Yes this is fantasy but what you’re effectively stating here is that if you don’t get caught it’s not wrong. The same argument would justify groping a deep sleeper, do you think that’s not wrong?
No, not really. I’m saying that if there’s zero effect for the would-be victim, I can’t see them being wronged. I think time freeze is probably not the right scenario for this though. They’d be physically affected. Copying them in an simulation type thing is more along the lines of what I’d consider harmless.
Unfortunately for me, I feel like if I thought I could get away with something consequences free, I’d probably do it. I’m not proud of that aspect of my morality, but I’d be lying if I denied it.
That said, I remind myself that if I’m too ashamed to do it under the scrutiny of people, then it is 100% not something I’m doing. That goes for simulations as well. Because there is always a chance someone will find out… and frankly, I don’t think I could live with myself.
That’s a very honest and self reflective stance that I think a lot of people would agree with. I don’t think it’s a moral failing, much of morality is putting aside your basic instinct and desire in favor of your rational mind realizing what’s best for you and society at large.
People have empathy to varying degrees and it’s something that needs training just like any other skill. Acknowledging where you have gaps and working rationally around those gaps is how you become a moral person. I don’t think you were necessarily being hard on yourself but others feeling the same way might be so I figured I’d share this perspective.
Well thank you for that assurance. It’s a scary thing to admit to, especially when you see people around you who seemingly do not struggle with this sort of thing. The whole, “I don’t need a book/law to tell me what’s right or wrong,” are lucky in that respect.
I don’t think any individual is implicitly moral with regards to everything. I’m not suggesting everyone has the same hidden desires but I believe everyone has some instinctive behaviors and thoughts that they need to challenge rationally in some way or another. Philosophical frameworks for morality wouldn’t exist or be debated if it was unusual to need a rational framework for moral behavior.
Unless somehow every harm someone inflicted on another somehow affected themselves in the same way there’ll always be a selfish instinct that has to be overcome. If it was easy it wouldn’t be something to admire and respect as part of one’s character.
Nah, people will judge you for totally harmless shit. Their judgement doesn’t mean you’re wrong. People hide their gayness or niche religions under the everything of people and they should not have to.
Who said anything about rape? Also clearly you can figure out morality without it being external judgement. You’re coming at me with a chip on your shoulder.
You’re once again relying on the fact that someone won’t find out in order for you to feel that you’ve gotten away with it. That’s not a moral act, that’s an immoral act that has gone by unnoticed.
Maybe you’re not hurt by me jerking it to you but you’d be hurt by another violation of your identity like me impersonating you to call your mother names and hurt her feelings. Those are both violations of you, and they’re ways of using you as a means to a selfish end.
Philosophical moral frameworks which people tend to follow include the idea that human beings shouldn’t be used as a means to an end.
We can tweak your example to one where the simulation is of someone that doesn’t exist and there’d be even less to call into question, but maybe at that point you feel you wouldn’t get the same thrill… That thrill is a sign that you’re being immoral.
You’re probably young and will hopefully continue to develop mentally and emotionally and will learn empathy, but your views here are problematic.
I do get you’re trying to get at consent is key, but your argument is flawed in that using a simulated copy to insult one’s mom still brings a real person into it
Use a digital copy of me to hurt people, yeah I’d be upset
Use a digital copy of me as a sex toy? I’d be fine with that
Installing hidden cameras in a public toilet is harmless by that definition as long as they never get discovered, but would still be highly immoral. I don’t think you’ve thought this through. People’s right to decide what happens to their body extends to things like who can see it rather than just who can physically touch it.
Religious people all think there’s a god watching them 24/7 and seem fine with that. Those same religious people didn’t seem to think I should get to decide to keep my foreskin.
The thing about the bathroom camera is that it’s like content piracy, and I personally don’t really care to engage in business of that nature. If you’re selling it, I don’t want it. I’m not more likely to pay just because I didn’t get it for free.
I’m more concerned about the nature of law and enforcement in relation to this kind of privacy breaches. The law can and will act on shit, and they need to be as restrained as we can get them. I’m never worried about embarrassing myself around a rational thinker. I’m worried of embarrassing myself around irrational judgement from people who will hurt me or make my life worse. The only real situation where I’m not worried about being watched is by people who straight up cannot do anything with what they see. No talking, no sharing, etc… I don’t wanna hear distant snickers from people who know what I’ve put in my butt.
Yes this is fantasy but what you’re effectively stating here is that if you don’t get caught it’s not wrong. The same argument would justify groping a deep sleeper, do you think that’s not wrong?
No, not really. I’m saying that if there’s zero effect for the would-be victim, I can’t see them being wronged. I think time freeze is probably not the right scenario for this though. They’d be physically affected. Copying them in an simulation type thing is more along the lines of what I’d consider harmless.
Unfortunately for me, I feel like if I thought I could get away with something consequences free, I’d probably do it. I’m not proud of that aspect of my morality, but I’d be lying if I denied it.
That said, I remind myself that if I’m too ashamed to do it under the scrutiny of people, then it is 100% not something I’m doing. That goes for simulations as well. Because there is always a chance someone will find out… and frankly, I don’t think I could live with myself.
Right or wrong, that’s my take on it.
That’s a very honest and self reflective stance that I think a lot of people would agree with. I don’t think it’s a moral failing, much of morality is putting aside your basic instinct and desire in favor of your rational mind realizing what’s best for you and society at large.
People have empathy to varying degrees and it’s something that needs training just like any other skill. Acknowledging where you have gaps and working rationally around those gaps is how you become a moral person. I don’t think you were necessarily being hard on yourself but others feeling the same way might be so I figured I’d share this perspective.
Well thank you for that assurance. It’s a scary thing to admit to, especially when you see people around you who seemingly do not struggle with this sort of thing. The whole, “I don’t need a book/law to tell me what’s right or wrong,” are lucky in that respect.
I don’t think any individual is implicitly moral with regards to everything. I’m not suggesting everyone has the same hidden desires but I believe everyone has some instinctive behaviors and thoughts that they need to challenge rationally in some way or another. Philosophical frameworks for morality wouldn’t exist or be debated if it was unusual to need a rational framework for moral behavior.
Unless somehow every harm someone inflicted on another somehow affected themselves in the same way there’ll always be a selfish instinct that has to be overcome. If it was easy it wouldn’t be something to admire and respect as part of one’s character.
Why should I put aside my feelings to protect someone else’s feelings who aren’t even gonna feel them for not knowing?
I mean, I could see doing stuff like stealing an awful lot of money from large multinational corporations.
Stockpiling gold, jewelry, and valuables from predatory pawn shops and stuff like that.
I wouldn’t have a lot of personal grief over the theft of property but I would have to draw the line where it comes to interfering with people.
I wouldn’t use time stopping powers to rape anyone or to kill my enemies or anything like that.
Might take a few politicians and like royally fuck with them until they are so unsettled that they can’t function in society anymore though.
Nah, people will judge you for totally harmless shit. Their judgement doesn’t mean you’re wrong. People hide their gayness or niche religions under the everything of people and they should not have to.
True when will rapists get to come out of the closet. What an insulting comparison.
Who said anything about rape? Also clearly you can figure out morality without it being external judgement. You’re coming at me with a chip on your shoulder.
that’s another interesting but debatable position. AI generated deepfakes of teens fall into that category.
So debate it.
An it harm none, do what ye will. Every day bullshit harms me dramatically more than any dude privately jerking it to me.
You’re once again relying on the fact that someone won’t find out in order for you to feel that you’ve gotten away with it. That’s not a moral act, that’s an immoral act that has gone by unnoticed.
Maybe you’re not hurt by me jerking it to you but you’d be hurt by another violation of your identity like me impersonating you to call your mother names and hurt her feelings. Those are both violations of you, and they’re ways of using you as a means to a selfish end.
Philosophical moral frameworks which people tend to follow include the idea that human beings shouldn’t be used as a means to an end.
We can tweak your example to one where the simulation is of someone that doesn’t exist and there’d be even less to call into question, but maybe at that point you feel you wouldn’t get the same thrill… That thrill is a sign that you’re being immoral.
You’re probably young and will hopefully continue to develop mentally and emotionally and will learn empathy, but your views here are problematic.
I do get you’re trying to get at consent is key, but your argument is flawed in that using a simulated copy to insult one’s mom still brings a real person into it
Use a digital copy of me to hurt people, yeah I’d be upset
Use a digital copy of me as a sex toy? I’d be fine with that
Never use the word problematic again.
Oh no I upset the fragile boy
I’m a man, baby. But fragile is correct. Aren’t we all?
you would have fun in the USS callister then
What’s that?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Callister
basically an episode that plays into that idea of cloning someone’s consciousness into your own personal hell
Noooooo, the consciousness is the morality anchor! We don’t fuck with that!
I’m just talking about physical stuff.
Edit: I REALLY gotta get back into watching black mirror though.
the last season was kinda meh, but its generally pretty good still until then
Installing hidden cameras in a public toilet is harmless by that definition as long as they never get discovered, but would still be highly immoral. I don’t think you’ve thought this through. People’s right to decide what happens to their body extends to things like who can see it rather than just who can physically touch it.
Religious people all think there’s a god watching them 24/7 and seem fine with that. Those same religious people didn’t seem to think I should get to decide to keep my foreskin.
The thing about the bathroom camera is that it’s like content piracy, and I personally don’t really care to engage in business of that nature. If you’re selling it, I don’t want it. I’m not more likely to pay just because I didn’t get it for free.
I’m more concerned about the nature of law and enforcement in relation to this kind of privacy breaches. The law can and will act on shit, and they need to be as restrained as we can get them. I’m never worried about embarrassing myself around a rational thinker. I’m worried of embarrassing myself around irrational judgement from people who will hurt me or make my life worse. The only real situation where I’m not worried about being watched is by people who straight up cannot do anything with what they see. No talking, no sharing, etc… I don’t wanna hear distant snickers from people who know what I’ve put in my butt.