount more effort to educate an idiot than it does simply to refute or bullshit as you have done.
Not only that, BUT IN A FORUM ABOUT CARS FOR FUCKS SAKE. The first thing you morons did was GET OFFTOPIC, and start calling me a Nazi, for DARING have a different opinion ABOUT CARS…
This conversation doesn’t even fucking belong here. But you moron fucks dragged me down into the dirt with your idiocy, and I was stupid enough to roll around in it with you. Each of those paragraphs which you so helpfully keep pulling out like some “GOTCHA!” are individual rebuttals to each of the arguments made in paragraph of the person that I was responding to in a different part of lemmy entirely. There are 3 separate rebuttals there, and somehow you’ve tied them together like I was trying to paint my daughter as some equivalent to one of the worst events in human history.
You fail sir. You fail so fucking hard it is embarassing. Get the fuck ahold of yourself. And get the fuck back on topic about CARS for fucks sake.
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And Black Pride is also associated with the criminal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party
So that tells me you’re okay with one terrorist organization over another because one matches the right color of skin right?
Because I’m just using the same arguments you are…you’re either an idiot, or you’re an idiot who supports terrorists, right?
If you look at my comment history I’m clearly not a Nazi supporter but that doesn’t fit your preconcluded narrative. So wouldn’t want to bring that to anyones attention. Oh wait, because it’s not that at all – you just didn’t scroll far enough. You saw one thing, latched onto it, and then proceeded to make yourself look like a complete buffoon.
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„I’m not a Nazi, but…“
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So what did we do before we had widespread cargo trucking? Did we just not deliver any cargo ever? Everyone just wandered around dropping limes all over the place 'cause they’d only figured out how to carry them with their bare hands, until Henry Ford invented gas station sushi and revolutionized transportation forever?
Well, in the interest of not wasting everybody’s time, I’ll tell you: they organized their towns and cities around rail. This happened right here in the United States, with the stated example being in Philadelphia. Even the old West Coast cities were organized in much the same way for a long time. That was the only way they had available to them, and somehow, they still managed to have an economy.
We have a lot of retrofitting to do to regain that ideal. But it’s possible.
Trucks were invented in 1890s. By 1900 the world’s population was 1.6 billion, 5 times smaller than it is now.
But population numbers aren’t the only thing that has changed since then.
A hundred some years ago FDA didn’t exist. You could buy eggs, meat, etc. from your local farmers and butchers. Now, you need licenses and to comply with a whole bunch of different codes. Fewer people can comply with those, so the average distance things need to be shipped has increased.
There’s, also, a lot more things nowadays that were never possible to produce locally (or even just close by) to begin with. Semiconductors, medications, even fine fabrics for clothing require fairly complex processes and logistics. You can’t just plop a fab or a lab in every large-ish city - that is going to be even more of a nightmare to supply with resources necessary to keep it running, than shipping final product from somewhere else far away.
All of those are phenomenal arguments for heavily reinvesting in our freight rail.
Rail can’t realistically be connected to everyone’s house. You always need a solution for that final mile.
For smaller stuff, a (cargo) bike is a perfect solution.
For heavier stuff, like a mobile work place or a 40ft steel beam, you will always need something else. Right now the best option is a (small, electric) van or truck. For that you will need at least some roads. You can prevent them from being accessible to anything but professionals who absolutely need access. But you will still need a limited amount of them.
Perfect is the enemy of good. Being a zealot about this, is self-defeating and won’t convince enough people.
So what did we do before we had widespread cargo trucking?
Agrarian society - wagons and hand carts.
they organized their towns and cities around rail
Towns and cities were significantly smaller and less complex. Rail does not scale. Adding new rail spurs is prohibitively time-consuming and inflexible.
Seriously, how would you propose to handle citywide garbage/recycling collection with light rail and no motorized vehicles? (Just for instance).
Your history is wrong. We had begun industrializing about 100 years before trucks were invented and more like 160 before they really became dominant.
And are you literally arguing that building rail is more cost prohibitive, time consuming, and inflexible than building roads? Like actually? Unironically? I’m sorry, buddy, but when you start getting into numbers, that’s my territory and you’re out of your depth. https://alankandel.scienceblog.com/2014/01/11/rails-vs-roads-for-value-utilization-emissions-savings-difference-like-night-and-day/
If only we properly invested in history education in this country. Then maybe people wouldn’t be embarrassing themselves by making arguments like yours.
We had begun industrializing about 100 years before trucks were invented and more like 160 before they really became dominant.
We enslaved, hurt, and killed millions of horses.
This only addresses passenger transit and none of the logistics issues which have been my actual argument.
This is not practical for transporting cargo around a moderately sized urban area. It never will be.
What you’ve been failing to consider, which I think I may have been taking as read to my detriment, is that the way our cities are organized plays a big role in determining which mode of shipping is more effective. The denser of a center you have, the more businesses you have concentrated in one place, the more you need capacity and the less you need flexibility. That inverts as things get more spread out and stuff needs to get to more different places. When you have a city organized around its rail infrastructure rather than a sprawling car-dependent mess, that rail infrastructure absolutely kills at supplying the place, significantly reducing the severity of the last-mile problem.
I will also note that even the most anti-car places still rightfully allow for delivery vehicles, and neither I nor I think any other person who doesn’t like cars would begrudge that. I personally just think that pretty much any shipping done by big rig when it could be done by rail is a missed opportunity.
Here are a few additional links for you to consider:
Trucking is heavily subsidized
The interstates are increasingly a metaphorical financial albatross around our collective neck
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A government adviser has called for roads in cities to be “ripped out completely” to combat air pollution.
First paragraph.
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ripping out road infrastructure
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I don’t get the point of highlighting “public transport”. Maybe you’re not explaining your point very well, or not understanding mine.
My point is that no public transport options are practical as logistics solutions, especially for last-mile delivery, and therefore ripping out the roads completely (as proposed in the article) will never be practical. There will always be a need for small, independently powered vehicles to fill the gaps.
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Just to offer one possible alternative: cargo bikes/trikes are a thing.
Are you fucking kidding me? Have you ever had to transport anything jeavor or large in real life?
Of course they haven’t. That’s something for the help or their parents to worry about.
TIL we never actually moved my girlfriend’s whole household by bike (and cart) when we moved in together.
Why is it that you think your anecdote can be broadly applied to all cargo transit needs?
Do you think a wind turbine could be carried by bicycle?
Ah yes, wind turbines which are famously delivered to locations in dense urban centers.
Oh great, how many cargo bikes would we need to carry a pallet of milk cartons to the local grocery store? How many would we need to replace one truckload?
Doesn’t matter because you also need a refrigeration system to keep the milk from spoiling. Good luck putting that on a bike.
Someone got lucky https://www.kleuster.com/en/produits/refrigerated-cargo-bike/
200 kilos load and 1.3 m3 useful storage
OK, so to carry the same payload as one standard reefer trailer… we’ll use the lightweight value of 49000 lbs (22226 kg)… we’ll only need… 111 refrigerated cargo bikes.
Oh yeah, that’s practical. That will definitely be a workable, scalable solution.
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You all are down voting facts? So sorry that reality doesn’t fit your fantasy.
