I’ve seen around 3 occasions of that this week, altho I have never seen anything like it before.
if I remember correctly they were:
- smack talking a mod (FlyingSquid) for saying not to report the same comment twice, when they were different comments, and the report was spam
- someone comparing .world with .ml in politics (as in there was a comment saying "this post will be overrun with .ml people, and then a comment going “but you are from .world”) (Maybe Im part of the problem? I have been called out for being a fascist because I questioned the “puching nazis” theme)
- one more which I can’t remember.
Anyways, what is all that about? Are people really starting to hate on 50% of the lemmy population because of their instance?
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.world runs into issues because it’s overwhelmingly liberal and the mods are anti-Marxist on a platform built by Communists and dominated by leftists in general. They also defederated from the major Marxist instances. Lemmy.world is largely a replication of Reddit as well, so people leaving Reddit also don’t necessarily want that either.
It’s also by far the largest instance, not necessarily in a good way. It tends to dominate the fediverse and thus their mods and admins have an outsized voice, even if federation helps combat that issue.
Plenty of people like Lemmy.world, you’ll get different answers if you asked on another community like Lemmy.ml’s AskLemmy.
you’ll get different answers if you asked on another community like Lemmy.ml’s AskLemmy.
I suggested OP to do so yesterday, they did then removed their post, not sure why
Communists? Really? There is quite a gap between being leftist (which in itself is a term that generalizes multiple ideological position and political views. Look to my home country Denmark and see how many left leaning parties exists. None of them are Communists btw). Sorry if this comes off as arrogant, but are you from the US? I ask because I often see US citizen use this overgeneralization and seem lack knowledge on the difference between e.g. socialism and communism.
Lemmy’s two main developers are communists so it’s a “platform built by Communists” just like @Cowbee@lemmy.ml said.
I’m a Marxist-Leninist, I’ve read over 2 dozen books on Marxism, you can check my comment history if you want. The lead developers of Lemmy are Communists.
Also, the Nordics are Social Democracies, not Socialist.
2·2 hours agoI think there is like one party in Folketinget that is even slightly left, Enhedslisten.
My biggest problem with .world is that people will just make up whatever they want about the out-group and everyone just believes it without question and with no interest in examining the
evidence.It’s a toxic element of the site’s culture that encourages circle-jerking and the automatic dismissal of opposing viewpoints while making intelligent and informed discussion impossible.The moderation is also pretty heavy-handed with censorship and things get removed for “misinformation” pretty frequently just because the mods disagree with it. You don’t have to go very far back in the modlog right now to find removed posts from Cowbee and Alcoholicorn, despite both backing up their arguments with published books from respectable authors. It’s best to avoid engaging with the mods at all, I got banned from World News because a mod couldn’t defend their position so they just banned me. There’s a pretty clear bias towards NATO and the US.
But like I said my main issue is the first point, and I’ll stop judging .worlders when I start to see people actually ask for evidence when someone says, “I saw a bunch of tankies eating kittens” instead of just blindly accepting it as fact because it’s about an out-group.
I don’t find any issues on .world. Yeah some people say dumb stuff, but that’s just the world isn’t it? I am sure there are others who think the same of me. It’s whatever, some people getting mad at .world are just mad they’re not in an echo chamber.
But other people complaining about trolls are right, there’s just no place for that. Report, block and move on. It’s not your job to educate anyone.
Easy, because it’s often home to some extreme and often bizarre opinions. It often makes Reddit seem civil and intellectual.
In the last month alone, I’ve seen:
- Downvotes for suggesting that if you were to ask Big Tech to split, they’ll probably just split in a way that keeps them aligned, while cutting unprofitable chunks out.
- Downvotes for suggesting that TikTok shouldn’t be banned for being “stupid”, given that most social media is stupid, and people often said that about the shit that many of us grew up with.
- Just endless nonsense about how you cannot print with Windows, like at all, while Linux (never stating a distro) “just works”. It’s clear that so many people in the tech community on lemmy.world haven’t used Windows for years.
- Crap about LLM’s and how providers like OpenAI are “dumb”, despite the fact that many use grounding and expert systems to guide towards correctness (literally what I work on in my job).
- Being so US-centric AND contrarian that you regularly see posts around how “Europe is so much better for this”, when Europe is a fucking continent with separate countries and their own laws/customs.
- Posts about how we can get “normies” to use Lemmy
None of the above would happen on Reddit. They’re all signs of communities that are detached from reality, so much so that on Mastodon there are several posts from people that have called Lemmy (basically meaning the “main” instance) out as being toxic and unfriendly compared to other fediverse offerings.
I disagree with your statement about not seeing this type of behaviour on Reddit and it appearing civil and intellectual comparison.
I used Reddit for around 15 years, and had never seen the above. Sure, it was toxic in other ways, but Lemmy in 2024 is basically 2004 Slashdot - just replace Bush with Trump, and it’s basically the same shit about how Microsoft is evil, anyone that doesn’t use Linux is a moron, and arguing about Star Trek.
Based, as the youngsters says.
Thank you for the detailed answer
I’d say the biggest criticism is that it’s the largest instance, and is also a “general purpose” instance, which sort of takes away from the main goal of the fediverse. When 90% of content comes from one instance, it opposes the goal of decentralization.
I chose lemdro.id because it’s nice and fast, the admins are very good, and its main topic is around technology/software which I like
I’m on db0 and we have lots of subs aren’t on .world. So it possible but you are right in general.
I don’t think the existence of large instances is in itself strictly antithetical to decentralization. The network effect makes them inevitable.
The power in the fediverse is everyone has a standard toolset to interact with the entire fediverse. Most people won’t, and that’s okay. The important thing is that, should larger communities become too oppresive as they gentrify, replacing them is a cheap decision, as you and everyone like-minded with you can squad up and leave at any time and lose nothing as the standard tooling of the platform facilitates that migration. You have mobility in the fediverse, and that permits choice to those who seek it.
This will stop being true once the larger instances start augmenting their experiences with proprietary nonsense. Features that only work there, that you can invest into and become dependant on, that you’d have to give up if you leave.
The day that happens will be the day that chunk of the Fediverse dies. Or, well, it won’t die, it will probably flourish and do very well. But it won’t be the Fediverse anymore. It will just be another knee-high-fence-gated community, that happens to run on Fediverse tech.
Thank you for your work on Photon!
There’s a “civility” rule that frowns upon accurately identifying given users as belonging to certain groups
I want you all to know that I’m happy you’re here, cis het white male frat boy from old wealth with an ivy league education or a neorospicy gay trans Jewish anarcho-communist and everything else out there.
While I won’t judge you on your instance, I will judge you on your ability to be a good neighbor. I’m always glad to see humility, kindness, empathy, comradery, etc. on display.
“We must therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate intolerance”
Karl Popper
It’s the Reddit people.
Reddit pereon here. After over a year (I think, didn’t check) on Lemmy I still don’t understand the details about how works. I’m pretty busy, and it works to get me my news and such, so it wasn’t important to understand how it does so.
But now I’m inspired, thanks for that. I will look into changing servers, finding something that better fits my interests and such. I may even perhaps learn something in the process. Keeping the network decentralized is important, and I can do my part.
You can just create another account in another instance and run them side by side in a singular app. Switching back and forth is simple. I have a couple, reasons can vary, one would be that .world decided to take pirating communities off, to protect themselves. Whether they needed to or not, doesn’t matter, it’s their choice. I just hop to another instance to see those, but most of the content will be the same for me across instances because I haven’t hunted to much for new subs. Probably should eventually.
It’s for porn, isn’t it?
Haha nah, when I first got to Lemmy I created an account on .ml, then .ca, made one on hexbear to understand who they were, one in world, and finally one on dbzero. Figured it couldn’t hurt to find a community of people that was nice. Oh wait, forgot fedia.io when I wanted to figure out what they meant by seeing upvotes/downvotes and who was making them so I could understand more about the interworking of the instances.
Mostly I use world and dbzero now in Jerboa, fedia.io opens in the mbin app, so I haven’t used it much. I kind of forgot about it till now.
You can easily export and import your subscriptions from the settings menu, so that makes changing instances quite easy
It’s a shame that there isn’t functionality for a full account port, including comments and posts.
That can easily be abused to overload instances with a lot of content. It’s also technically challenging due to the way comments are posts are linked
Mastodon does not offer it either:
Mastodon currently does not support importing posts or media due to technical limitations https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/
You can link to your former profile from your bio
Their for the tip.
Imo the best mods/admins are the ones I don’t have to interact with and oh boy did I interact with the admins of .world
Nice way to phrase it 😄
Its an incredibly pro US biased instance despite not being hosted in the US and having a .world domain.
Greatest hits are politics@lemmy.world forbidding non-US topics and of course news@lemmy.world and its bias check bot according to which every non US media is left wing biased.
Both should be blocked… It is DNC komissars run them subs
God that fucking bot.
The bot itself is only mildly offensive, but the fieflord bot-love is just repugnant.
About a month ago news did a “feedback about the bot” thing, in which they declared undying love for the bot above all things and declared any input other than breathless support for the bot to be vote manipulated misinformation.
There were about 3 mods involved, all contradicting each other, and themselves, very condescending, and very sooky and sulky. “One of the mods almost resigned over this!” kind of stuff.
You had to start every comment with “look I know you guys are doing your best and investing all your free time as volunteers but…”
To be fair, considering the right wing hellscape our (US) Overton window overlooks the bias bot might actually have a point.
The bot is bad and jonsjava is a real piece of shit just by themself.
Oh no. Just no. We’ve found more than enough cases of bias to call it unreliable at best and a cover for washing conservative sources at the worst.
What is this the third time I’ve agreed with you on something? See, common ground.
The bot posts in world news which allows non us news.
It not trying to criticize the right wing bias of political discourse it’s trying to normalize it and apply it to non US issues and media.
I was simply telling a joke, but point well taken.
I don’t hate LW, I even regularly post to a few LW communities. The sysadmins do a good job. There are a few debatable moderation decisions, but those are usually documented on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com
The main issues I have with it is
- centralization of communities coupled with the current federation implementation creating 7-days delay for instance like aussie.zone (see !fedimemes@feddit.uk for a meme and discussion on that topic)
- their communities being the default means they can take controversial decisions and impact a topic for everyone until an alternative community emerges. See all the debates with the Media Bias Fact Checker bot, which in the end got removed from !world@lemmy.world (!globalnews@lemmy.zip for an alternative) but apparently it still on !politics@lemmy.world
- another consequence of centralization is impact of their being unavailable. People here might remember August 2023 when LW was under consistent DDoS attack, it was barely usable. This prevented a third of Lemmy total users to use Lemmy. Should they face a similar issue in the future, most of the Lemmy communities would be unusable.
Another point I haven’t seen mentioned is that they are still federated with Threads: https://fedipact.veganism.social/
They are the last large instance which still is.
It’s the most toxic instance I’ve ventured into (and admittedly have this account on). People spread lies and vitriol here about as much as Twitter and Reddit.
Ha! See?
What lies are said about Twitter?
That it isn’t called Twitter ;)
Not “about Twitter” but “about as much as Twitter”
Yeah that makes more sense when I re-read it. I was tired, I know there is basically subs mocking the abuses on Reddit, but didn’t know of one for Twitter, so I figured I’d ask. Elon is on to many posts for sure, so they could have just meant any technology sub being used to talk about his crazy.
Because it’s bad.
Not surprised this is coming from an ml user one bit
.world is the biggest instance and therefore a prime choice for trolls to create accounts. Most of the trash posts I’ve seen lately are from brand new users on lemmy.world
I am equally suspicious of brand new lemmy.world users as I am of veterans of lemmy.ml. Older accounts on .world are usually pretty normal.
This is why I chose lemmynsfw. No one doubts our intent
Your comment has been noticed and new bots are inbound. Close your doors.
I want to upvote you, but your tally is at 69 right now.
A big number of instances don’t federate with lemmynsfw though, so there’s a lot of users who don’t see the messages of the users from that instance.
Thank the gods.
Also no downvotes :)
How dare you call me normal good sir.
I like to think of myself as normal lol
I’m here because kbin.social died and this was my next oldest account
Haven’t heard of the news. Do you mind telling me what happened to kbin?
The developer and admin, Ernest, went through a rough patch in his life. Development and server upkeep fell off during this time, and it wasn’t picked back up again. I don’t think anyone’s heard from him in a long while now, but I don’t really know.
My twin, I was on kbin.social as well
I moved to fedia.io because it is basically kbin.social, but working.
I probably would have gone there, but I didn’t want to make another new account, so I just ended up falling back to one I already had.
I moved to kbin.earth (which later migrated to mbin).
Glad to hear kbin/mbin is still alive. Any good communities/“magazines” there I should check out?
I tried fedia.io, but it’s mobile website design is pure ass. It’s nice on my tablet, where there’s more room for the design to breathe a bit…but smooshed together on the cell phone layout, nothing makes sense. I want to like it, but I’m only on my tablet like 20% of the time. Cell phone is my main use.
There is an app: https://github.com/jwr1/interstellar/releases/tag/v0.6.0
Good to hear you found something that works for you. Personally, I’ve had no problems browsing on phone, though every right sidebar being in the top-left hamburger menu took a while to get used to
lemmy.world is popular, which has its pros and cons. At least you didn’t pick hexbear lol
My first account in this place was on .ml because it was only them and beehaw at the time, and I ended up deleting it once controversy popped up lol
In my experience (hexbear and .ml instances excluded) the majority of trolls I encounter seems to be from either infosec.pub or blahaj.zone
I usually see them from ee or sh.it.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Those blasted canadians.
A lot of this boils down to consequences of lemmy.world being the largest instance: typical Reddit users beeline for it, trolls go there, larger comms so more frequent issues with moderation, people who fail to distinguish between “we shouldn’t concentrate our activity into the largest instance” and “largest instance bad! EDIT WOW THANKS FOR LE GOLD TO LE KNEE KIND STRANGER!”, so goes on.
EDIT WOW THANKS FOR LE GOLD TO LE KNEE KIND STRANGER!
Giving me fucking flashbacks
Back when reddit* was just starting to fall to shit, I had already been dipping my toes in the mastodon water, and while I really liked the instance I was on it did not have enough people on it to properly surface good collections of off node traffic.
Knowing that Mastodon had the problem, I didn’t dick around with smaller nodes. To be honest it’s still a fight if you’re on a node with only a handful of people, you have to do something to mitigate the lack of community traffic in the face of lacking discoverability.
People are doing that here though - e.g. the user Blaze made accounts on basically every instance, and subscribed to every community. This gets around the limitation where at least one user of an instance must subscribe to a community before it will even so much as show up for others to also subscribe. Really the developers should have made better automation so that this was not necessary, but… anyway it works, for now:-).
(If true) that’s actually really terrible for federation performance, particularly because lemmy doesn’t do batch synchronization. So basically every comment, post, like, and community is being sent to all Lemmy servers as individual sequential requests. That’s a lot to handle.
Supposedly that will change with v0.19.6 (A recent discussion about that here: https://feddit.org/post/3524876), but yeah it’s causing smaller instances such as Aussie.Zone to have delays of over 7 days.
I also expressed disbelief that this info would not be bundled somehow - at least put together a package for everything that happened across the entire instance in one second, or one minute could be far better, for servers that can’t handle the per-second traffic?
Well that’s good!
And right, I had the exact same thought… It seems like the lemmy devs are not highly experienced web developers, at least not that have worked on anything at the scale lemmy became after the Reddit exodus.
I thought at first that everything was simply slow to develop bc of using the Rust programming language.
Now I hold great excitement for the upcoming projects like Sublinks, Piefed, Mbin, and Tesseract (that one is more a front-end UI for whatever backend protocol). But Lemmy still has all the effort put into it in the past so it is ahead for that reason at least.
I’m eyeing Piefed and Sublinks. I’ve done a lot with Python and Java… Maybe at some point I’ll find the time to contribute more than the bit of PR review I’ve done for Sublinks.
I’m also watching mastodon, particularly because they’re working on groups… And I don’t mind the Twitter style, I’ve just come to prefer following topics over people… And hashtags just get flooded with low effort crap.
That’s nice! ☺️
I feel like ActivityPub implemented federation in a really weird way, and that’s what causes problems like @linearchaos@lemmy.world is reporting, or the issue that Blaze is addressing through multi-accounting. Perhaps we shouldn’t be sharing content across instances but only credentials.
For example. If you’re registered to instance A, and B federates with A, then B would let you post from your A account as if you were registered to B. Then let the retrieval of the content of different instances up to the front-end, instead of mirroring it.
No, the whole point for the federation is to share the content. For one, it allows redundancy so that if a rogue mod or admin decided to delete a bunch of stuff, then every other instance still retains copies of what came from it.
But that said, having to keep everything up to the second, in batches of a single action, is extremely limiting. If I downvote someone with an accidental button press, then undownvote them, then upvote - that could have been just one net interaction to send, but instead it is three.
Redundancy is better handled through specialised mirrors, similar in spirit to reveddit. That would be even more transparent than the current system - as the mirrors could translate actions like content removal into content highlighting, so it would stick out like a sore thumb*. This would also throw the burden associated with redundancy (transmission, storage, removal of clearly illegal content) into a few machines, instead of the whole network.
I’m aware that it’s a weaker form of federation than the current one but, as long as the front-end handles simultaneous multi-account and merges the feeds of the instances that you’re registered to, it’s already addressing the main needs:
- users can see content from multiple places without registering individually to each
- users don’t need to see what they don’t want to
- content is still spread out, so no instance controls the whole
- admins still have control over who accesses their own instance (through defederation + banning).
*currently you can only find a piece of removed content if you know that it exists.
At a wild guess, it could literally be the communism?
No really, I’m serious: what you are describing sounds to me like there is a sense of “ownership”, as in an instance owns a community, whereupon everything else is lesser than the owner with respect to that particular content - e.g. the others “mirror” the content that is “owned” by the instance that the community is on. A master/slave relationship, in computer science terminology.
In contrast, ActivityPub sounds to me (caveat: I’ve never read the source) like everyone is equal, hence why every action is shared equally by all. A distributed burden. Except without the major traditional benefits of it being distributed - i.e. Aussie.Zone cannot simply connect to some other server instance with less physical distance between it and Lemmy.World, no it must go straight to the source, even when that results in a 7-day delay (and even that cutoff is only because things older than that simply get deleted).
On the other hand, there’s nothing stopping someone from not respecting the deletion requests, and instead highlighting that content, in the current Lemmy framework. It would definitely be a deviation from the standard codebase though. And therefore every time there’s an update or patch, there would have to be a merge event to keep that feature functional.
I wonder if the reason your idea is not done is bc it relies too much on “trusting” the client for security reasons? Although… tbf I’m not certain how much that would differ from how things are now.
I’m not sure if the analogy with communism holds well, as communism implies post-scarcity. Perhaps socialism - if you see the current AP protocol as the Soviet economy from 1918 to 22, my proposal is basically a Lenin style New Economic Policy: a step back (less federation) to take two steps forward later (federation growth).
As for the mirrors, secondary (as in backup) would be a good analogy; their main reason to exist would be to make admins+mods accountable. (“Why did you remove [content]? It’s within the rules, even if you disagree with it!”). And ideally it should be possible for a single mirror to work for multiple instances, specially smaller ones. In the meantime, the actual (non-mirror) instances would be on equal grounds.
In contrast, ActivityPub […]
As far as I know, as someone who didn’t read the source either, that’s accurate. aussie.zone is basically mirroring the content of federated instances, to service its users, then when some aussie.zone user posts something there the other instances mirror it.
On the other hand, there’s nothing stopping someone from not respecting the deletion requests, and instead highlighting that content, in the current Lemmy framework. It would definitely be a deviation from the standard codebase though. And therefore every time there’s an update or patch, there would have to be a merge event to keep that feature functional.
In theory, there isn’t. In practice:
- AFAIK this is not something that Lemmy or Mastodon were coded for. It’s unsupported so the person doing it would need to maintain their own fork of the relevant software.
- This becomes specially problematic once users from the non-deleting instance interact with content that, for other instances, has been deleted.
I wonder if the reason your idea is not done is bc it relies too much on “trusting” the client for security reasons? Although… tbf I’m not certain how much that would differ from how things are now.
If I had to take a guess, the reason why W3C, Lemmer-Webber and Prodromou created the AP the current way is because, while you’re raising a baby, you never know the growing pains that it’ll have as a teen.
Ease discovery of federated communities has been funded: https://join-lemmy.org/news/2024-09-11_-_New_NLnet_funding_for_Lemmy
Also, thank you for the comment above
Ease discovery of federated communities has been funded: https://join-lemmy.org/news/2024-09-11_-_New_NLnet_funding_for_Lemmy
That’s some great news! It’s great to see that the issues are being ironed out.
