• AlfredoBonannoFofana [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    Turned an imperialist monarchy where the majority of the population were illiterate into being the first nation of humans in space and defeating the Nazis within a few decades?

    Turning a country fresh from a century of humiliation in to the world’s largest economy by purchasing power parity and virtually eliminating poverty?

    Seems like it works to me

    • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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      1 year ago

      You hexbears and gradists are so bent on this autocratic ‘dictatorship of the prolitariat’ idea that you could almost replace all energy needs by just hooking up a dynamo to Marx turning around in his grave.

      • AlfredoBonannoFofana [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        We’re fully aware that DoTP is a transitory step in the path to full stateless classless communism, I’m just engaging with conceit the meme makes to dispute the point those who make ‘cOmMuNiSm oNlY wOrKs On PaPeR’ arguments think they’re making

        • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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          1 year ago

          I get it. My point is different. Communism has never been realized, therefore there’s nothing to say about it’s functionality.

            • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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              1 year ago

              That’s fine if you think that, but it’s not really communism, as defined by Marx.

              That’s the point, they are not communist states, just people misusing the name communism

                • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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                  1 year ago

                  Well in the full extend you could read das Kapital, or an abridged version of it.

                  But the remedy that he seeks is an international uprising against the possessive class and the dissolution of the power of capital. Unfortunately every ‘communist’ state is just an autocratic state role-playing communism. Sometimes with their own monarchy (north Korea) some more oppressive, some outright capitalist (China).

                  • ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    You realize that it’s called Marxism-Leninism correct? Because Lenin and by extension other writers expanded on this topic to clown on “communism purists” like you.

          • AlfredoBonannoFofana [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Communism has never been realized,

            Exactly, hence why those making ‘cOmMuNiSm oNlY wOrKs On PaPeR’ arguments and this meme are actually about socialist states which is what I am defending in my first comment, that is blatantly clear from context

            • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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              1 year ago

              Nah not really. I mean China is clearly blatantly capitalist since Deng Xiaoping. And there was little ownership of the means of production by the prolitariat in Soviet Russia.

              So not really communist.

              • AlfredoBonannoFofana [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                I’m not going to get into a pedantic debate with you about the exact labelling of the ideology of these states, what is important and you’re intentionally being obtuse about is that these systems differ(ed) from bourgeois western liberal ‘democracy’ and is the subject of the meme being discussed

              • ☭CommieWolf☆@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                And there was little ownership of the means of production by the prolitariat in Soviet Russia.

                What? What’s your source for this?

          • MCU_H8ER@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            We’re all aware of that. The transitionary step of socialism has had many well documented successes, along with setbacks and things to learn from.

            The issues with capitalism are also well known. Industrial capitalism does a good job at developing the productive forces, but neoliberal (financial) capitalism serves no purpose other than to funnell money to the very top of the economic elite.

            • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              The problem with those transitory step countries is that it has a ruling class with very different class interests and the same money funneling just like in a capitalist state which basically guarantees that they will never be socialist.

              • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                You see no difference in a government made to be a mediating entity between private interests where the source of power lies, and a government that’s self interested and is where power lies? You see nothing but a flattened “they both did taxes and the leadership class has privileges”?

                • FluffyPotato@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  No, taxes are quite helpful to maintain public infrastructure for example. What I’m saying is that every time one of those transitory governments have popped up the leadership ends up ruling the population with an iron fist and horrible corruption that has benefitted mostly the ruling party and rarely anyone else. Pretty much exactly like a capitalist state but with gulags and no voting.

                  • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    1 year ago

                    the leadership ends up ruling the population with an iron fist and horrible corruption that has benefitted mostly the ruling party and rarely anyone else

                    On the second point you’re so wrong it requires no discussion. In the 20th and 21st centuries the countries that had the greatest reduction of poverty in the world are the USSR and the PRC respectively. Whatever definition of ‘corruption’ you have, the fact that those governments not only benefited their people but benefited them more than any other nation on the planet is not a debatable point.

                    So what exactly do you mean “iron fist”? Are you from the US? Because if you’re saying it from the perspective of the most intrusive surveillance state in history and the largest police state in history, I feel like we’re going to have to sort our semantics.

                  • MCU_H8ER@lemmygrad.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    Pretty much exactly like a capitalist state but with gulags and no voting

                    That is a childlike (and false) understanding of the world. Please educate yourself.

                  • rarely anyone else

                    Like, the “iron fist” rule as you call it can be debated till the end of time, both the degree to which the characterization is true versus western propaganda/idealism as well as the degree to which it might be necessary to survive the omnipresent fascist and capitalist counterevolutionary movements, both external and internal.

                    Buuuuuut literacy rates, cost of living, infant mortality, income equality, life expectancy, gender equality, etc, these all tended to drastically improve in socialist states, compared to pre-socialism (and especially post-socialism when looking at the many states that were violently overthrown and liberalized).

      • ThereRisesARedStar [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Loling at the idea that “99.9 percent of the population should be able to participate in democracy but the class that’s been oppressing us shouldn’t for a decade or two during the transition” is “autocracy”