- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
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I really don’t wish to come across as a dick, but why are people so up in arms about a €1.50 annual fee for the PAL store? I mean, sure, there’s a principle and the rest of the world are getting Delta for free, but it’s €1.50. A year.
And that charge is only to cover Apple’s bullshit.
Seems like the complaint isn’t so much about the fee, it’s about the fact that Europeans have to use AltStore for this app, even though the AppStore has finally opened itself up to game emulation.
Agreed. While I agree that having alternative App Stores is a good thing, I’m not about to jump in myself and use the first one that comes along. I appreciate Apple’s drive for security and I want to see how things play out first.
That I can only use it for this app makes me want to just stick with my miyoo mini+ and not bother.
“Apple’s bullshit” wouldn’t be an issue if they just released it on the AppStore and forego the AltStore all together. The CTF does not apply if they distribute exclusively on the AppStore. CTF is only applicable if the developer chooses to opt in to the new business agreement and distribute their app outside of the AppStore.
Since they’ve already demonstrated the App qualifies for distribution in the AppStore, as shown with the rest of the worlds’ listing, there’s no reason for them to disable it in the EU and push it on to the AltStore. The only reason they needed it on the AltStore is because they know people won’t care enough to jump through any scare screens to install the AltStore if all they’ve got to offer is some clipboard management app that very few people care about. So, instead, they bicker about the CTF and try to convince people the fee is for “Apple bullshit”, when the act of putting it on AltStore actually ends up costs them and everyone else more. The cynics amongst us might even say this is in the end helping to line Apple’s pockets so the developer here is actually an Apple shill… hmmm maybe that’s a bit too far?
He’s most likely just leveraging Delta as a way to force EU people into the AltStore and this makes it yet another greedy person. We had the Apple tax, now we’ve the Riley Testut tax for Europeans. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
You’re probably partially right, he made the Altstore specifically for his emulator and since Apple doesn’t like people using other app stores they changed their own rules last second to allow them in, as there’s basically no downside of doing so.
The Altstore has plans to open up to other apps as well, but why not put your own apps on it, especially if they are the only ones currently available.
The “Riley Tax” as you called it is mostly just an Apple tax though and to pay for infrastructure. I don’t see him getting rich from that.
I believe everyone should read this: https://developer.apple.com/support/core-technology-fee/
The Core Technology Fee (CTF) is an element of the new business terms in the European Union (EU) (…) Developers can choose to remain on the App Store’s current business terms or adopt the new business terms for iOS apps in the EU. Developers can choose to remain on the App Store’s current business terms or adopt the new business terms for iOS apps in the EU.
The “Riley Tax” as you called it is mostly just an Apple tax though and to pay for infrastructure. I don’t see him getting rich from that.
I’m not saying he wants to profit from this (“greedy”), it’s all about pushing people into the AltStore. I don’t even believe the AltStore pricing is sustainable unlike he says on the announcement… he’s most likely have to increase the price later on once he gets more Apps over there.
It looks a lot like he just wanted to release the AltStore and for that he was forced to accept the “new terms”. This in turn lead to the current situation where Europeans have to pay more. He could’ve still done it and proceeded to publish Delta on the EU App Stores and charge the fee there instead of pushing AltStore down people’s throats. OR he could’ve not accepted the terms all together and distributed Delta for free on EU Stores / without being charged the CTF (losing AltStore in the process).
Another thing he could’ve done was release the AltStore under a different developer account so the Delta account could use the old terms (no Apple Tax) and the AltStore one would use the new terms.
Look, I was even okay with paying 0,50€, 1€ or 10€ for the App but only if it was distributed through the App Store. It would take care of the potential > 1M download CTF fee and he would profit as well. No harm there. What he did instead was to gatekeep the app from the App Store in order to force people into the AltStore. Forcing people into the AltStore and a yearly fee is at least less than ideal.
I agree. If anything this is going to put pressure on the EU DMA to crack down on Apple. Apple is using their position to effect competition in Europe and this is the result. Free elsewhere and costs money in the EU.
It does seem an odd decision to make the app free on the App Store, but a subscription on AltStore. I’m not sure what Riley’s angle is supposed to be here. With the rule change around emulators Delta could have been released worldwide on the App Store.
Is the subscription on AltStore meant as a protest? The argument could be that Apple’s policies towards alternative app stores force them to be more expensive than the App Store. Although as it stands it puts AltStore in a bad light to average consumer, who isn’t following the political shenanigans and just sees AltStore as more expensive.
There’s also the issues of commercialising emulation in general. A lot of people feel the best way for emulation projects to be sustainable and stay “under the radar” is to avoid commercialisation as much as possible. It’s a touchy subject especially after the recent events with Yuzu.
The angle is very clear: he’s leveraging Delta as a way to force EU people into the AltStore and this makes it yet another greedy person.
I wonder why people downvote this… I mean, yes, it covers apple‘s taxes, but it would be doable via the App Store, which he clearly avoids.
I downvoted it because it’s blaming the wrong entity; the real bad actor here is Apple.
The AltStore should be free and it should be available globally, but neither are possible thanks to Apple’s anticompetitive shenanigans.
Because…
- US User: get’s Delta for free from the App Store
- EU User: needs to install AltStore and pay a Tax €€€
The App was approved by Apple for distribution - meaning it can be distributed in ALL App Stores, the fact that it is only available on the US store is a solely the decision of Riley Testut, and complete bullshit.
Yes, I understand that. But it’s €1.50. What’s that, half a coffee, and ten minutes spent getting AltStore installed. I genuinely can’t work out why people seem so angry about it.
Where are you seeing people getting angry about the price and not the principle?
I suppose I’m just wondering why people are so angry even about the principle. Ultimately, Riley wants AltStore to be a success and that’s his prerogative. Delta is his app to distribute how he sees fit, and just as soon as alternative app stores are available outside the EU, you can bet that Delta will disappear from the regular App Store. And that’s fine. He doesn’t owe us anything.
In this example, the principle at stake is such a negligible cost (to the individual user) that it just doesn’t seem worth getting irate over it.
I don’t think people are losing their shit or anything. It’s an annoyance that leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouth knowing that every other geolocation can just install it like any other app. That’s a fair complaint.
Yes, I understand that. But it’s €1.50. What’s that, half a coffee
People are angry about it because you’ve Americans having an app for free and Europeans getting charged a yearly fee for the same thing. This is not much about the value, it’s about the principle and the gatekeeping.
and ten minutes spent getting AltStore installed.
This is the worst part of it all is the gatekeeping, why can’t he just sell the App for 1.50€ on the EU App Stores then? Why would we have to install his AltStore and pay a recurring fee to cover the potential CTF fee? Why not let people get the App from the store they want to use instead of forcing one way or another?
If you read my other comment here and the Apple terms, you’ll find out he’s only subject to the CTF in the first place because he decided he wanted to launch the AltStore, otherwise he would be able to launch in Europe for free without any CTF costs.
They have one other app on their store though: a clipboard manager that runs in the background somehow, which apparently wouldn’t/wasn’t allowed on the App Store.
You’d think they could just release Delta in the App Store and the other app in their marketplace then, but if you want to publish any of your apps via an alternative marketplace, you need to agree to the new EU-specific Apple terms for all your apps, whether or not they are distributed through the App Store. So the 50 cent core technology fee would still apply were Delta to be released on the EU App Store.
Some of you people get so salty because of your own cluelessness it’s sad.
What’s truly bullshit is Apple charging (and allowed to charge) what they call a core technology fee. I’d recommend pointing your frustration towards tcook@apple.com instead of one person trying to cover the cost they have and giving you an otherwise completely free emulator. You’re not entitled to get it for free, or at all.
Some of you people get so salty because of your own cluelessness it’s sad.
I believe you completely missed the point here and while what you said is correct, it isn’t totally accurate.
you need to agree to the new EU-specific Apple terms
This isn’t correct. You only have to agree if you plan do have access to the new features such as alternative app stores, web install and whatnot. The developers can keep operating as usual without being charged the CTF fee and without those features.
Read this: https://developer.apple.com/support/core-technology-fee/
The Core Technology Fee (CTF) is an element of the new business terms in the European Union (EU) (…) Developers can choose to remain on the App Store’s current business terms or adopt the new business terms for iOS apps in the EU. Developers can choose to remain on the App Store’s current business terms or adopt the new business terms for iOS apps in the EU.
He could’ve just decided not to accept to operate “under the new business terms for EU apps” and still be able to distribute a free App on the App Store without paying the CTF, as before.
Besides, even for those who accept the “new business terms” the CTF isn’t always applied:
What happens if I have fewer than one million first annual installs in the past 12 months? If you have fewer than one million first annual installs in the past 12 months, you won’t pay a Core Technology Fee that month.
He just wanted to release AltStore and for that he had to accept the “new terms” that lead to this situation". That’s a dick move either way but the truth is that he could’ve still done it and proceeded to publish Delta on the App Store and charge the fee there instead of pushing AltStore down people’s throats.
As I said before, I was even okay with paying for the App but only if it was distributed through the App Store. It would take care of the potential > 1M download CTF fee and he would profit as well. No harm there. What he did instead was to gatekeep the app from the App Store in order to force people into his AltStore.
What’s truly bullshit is Apple charging (and allowed to charge) what they call a core technology fee
While I agree with you there, before calling people clueless maybe you should do your research because the rest of your argument is kind of not the reality of the EU/CTF/App Store.
Did you read my post correctly? I wrote this in my comment:
[…] if you want to publish any of your apps via an alternative app marketplace, you need to agree to the new EU-specific Apple terms for all your apps, […]
And then you quote part of that sentence out of context, stating basically the same thing I was stating (in the full version of my sentence):
This isn’t correct. You only have to agree if you plan do have access to new features such as alternative app stores, […]
So my sentence is correct, as long as you quote the whole thing.
And - as I stated in my previous comment as well - the developer has another app besides Delta (called “Clip”) that isn’t allowed on the App Store, so they have to agree with the EU-specific terms to publish Clip via their marketplace, but this agreement in turn also affects Delta. That’s just how it works.
So sure, they could’ve decided to not agree to the new terms, but then they couldn’t have released Clip (or only via self-signed sideloading like before).
How am I wrong here?
So sure, they could’ve decided to not agree to the new terms, but then they couldn’t have released Clip (or only via self-signed sideloading like before).
They could’ve got around that in multiple ways. What you see a lot is people having multiple developer accounts with different Apps, you see this all around the App Store with major companies.
Another thing is, as I said, I know he “had” to agree to the new terms in order to have the AltStore BUT, why is he gatekeeping from the EU App Store then? Why can’t he distribute in both places and charge the 1.50€ on the EU App Stores?
The fee might be unfair but as you said in order to release Clip he had to accept it. Gatekeeping from the App Store is much worse, it’s his own decision and very bad taste one. C’mon we’re talking the guy who spend years bitching that Apple wouldn’t allow people to chose from where they get apps and now he’s the one forcing people into (his) single store? The more things change the more they stay the same.
They could’ve got around that in multiple ways. What you see a lot is people having multiple developer accounts with different Apps, you see this all around the App Store with major companies.
Sure they could’ve gone out of their way to create another developer account which also costs another yearly fee of 98,99€. I fail to understand why anyone would feel entitled enough to even consider the developer should pay that just so people can download a free/low price, completely optional app from an ever-so-slightly more convenient store front.
Another thing is, as I said, I know he “had” to agree to the new terms in order to have the AltStore BUT, why is he gatekeeping from the EU App Store then? Why can’t he distribute in both places and charge the 1.50€ on the EU App Stores?
They chose not to. Simple as that. I agree that they could distribute it in the EU App Store, but even then a subscription would be required to cover costs (after 1 million installs, which I wouldn’t be surprised if this app crosses that number somewhat quickly) as the core technology fee is per annual install, meaning it is reoccurring unless users uninstall the app.
Don’t forget the recent Yuzu lawsuit as well. While we’re not sure of the exact details of the settlement, part of what made Yuzu vulnerable to a takedown was the fact that they paywalled (beta versions of) the emulator. Commercializing Delta could potentially attract Nintendo lawyers for all we know. The current 1,50€ fee isn’t for the emulator, it’s for the AltStore itself.
The fee might be unfair but as you said in order to release Clip he had to accept it. Gatekeeping from the App Store is much worse, it’s his own decision and very bad taste one. C’mon we’re talking the guy who spend years bitching that Apple wouldn’t allow people to chose from where they get apps and now he’s the one forcing people into (his) single store? The more things change the more they stay the same.
You can also install it via the non-PAL AltStore or you can sideload it manually by signing the app manually, no store required. You could also create a US Apple ID to download the app from the App Store (remember how you suggested the developer could just get multiple developer accounts?).
Sure they could’ve gone out of their way to create another developer account which also costs another yearly fee of 98,99€.
So it’s not okay for the developer to create another another that costs < 100€ but it’s okay for him to say that the CTF may bankrupt him? Like he did on his blog post? It would’ve been way cheaper and risk free for him to get another account than what he’s doing.
I agree that they could distribute it in the EU App Store, but even then a subscription would be required to cover costs
As I said before, I was okay paying for the App on the EU Stores, but the gatekeeping is bad taste.
You can also install it via the non-PAL AltStore or you can sideload it manually by signing the app manually, no store required.
Yes and then I’ve to refresh the App every 7 days…
You could also create a US Apple ID
There have been multiple people reporting that after iOS 17.4 you can’t do this anymore. Seems Apple applied more geolocation specific rules not only for EU users abroad but also the opposite.
Works fine from my very limited testing - although the I only game I had on hand was Grimace’s Birthday! ROMs can be loaded straight from the Files app.
Or via the new AltStore PAL for EU users.
Or via the AltStore tax for EU users.
Can’t find it on the italian App Store :(
It’s only on the AltStore in Europe.
Yes, because the developer was a dick.
I didn’t see this coming but I’m glad. I’d like to see right to repair legislation that includes software - basically the user needs a pathway to gain root access for any computerized device. Print an SSH key in the user manual or something.
Does the Alt Store version of Delta do anything different? It would be dope if that version made it easier to find and install old ROMs.
If the Alt Store version contained additional functionality that Apple wouldn’t approve, that would help me to justify the Alt Store EU exclusivity.
Any recomendations for ROMs to try? I just installed it but I don’t really know the world of ROMs
My favorite classic Nintendo games - https://shellsharks.com/notes/2011/07/07/favorite-nintendo-games
Not listed there are gameboy games. I mostly just played the various Pokémon games and Final Fantasy Legends.
- US User: get’s Delta for free from the App Store
- EU User: needs to install AltStore and pay a Tax €€€
Riley Testut decided to be a dick and show the middle finger to every European out there in hopes to push his little AltStore. He’s clearly leveraging Delta as a way to force EU people into the AltStore and this makes it yet another greedy person.
The App was approved by Apple for distribution - meaning it can be distributed in ALL App Stores, the fact that it is only available on the US store is a solely the decision of Riley Testut, and complete bullshit.
Riley Testut spends years bitching that Apple isn’t open, the EU proceeds to make sure Apple is more open and what does he do? Show the middle finder to the EU.
