Given many new handhelds coming on the scene and general disinterest of Microsoft to support the market, do you think SteamOS will take place of default OS the same way Android did on phones some time ago?
Fuck I hope so
For the future of PC gaming I sure as hell hope so. People stick to and defend Windows as their go-to 'till the bitter end, likely not realizing Linux could be everything their Windows machine is and there is a real industry player with a lot of money making this reality right now. If we just let it.
If we would just give Linux the critical mass, we could free the last locked aspect of PC gaming, the OS itself. That way we would no longer be at the whims of Microsoft’s decisions because let’s face it, even Windows users hate the shit they do.
Linux, currently, cannot handle everything Windows can unfortunately. Windows also has a massive software support advantage. Valve are in the best place to try and give Linux to the masses, but that’s a lot of work and it won’t have much return for them. Windows getting worse is the way Linux will get more market share, but most people are not power users and will probably just use Windows anyway as it ‘just works’.
The reason Valve is so heavily investing in Linux is that they know that Microsoft could - in theory - flip a switch and kill their business, especially because Microsoft themselves is a competitor to Valve in the form of Xbox and Gamepass.
It’s a defensive tactic, not a money-making venture.
And realistically Microsoft has a very good moment coming up in the next few years to effectively kill Steam: Valve only delivers pre-compiled files and does not have access to source code. Therefore Valve is not only stuck with a “Windows-like environment”, they are also shackled to x86. With Apple’s M-processors reigning supreme in the laptop space with insane values for performance-to-powerdraw (and in turn heat radiation and cooling requirements), the days of x86-by-default laptops are probably numbered and more manufacturers may want to switch to ARM, to avoid unfavorable comparisons to MacBooks. With Windows for ARM Microsoft can finally kill of all traces of Win32 in WinRT, as they tried for years and force everyone to use UWP-apps from the store exclusively on ARM. Apple does leave apps behind, when updating their operating systems on a regular basis, a similar move by Microsoft wouldn’t look totally unreasonable. The switch could even happen gradually, like Apple’s Rosetta translation layer, which runs x86 apps on arm great right now, but I don’t think it will be maintained forever and support for x86 apps on macOS will end one day. Microsoft could do the same for Windows for ARM. If this happens Valve will probably have the opportunity to install games as UWP-apps, but their back catalog of Win32 .exes becomes effectively worthless. But if Win32 .exes run great through some translation layer on linux, valve can continue to sell and support their back catalog on current hardware.
With Apple’s M-processors reigning supreme in the laptop space with insane values for performance-to-powerdraw (and in turn heat radiation and cooling requirements) the days of x86-by-default laptops are probably numbered and more manufacturers may want to switch to ARM, to avoid unfavorable comparisons to MacBooks.
I think this is a misconception.
M-processors are not amazing because they are ARM, or because they are Apple.
They are pretty much where everyone else is al well, just one node shrink ahead, because Apple is the first in Line, because they can pay for it.for example, Apple M1 GPU vs Steam Deck GPU, Apple has a ~60% GPU lead (in performance measured in TFLOPs fp32). On the CPU side it’s ~70% (in a fairly bad comparison, as there are notable differences between the analog used here). But the thing so many people ignore is that the M1 is on TSMC N5, whereas the Steam Deck GPU is built on the N7 node, (and there was the N6 node in between those two!)
The A12 is Apples N7 SoC, and draws up to ~6W, and the GPU has roughly 1/3rd of AMD Steam Deck compute, pretty in line with power draw.
Watt for Watt, Node for Node pure performance seems just good to me, not really surpassing anything else by a lot.I partially agree for the GPU-side of things. But while there have been iPads without active cooling for over a decade now, there has never been a competitive, high performance laptop like the current MacBook Air build on x86. I know you are right theoretically and maybe it is a solvable challenge and the priorities were just different, but whatever ARM does, it seems to run cooler than x86. Even if it is only bigLITTLE or some other shortcut.
there has never been a competitive, high performance laptop like the current MacBook Air build on x86
That bit is easy to explain. Apple (again) is on the latest node, so they do currently have the highest performance per watt SoC out there.
So it seems unsurprising that it’s hard to compete with the latest. But the N5 is starting to get out. AMDs 7840U should be comparable, but of course is out roughly a year later. And that’s going to be true for a while, because Apples markup allows them enough profits on the latest node and Apples vertical integration means they can be quicker to release a new device with their own new SoC, whereas for the competition they have to wait until AMD releases their products, and then build their product (the Laptop) around that.
I feel like MacOS could also be more efficient than Windows, especially in daily use but I may be wrong on that feeling, Apple is not making it easy to tell.And of course there have been plenty of passively cooled x86 devices, but they’ve not been “good enough”
And finally, none of this is meant to knock Apples Achievements with ARM.
The native extensions for x86 translation they put in are pretty genius.
Being able to compete with AMD/Intel/Nvidia on their first out is really impressive as well.
M1 M2 etc. are great products, they’re just not magic, and unfortunately intentionally very limited (no Vulkan, no DirectX etc.).
That is indeed a good reason, but while it’s possible for Microsoft to do that, it’s extrememly unlikey to ever happen.
Don’t discount it, it feels like they’ve been pushing cloud gaming and their subscription pretty hard
Not just cloud gaming, cloud Windows itself. Gaming is just a massive market now and cutting off Steam would be PR suicide if nothing else, they would only do it if they really thought there was no good alternative for gamers to turn to, but with Valve’s spearheading of Proton etc, I think it would be too risky for MS. But yeah, you never know right.
Windows, currently, cannot handle everything Linux can. Linux also has a massive software support advantage, running on vastly more hardware and architectures than Windows does.
Linux has already been given to the masses. People use it every day in super user friendly ways; they just don’t realize they’re using Linux.
The only reason people use Windows is because they don’t choose it. Imagine if every PC sold had a Linux option and a Windows option that cost an extra $100. What do you think people would buy?
The same hardware running Linux will easily outperform Windows (especially at the most common end user tasks like web browsing) by a long shot. In a few days NTFS turns 30 years old FFS (LOL).
Any given hardware accessory will “just work” when plugged in to a Linux PC but Windows will require a special driver that you have to go out and find on your own at the vendor’s website that will be bloated AF. It’ll also reinstall it if you change the USB port LOL.
I get it you like Linux, so do I. And I just have yet to have a smooth experience with it as a desktop and for games. We talking about the average gaming market here, nothing more, Linux is obviously very powerful and is the most used OS outside of desktops.
Most users have Nvidia cards that still do not play nicely with a lot of Linux setups, although that seems to be coming around now. Linux is a very customisable platform and it can be a lot better than Windows if you spend the time tweaking every aspect of it, but you are kidding yourself if you think Linux is better OOTB than Windows for most users. It’s fine for us to stick our heads into wikis and play around in the terminal, but most people don’t want to bother with all that.
I hope Linux does get more adoption so that support is further improved and I hope it reaches that tipping point where most people can pick up for their everyday machines.
The only reason people use Windows is because they don’t choose it. Imagine if every PC sold had a Linux option and a Windows option that cost an extra $100. What do you think people would buy?
I think they would buy windows, because the software they need to do their job only runs on windows.
because every pc runs windows, if more and more pcs default to linux even more apps gonna support it
Most people that by a console or a laptop in a store don’t even know what an operating system is. If you would just put linux on all consumer machines, no one would question it and if they do, the seller would say “It is a new version”
And then when they get home and none of their very specific programs that only work on windows run on linux (like photoshop, or microsoft office, or something similar), they’ll come back to you and ask what is wrong with their computer.
95% of people do not need spific software. They need a webbrowser and a software for writige emails and letters. That is why every store ist trying to sell them chromebooks. For the 5% that come back and say that their conputer is not working just say sorry and give them a windows machine and a giftcard for the inconvenience. Overall the store should still make money dooing so. After all, that is what they are dooing with chromebooks at the moment
Uh, no. I tried Linux (Mint). I hated it. It doesn’t even have a damn colorblind mode… The best you can hope for is a goofy workaround with some app that’s meant for devs testing colorblind modes, and that may or may not even work. Colorblind mode is a rock bottom basic accessibility feature, especially in 2023, and the most highly recommended distro for people coming from Windows doesn’t even have that.
And it rather shows that average or non-Linux-nerd users, and what they need from their OS, are not a priority at all, which means the system will never be friendly or appealing to them until and unless that changes.
I also personally hated the way it wanted me to install everything from a launcher, vs downloading exe’s from their owners websites that have a lot more info than the generic Linux launcher does.
I hated all the crashes, the requirement for tinkering at random times when I really just needed my PC to work reliably, and the way so many people in the Linux community look down on and/or insult everyone who asks for help with anything or has any gripe about Linux (thus assuring helpful feedback from average users won’t be reporter or heard, their problems won’t be fixed, and confusing UI will remain confusing and bogged down in jargon).
Linus Tech did a good youtube series on what Linux is like to encounter as a newbie. He had problems. When even one of the most popular tech/PC youtubers has problems right out the gate, how can you expect it to work for everyone else?
I want it to get better and become a real conpetitor to Windows, but it just flat out isn’t yet except for specific applications like servers, and pretending it is only insures it won’t ever be. The culture around it is holding it back.
Tl;dr: there are actually quite a lot of people like me who are aware of Linux and choose Windows or Mac instead.
Tell that to all the PC gamers that build their own PC and then buy Windows for it.
I specifically phrased it “could be” as people tend to believe there are 3 preferences, Mac, Linux and Windows. Linux is not one user experience, it could work exactly like your favorite OS. In the face of SteamOS already being a viable option for the average gamer as Valve is basically strong arming it to be, on Steam Deck you’re not exactly doing PC gaming any good deliberately installing Windows on it. SteamOS just works.
I also think you’re very misguided in thinking it won’t have any return to Valve. Microsoft has to be looking at Google Play Store and whatever the Apple Store is called with a lot of envy with how they’ve managed to lock the entire ecosystem under their stores. This is the end result for Windows as well and its likely anti-competetive clauses are a very bad sign for a company like Valve. Looking back I’m actually impressed just how far back Valve saw this happening. Decoupling PC gaming in its entirety from Microsoft’s vendor lock-ins is in the best interest of all of the companies in the gaming industry, but it takes a rich private company like Valve to start doing the hard work for long term benefits instead of always chasing the short term profits.
Even if tomorrow Microsoft launched something that pulled ahead of SteamOS, it would still be in the gamers’ best interest to stick with the open platform. With a consistent, large userbase on an open platform it will eventually eclipse anything Microsoft could ever muster.
Valve is doing this for strategic reasons and also because they wanted to start the handheld PC market (Steam Deck). Strategic reasons: Microsoft could at any point buy several important gaming studios or distributors, distribute a lot of games (maybe exclusively) via their own store (they even announced that several years ago, but they didn’t do it in the end). MS could even implement small things which make Steam perform worse on Windows, as its 100% controlled by MS. If you compete directly with Microsoft on the Windows platform, you will eventually lose because MS can do some very tiny tweaks which happen to make your product be more annoying or slower to use than Microsoft’s own. That way they’ll still fly under the radar for anti-competitive behavior. So Valve has to ensure that their main business model (selling/distributing games on Steam) remains future-proof, and that means more independent from Microsoft’s agenda. To do this, they need to push a fully neutral, but viable alternative to Windows for gaming. Which is Linux.
Linux, currently, cannot handle everything Windows can unfortunately.
I mean it could, companies just don’t port their software because there’s not enough market share to justify it. And there’s not enough market share because the software isn’t there. and the software isn’t there…
Yep exactly ahah, I feel linux will forever be stuck in this loop.
I at least suspect there will be a community porting some variant of SteamOS to the more popular handhelds.
ChimeraOS already works on pretty much anything.
“Works” to varying degrees. It usually needs to be tailored to the hardware.
Tailored by the user or the dev? What type of hardware? I have not had to do anything special yet on any of the devices I have installed it on.
By the developers. You can’t just slap it on anything and expect it to work properly. When the Ally was first released there was no sound and no WiFi. You have to use the “experimental” version to get it running kind of okay on there.
Well yeah, the Ally has somewhat “bespoke” hardware. Not to say that the dev didn’t have to do some extra work to even get it working on Aya devices, but at this point in time, I think my statement of “pretty much” anything still stands. Though given the fact that this thread is about the “future” default, maybe I shouldn’t be talking about “this point in time”.
SteamOS has been out on Steam Deck for 18 months, but still no general release in sight. I wouldn’t hold my breath. I think we’ll just have to continue to make do with the likes of ChimeraOS/Nobara.
Is there some specific feature that SteamOS brings to the table that people are looking for? So far as I know, a stripped down installation Debian or Ubuntu (Valve likes to base their packages off of Ubuntu) with an Xserver script that directly launches steam in big picture mode ought to create roundabout the same experience I would think.
SteamOS 2.x was based on debian, but that hasn’t been updated in years. The Steam Deck launched with SteamOS 3, which is actually built on top of arch and is much more akin to Manjaro. As for your question, it’s mostly the “game mode”, which uses IIRC Wayland and wraps games inside gamescope which provides a bit more control in the form of controlling frame rate, resolution, etc externally, but regardless, that can and has been achieved in custom distros. I think the main appeal of SteamOS honestly is the package of an immutable OS optimized for running games on steam. It prevents non-linux users from breaking things and tries to make it feel more like a “console” with a “desktop mode” (KDE Plasma) and “app store” (ala flatpaks). I’ve toyed with the idea of running it or similar on my gaming PC but always run into the difficulty of Nvidia drivers on Linux.
I had no idea they switched distros. Or ran Wayland for that matter! Truly it’s the future. But that’s a good point, being able to say on the “box” that is specifically runs SteamOS certainly brings about a level of consumer and investor assurance.
As far as the nvidia drivers go. Only advice I can offer is that I’ve never had any sort of auto install, package based install, or any sidestepping of the default installation of the driver work for me. It’s always borked. The only reliable method I’ve found is the old school drop into the line terminal, shutdown all GUI, and running the nvidia provided install script (which sucks, I know).
Yeah, I’ve gotten Nvidia drivers working, but always with issues in performance or things like Wayland not working and I eventually decide “that was fun to play around with, back to Windows”. Specifically the whole immutable OS thing for me is nice too. Linux is my OS of choice for development work, but it’s so easy to screw things up when trying to make games work nicely and my ideal “it just works” gaming machine can ignore the OS entirely (looking at you, Windows random forced reboots or virus scans), so having big single updates rather than individual packages and no risk of trying to get WINE etc up and running breaking something with the OS is nice. Not to mention, it’s much harder for a small child to brick it than a normal Linux distro or even Windows for that matter. Fedora Kinonite is on my radar for a future distro because of this, I just haven’t decided if I prefer the Fedora ecosystem over Ubuntu or Manjaro.
I hope NVK makes Nouveau a viable daily driver for NVIDIA users, they’re already running games, and Zink is making large improvements.
Then we can finally get the hell off of Xorg and leave it almost entirely to Xwayland.
For me it’s the fact that it just works. I don’t want to fiddle with Wine or bottles or any if that. I pick the game and launch it, never have i had to do more than that.
True. There is an unofficial release - HoloIso - which uses Valves packages but is not quite complete. Also manufacturers may be able to get access as Valve previously has been keen on getting other manufacturers to buy into it’s hardware attempts (e.g. Steam PCs previously, and VR now) but I’d expect the manufacturers to be making a big deal of it if they were launching a SteamOS handheld. It seems Valve want to keep exclusivity on Steam Deck for now (which makes some sense given how successful it’s been)
(which makes some sense given how successful it’s been)
It really doesn’t make sense, considering how small the hardware profit margins probably are, if any.
What would make sense is making the Steam-first OS open to be installed on any device.
It doesn’t matter if there’s no hardware profit margin if the end result is, as it seems to be, more people buying more games from steam. That’s no different than most console manufacturers anyways - so far as I know, none of them are in it to make profit off the hardware itself, just the exclusivity.
Granted, Steam Deck still let’s you run non-steam games and connect other launchers, but even so most people will buy from steam for it regardless.
the end result is, as it seems to be, more people buying more games from steam.
This is the end result of releasing their software, not selling more hardware.
Oh look, you stumbled on to the point. Valve would benefit from making a more console-like pc (a la the steam boxes from yesteryear) because it could get more people into the valve ecosystem. There are people who buy consoles simply because they offer the simplicity of buying a prebuilt thing that you don’t need to fudge around with and comes integrated with everything you need to run the games.
I didn’t “stumble onto” anything. Valve would benefit much more from simply releasing their operating system for universal hardware use than they ever would from hardware sales. That was my point from the beginning.
I’d love to see the return of Steam Machines. I loved the concept back in 2014 but Linux gaming absolutely wasn’t ready back then. A first party Valve Steam Machine could be a great entry point for many potential new PC gamers.
I’d be curious what kind of APU they’d cook up for a Steam Machine because putting in a full GPU isnt economically viable right now.
I’d possibly argue a full GPU could be detrimental. Maybe best to aim for Steam Deck performance in a home console but with the potential for a GPU installation later on. Obviously being a home console would allow for a more power hungry but performamt APU. Maybe they could attain Series S performance whilst being a much more open platform.
I agree. Full GPU doesn’t seem likely. It’d be great if AMD and Valve could work together to make a decent desktop APU without the usual compromises, maybe one with M2 like performance. Even better if they could later repurpose a variation of that design to make consumer chips that fit into the AM5 socket.
Maybe Valve can also look into shared memory designs where its one unified pool for both CPU and GPU. Pretty sure Linux has support for that.
It would be a good thing. Gaming on windows has been a shit experience since everything after windows 7. I don’t want to have to manually(or scriptedly) remove candy crush installer icons among other bloat shit every time I install the os just for a basic clean experience that still spies in me.
What are these many new handhelds you speak of
Ayaneo 2 is one apparently. ROG Ally is one. And there are at least 8 more: https://retrododo.com/best-handheld-gaming-pcs/
They are way more powerful but makes less use of the power. Also way more expensive most of the time. Valve actually sells the Deck at a loss and hope to get it back on games. It’s currently the best value for money.
Valve actually sells the Deck at a loss and hope to get it back on games.
this was probably true for the first months but the hardware parts of the steam deck got cheaper over time in particular any flash chips (RAM/SSD) aswell as the older AMD APU
probably the reason why Valve discounts it up to 20% in sales sometimes
Doesn’t the ROG Ally just use Windows?
Steam OS is awesome. I consider myself a tech savvy person, yet I never felt the need to tinker with my Steam Deck to run retro games or emulate stuff since I have it (1+ year)
The library of games running natively or with minimal controller changes is so big I will probably not run out of games and Im playing more than ever.
SteamOS’s UI is incredible. It’s not always easy for a UI to be feature rich while also being intuitive and easy to use, but Valve did a wonderful job. I love pulling up the Quick Menu to check the battery and time or tweak a setting without needing to pause the game or go back to the Home Menu.
I thought it would but it’s been over a year and still no one is shipping with it.
Harsh take, these companies have very little in-house software talent and are too cheap to pay for it. That’s why they ship garbage Windows software instead.
Eventually SteamOS could work out of the box but currently requires some understanding.
What I mean is, I thought for sure Valve would make the OS available to third parties. Maybe even work with them to get it running properly on their hardware.
IMO Steam OS is the “Windows” for handhelds. Sure there will be lots of variants of Linux with custom skins (hell even Windows itself). However, I think Steam OS has already established itself as a comfortable default for most people due to how optimized the UI is for handhelds and the fact it works out of the box for most PC games without any tinkering 🙂
ETA Prime always referring to “Steam Deck OS” and claiming that’s the name it’s widely known by is so cringe.
I like it, if only because theres a lack of OS’s that boot with controller support.
Only possible if all handheld machines have transparent hardware designs, i.e., all electronic components inside are known, have open source drivers and do not rely on third-party proprietary drivers or reverse engineering. This is due to Linux itself rely heavily on open source software and doesn’t play well with proprietary parts (take Nvidia GPU for example, every person who has it in their Linux machine knows it causes headache once in a while). Unfortunately, so far only Valve’s Steam Deck has a hardware specs that satisfy this requirement. The other ones more or less suffer from closed source components
Not really true. You don’t necessarily need open source drivers for Linux to play well. There was actually a period where NVidia was the better option on Linux because their proprietary drivers were better than the alternatives. If the company cares to manage those drivers they will work well. That said, it looks like AMD has embraced FOSS and NVidia finally opened their other drivers, so things are looking up at least. Having binary blobs for certain shit is not ideal either, but I’ll take it if it means more people will move to Linux and everything else will still be open.
Probably not while ARM handhelds are so popular. I think that it’s a good choice for intel and AMD for now, though.
This is a weird comment to me, SteamOS could have an ARM build, Valve would just need to release a ARM build of their distro (and Steam for Linux).
There’s definitely ARM for lots Linux software and distros, so assuming Valve hasn’t done anything particularly weird, aside from the build infrastructure, that’s probably not even that big of a job.
They would then also “just” need to develop and ship an x86 to arm translation layer, like Rosetta 2.
There are several other emulators that already exist for Linux (that they could contribute to/improve).
Ignoring that for a second though, this is a problem for Windows handhelds as well. If Valve was going to build up the ARM “PC” gaming market though, they’d need to start with making ARM Steam builds available.
Edit: I’m guessing those ARM handhelds aren’t making Valve money and are probably more for emulation themselves (i.e., for Valve to do this, they’d need things in place to where it would benefit them via sales in Steam).
Wine already existed but it took many years to get Proton to where it is now, and it’s still not perfect. I doubt they would want to start all over now that things are finally working.
I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that they’d start over. Wine isn’t an emulator and doesn’t emulate instructions. Something like qemu-user would presumably run Wine (which would itself be running the game).
In a way, Proton/Wine is a much harder problem because there’s so much in terms of API that needs implemented.
