If feel like us guys are at a disadvantage here. All our lives were are told not to complain unless we bring a solution, not to cry, get up, keep moving.
Then suddenly the thought pattern we have been trained on all our lives turns out to not be healthy for supporting others and it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Not saying it’s wrong, just hard.
it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Listening is helping. It took me a while to get that, but we’re helping just by being quiet.
Yes, but there’s a disconnect between helping directly and helping indirectly. Listening is indirect help, passive help. It’s helping simply by existing, which is antithetical to the above commenters train of logic.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, or that it’s not something that people should learn to do… but it’s not always something you can solve by making that connection.
Many people don’t want advice and that’s fine. I complain not because I want them to fix it but because it helps me organize my thoughts and verify that my complaints are valid so that I can see if it’s something I can fix myself, often though complaining about bad things that I cannot fix. I am perfectly capable of handling problems as an adult, but people need to vent so they can actually focus on a solution.
Listening is indirect help, passive help. It’s helping simply by existing
Not in my experience. The listener is helping the speaker organize their thoughts, work through their feelings, and (in some cases) decide on a course of action. The listener needs to ask questions, understand the speaker, and help them sort things out.
In a spouse or friend situation, the listener is probably also providing emotional support. Which can be immensely helpful, since it validates the speaker.
There’s also follow up. The listener should talk to the speaker and see how their feelings have evolved.
Yup. It’s akin to “not making a choice is itself a choice”. It doesn’t feel like it is, but can be equally impactful.
I think my problem is also we’re told to be empathetic and emotionally present. So what we’re being asked to do is suffer alongside without being able to alleviate the suffering.
I find this much more difficult than solving whatever the problem is, because, maybe I’m weird, but I feel pretty much all the suffering around me as if it’s happening to me, and especially when it’s my wife suffering.
Perhaps everyone wants to vent a while before they get a solution, but men aren’t allowed to do that.
Rubber ducking, not just for programmers. Listen, acknowledge what you’re hearing, ask open ended questions (not leading), and learn from and about their experience. You’ll grow closer and both people can gain a lot from it.
Interesting. How is that?
If you are asking what rubber ducking is, it’s the practice of explaining your issues to a toy as if it were a coworker. Explaining your issues to a coworker forces you to organise your thoughts and problems so that wherever you tell makes sense, and a lot of times the act of organising pushes you to vetch the fault in your logic, or the issue that needs fixing, the missing part…
Except…
I feel bad for my rubber ducky. It still helps though! The number of support/bug report emails that never get sent because I figured it out from the same thought process is not 0. I read this once, but talking/thinking about the problem, just the problem, for 5+ minutes before trying to come up with solutions can be really helpful.
I see. Do you like rubber ducking?
Not really, I just info dump my partner on my coffee break and since she’s not a dev, the process of simplifying the issue so she somewhat understands and shortening it so she doesn’t get too bored is helpful enough.
And how does that make you feel?
I didn’t realize that I do this to machine operators at work when their machine is broken, thanks for this!
Explaining something as complicated as “Why Your Machine is Fucked and Now You Have to Sweep” to someone lacking the decade of training and experience I have is like a compulsion sometimes.
I don’t think it’s fair to expect your significant other to act as an inanimate object and receive your frustrations without reacting like they normally would. It’s great if you have that kind of relationship, but forcing it is not ok.
You are not supposed to be an inanimate object. You’re supposed to listen, acknowledge, talk about the topic at hands. Empathize, ask questions to better understand the problem. Show interest in your significant other, show them you care about what is upsetting them.
Sometimes people get stuck on the “have you tried the most basic and simplest answer?” questions and it’s frustrating as hell. You can just ask “wanna brainstorm about it?”, at least you’re setting the mood in the right direction.
Also known as being a good listener. Ideally it goes back and forth, too. But there’s a time and a place for everyone to take on the listener/encourager role.
For anyone struggling with this, two hints that might help you frame your role better:
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Listening is the solution. By trying to solve what your SO told you, you are actually trying to solve the wrong problem. Their real problem is that their brain needs to say things aloud to someone in order to correctly process it’s own thoughts. Therapists make a frickin’ living off of that quirk of our brains and it’s the actual problem they come to you with. Even better: By listening you can not only advise on solutions, you can be the solution! Neat, huh?
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Listening and solving aren’t mutually exclusive. If you stick to listening first, your SO might actually come to a point where your advice is wanted. Pro tip: Once their thoughts slow down, ask if they want to hear what you think about the issue. From my experience, the answer will be “yes” very often. That way, your thoughts will actually reach your SO and not get blocked by frustration outright. Yet, as with everything else: No means no. So if you get a no, don’t try again, shut the fuck up, alright?
Or yet another way to look at it is that when people are venting it’s not the actual problem that they’re venting about it’s the uncomfortable emotions that come about as a result of problem. Very usually, someone is doing something that makes their lives harder but it is within a very specific environment, e.g. work, school, some kind of committee, where there are rules against settling disputes by right of arms. So even though I might have a really elegant solution for ‘solving’ that particular dispute, what I tend to be listening to long term tends to be, 'Coworkers… can’t live with 'em, can’t kill ‘em’. To which the correct answer is obviously not ‘You could solve that problem with Piranha Solution - removes organic material from the substrate’, it’s ‘Yes, we do have to put up with annoying people for a long time sometimes.’
Them’s a lot of rules. I think I’ll just choose to remain single.
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I (37M) recently caught myself getting frustrated when my wife offered solutions to my ranting. I just wanted to complain and not be told all the ways I could have avoided the problem in the first place. I finally understand.
Yes! It totally happens to everyone, once you notice it. Best self-awareness/relationship advice I’ve heard is say something like “Are you looking for advice, or someone to listen?”. Phrasing and tone to be adjusted by the individual user, obviously XD
There is, I think, a significant difference between giving suggestions on how to resolve an issue, and a person offering ways you could have prevented it. And I would hazard most people find the latter unhelpful and annoying.
Thank you, yeah it’s like sometimes you just have to work through it before you hear some suggestions.
I was way too old when I learned that you should ask if someone wants advice or just wants to vent. “Are we fixing or bitching?” is what I ask my best friend nowadays and it’s made us less likely to butt heads when one of us just wants to talk shit to get it out.
Sometimes people just need someone to listen to them bitch and moan. Sometimes we don’t need a solution, sometimes there isn’t even a solution.
As a problem-solver, it isn’t only women.
This could also be an issue of this:
The difference between empathy and sympathy
In my experience some people struggle with empathy a lot more than they realise. And the “solutions” they offer are just ways for them to try and get out of an uncomfortable conversation. There are better and more honest ways to do that.
I think we should stop saying empathy and start saying compassion (again.)
Most people don’t know what the differences between sympathy and empathy are and get confused whenever they hear empathy. “You mean sympathy?”
Just say compassion. I get the ‘dm’ crowd has chosen their wording, but it sucks and we can change it.
Replace every instance of ‘empathy’ with compassion and everyone will understand you better, but you won’t be virtue signaling for your crowd.
I don’t think she actually captured what sympathy is. And here’s an counter point to empathy
I don’t think he captured what empathy is. What he says honestly aligns more closely with sympathy by my understanding.
Sympathy involves understanding and feeling sorry for someone’s situation, while empathy goes a step further, involving the ability to share and understand the emotions of another person. It’s almost always a one on one connection. You’re putting yourself in their shoes, personally.
Sympathy often includes a desire to offer solutions or assistance, while empathy is primarily about understanding and sharing emotions. Donating to a charity for the blind out of a sense of feeling sorry for them aligns more with sympathy, as it involves a compassionate response and a potential desire to provide support or solutions without necessarily fully understanding the blind individuals’ emotional experiences. It’s even less empathetic if you’re primarily doing it to feel good. I would personally classify it as altruism or personal fulfilment based on sympathy for their suffering.
I do agree with the general point that you can usually get more done if you pick a lane, I just don’t think the fact that people don’t pick a lane, because they want to feel good for helping many different causes, is based on misguided empathy. And I think it’s wrong to argue empathy is bad based on this premise.
Lastly, even if I’m entirely wrong and it is empathy, he’s only arguing against empathy being bad on a societal level. That does not mean it’s bad on a one on one level such as when talking to a friend, family member or partner. Arguing that ALL empathy is bad just because using empathy to make decisions on “how best to help the world” is bad is incredibly inaccurate.
What if your nature is in constant problem solving mode, my life and work revolve around solving problems so it’s a natural neurological pathway. Should someone like that work overtime to suppress how they think about a situation, and stay quiet until they formulate some method of discussion and acknowledgement of the problem, without offering solutions?
What if your nature is in constant problem solving mode, my life and work revolve around solving problems so it’s a natural neurological pathway.
If that’s why you’re problem solving then your urge Problem solving is for you and about you . Not for them. If you’re making room for someone in your life that means letting things also be about them.
Should someone like that work overtime to suppress how they think about a situation, and stay quiet
Again: making it about you and how it’s inconvenient for you.
until they formulate some method of discussion and acknowledgement of the problem, without offering solutions?
Sometimes it is about them finding their voice. And at times it’s about letting them learn. It can be empowering for them to grow.
You might offer help when asked or when you know someone definitely is incapable. But let others have their space and their journey too especially if you know they are capable.
Problem solving is sometimes a problem in and of itself especially in situations of where it’s enabling or stifling others or stopping you from connecting to them.
I think some people are just not compatible with each other. To try and claim one way is right or better or more rational is surprisingly unrational and not aligned with finding a solution.
When you are unable to offer emotional support or empathy to your partner, communicate early that you won’t be willing or able to listen to their problems on their terms. Then they can decide if that’s okay with them. Problem solved.
Maybe consider it from the other perspective - the other party wants to be heard. That’s the problem you’re trying to solve.
Can you solve it? How would you solve it? What approaches make them feel heard? What feedback do they need from you to indicats they are being heard? How do you get feedback from them that they feel heard? What are the words you should use? How will you know they are wanting to be heard? What are the words they are using? What are the facial expressions they are using? What are they doing with their body while they’re talking to you? 1What situations are likely to bring about an instance which they are wanting to be heard?
I had to do this a bit when moving into people management. After a whole you become practised at it and it’s not hard any more.
This. Turn it into a puzzle and maybe you won’t be stressed out when you can’t instantly solve it so you don’t have to listen
I forgot who, but someone told me i should ask; “do you need an ear or a solution” whenever people come rant about anything. Best tips i heard in a while.
Yes, I started doing this as well with my GF. If she is describing a problem at work or whatever I ask “Do you want me to tell you how I would fix this, or do you just want me to listen?” and like 75% of the time she already knows what to do and just wants me to listen to the problem and then when she is done she feels better because she got to vent, but sometimes she really does want an answer. It works out good for both of us.
I got a better one what makes it less obvious: listen and only offer a solution if they ask for it.
I get annoyed because the “solution” they offer is usually the most obvious thing that anyone could come up with in 2 seconds. It’s like, don’t you think I’ve already thought of that? I wouldn’t complain about something if the solution was simple and obvious.
Yes. Hear me out though. Sometimes the stress of the problem makes those solutions easily forgettable. It’s good to have someone ask the obvious questions. It also helps them to find out where you are in your troubleshooting so if they do have something that might work that wasn’t addressed they can provide that as an option. People don’t typically get instant downloads of everything that’s been tried.
It’s probably best to assume if a person has been living with a problem for more than 3 days that they’ve tried everything that can be searched or obtained within 24 hours. And you may have just learned about it mere seconds ago from a simple search on google. Grilling them on everything they tried after they just told probably 3 doctors and all their closest relatives is gonna come off really dismissive and critical particularly of their own ability to problem solve their own problems.
It’s sort of really dependent on what people want out of you, which has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes people just want someone to vent at, or, they want someone to kind of be like “hey that sucks sorry about that”, and actually care about them and their hardships (these are usually the situations in which people are facing some sort of inevitable problem that they have the solution for, but the only solution sucks), what they need is emotional support, and probably a boost to their ego. And then sometimes people have been like, facing what’s an unsolvable problem, and they just need kind of a new, fresh pair of eyes on it. The latter is the circumstance in which people will be more open to obvious solutions, because sometimes people just won’t think of them for whatever reason, could even be as simple as just forgetting that something existed. I think, in either case, it’s usually a decent idea to ask obvious questions, and if you end up stepping on a bombshell (“well I ALREADY THOUGHT of THAT!”), that’s usually more of a like, that’s indicative of something that you both have to defuse in the moment, but that’s also something that you can sort of question why that was placed there, and what the foundation of it was. Usually, though, that’s something you reserve for later.
Like others have said, I have started asking first if they need an ear to complain to or are searching for answers and solutions.
I think everyone could do with starting the conversation with “I don’t need solutions. Would you mind listening to a problem I’ve been having?”
Sometimes people like to get worked up instead of solving a problem.
It is a positive thing to talk through your emotions instead of bottling it up.
These are not mutually exclusive.
You’re really steering this conversation hard to call people with emotions ‘drama queens’ / just doing it for attention.
We get it. You don’t have empathy. Stop taking it out on people who can feel their feelings. They aren’t the sick ones in this situation.
There’s nuance to that as always.
If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you but I also don’t feel like engaging further after your pissy response
“Before you start, are you looking for solutions, or are you looking for someone to listen?”
This is an essential relationship skill/concept. Learn it and watch all your relationships improve.
“Are you solution minded or still in the feelings phase?”
You’re not getting it. The listening is the help
Venting is important as a support person. Sometimes it really is just being there for the person.
This meme is pretty belittling to the wife in this scenario and it’s kind of fucked.
Rule #1 of being in a relationship is learning to listen and empathize with your partner. Just sit, and listen quietly, and tell them “that really sucks, I am so sorry, I’m here for you” It’s really that simple. Most of us are techy and leap to a solution because that’s how our brains are wired but they just want someone to listen. Just listen
Concurrently, constantly telling a rational problem solver problems and not letting them offer solutions ALSO takes a mental toll on the listener.
It’s bidirectional. It probably will result in compassion fatigue.
The problem is 9 times out of 10, your problem solving won’t help because they’ve already thought of the fix or you don’t have enough of the nuance involved to offer a viable solution. So to insist on offering, means that your partner now has to balance your ego and how to tell you “yeah I know” or why your idea won’t work.
Top the rational thinker, the problem is “I need to vent my emotions in a healthy manner” and the rational solution is “listen” and if the problem transitions from “I need to vent” to “I need help” then you can work on a solution together.
The core problem, as always, is communication.
If you want to vent, or gain some compassion and care, and you’re talking about your problems to a problem solver - say it.
Don’t say “I have problem A and I don’t need solutions”. Say “I know what to do with this, but it’s very frustrating and I need your support”. Yes, just like that. Admit, with words, that you want them to care for you. That’s it.
If you’re a problem solver, and you know the other person is often willing to just vent, or if you’re not completely sure your advice is wanted, ask it.
Don’t say “Just do B, problem solved”. Say “I might have some ideas on how to help you. Do you want my advice or should I just be there for you?”. And then if they want it - go for it! Don’t expect them to be ignorant of simple solutions; most likely they already thought them over, and either dismissed them for reasons not obvious to you from the first glance, or they already made it part of their plan.
Talk such things through, it will do wonders. For both of you.
I completely agree that you need to communicate. But that is outside the issue posed by the previous poster who said that it’s too emotionally taxing to just listen when you want to problem solve. Their comment implies that the conversation has been had, they know their partner just needs to vent, but being the listener their partner needs will cause “compassion fatigue”
So I attempted to rephrase it so that the “rational problem solver” could satisfy their “need to problem solve in contradiction to what their partner needs” by presenting it in a way that listening, is in fact the solution, to the problem at hand.
Fair, but let’s be honest, most of the time a partner may not want to hear about a solution because they first want compassion and understanding. Be willing to listen, and your partner will talk about a solution when they are ready.
I can’t speak to “most of the time” as I only have experience with my relationships. In my current one, problem solving and empathy both are used to great results.
ya, I think the person b4 you is jumping to conclusions a bit. What matters is what works for the couple, not some generalized assumption about their dynamic. The meme could have been in jest and if we want to give OP the benefit of the doubt here then it probably is
Fucking god yes. My friends wonder why I don’t talk to them about my issues, it’s because they won’t just shut the fuck up and listen.
🎼🎵🎶Let’s swap eyes so we can empathize🎶🎵
Eeeeehhhhhhh I have a feeling Lemmy is going to skin me alive for this but I can’t help myself.
It’s not about the nail.
It’s funny, but she’s right, it’s not about the nail. Never was.
