Letters: Readers respond to an article about quitting the rat race, with some saying their generation was handed an untenable position and others saying the struggle is nothing new
Yeah like. I’m sympathetic to this arguement, but anyone thinking the average American today works “harder” and more strenuously to the average American in like 1920 is off their gourd.
All this stuff is really hard to measure, and ultimately we just need a system where people can live decent lives and not be miserable. There’s a difference between working hard and having a happy & fruitful life out of it and working little while remaining miserable
Edit:
Only in Lemmy could you get downvoted for suggesting that maybe doing enjoyable productive work is an okay thing. Day by day I’m more convinced the average user here just wants to live in the space ship from Wall-E getting force fed milkshakes all day
Productivity has gone up, pay has remained flat or declined when adjusting for price increases. How is that not “working more for less?”
And your read on the average lemmy user is inane. Most of the people I’ve interacted with want to do meaningful work and be able to live without the constant threat of homelessness, starvation, or death from easily preventable causes.
If you do “enjoyable work” and get paid enough to have a personal life that is also fulfilling, bully for you, but the vast majority of people are fucking struggling.
This guy thinks productivity has gone up because he personally works harder than the massive amount of people working 16 hours a day since the day they turn 14 a hundred years ago and not because of technological innovations hahahahahahahah
the average American today works “harder” and more strenuously to the average American in like 1920 is off their gourd.
The point is that the average person’s work produces more value, but that increase in value is all going to corporations. The value of wealth went up, the value of labour stagnated. That means the rich have more of the pie, and since money begets money, the poor get less and less.
Yeah that’s fine, and completely true. I think people on Lemmy sometimes just get confused by the stat and don’t realize like… how hard most every generation before them also had to work (at least before 1970 or so). Like, on average, much harder than today.
People see the whole productivity rise and people who are maybe not exactly lateral thinkers think that means the average employee literally works so much harder compared to the “comparatively easy” lives of before.
Most of the news subs on Lemmy are just cynical pity parties for first world problems. Idk what to make of people here. Wealthy educated countries with historically low unemployment and yet no one can seem to find a decent job.
Because unemployment is a bad metric. If you are working part-time at a pay rate that isn’t enough to pay the rent, you’re not unemployed but you’re also not living well.
If you’re not working any job because your skill set isn’t in demand but you can’t afford to learn new skills because you’re not working, you’re not considered unemployed. And you can’t just get an “unskilled” job because your experience makes you overqualified and applying without a resume won’t get you hired and even if you did get hired see the first point for why even bother.
Good thing the US underemployment rate, which includes part time workers, is also at near historic lows (7.3%). I’m not saying everything is honky dory, but this obsession with how hard our generation (millennials) has it, in denial of living in the wealthiest parts of the world at the most prosperous and peaceful times in human history, is pathetic.
I had to go back to college after the army. My BA degrees in business and criminal justice were worthless then, and still are worthless now. I got them to go through OCS. I was going to go into computer science, but got a C in C++, so went into mechanical engineering instead. Was jealous of all my coding friends, except now they are all laid off. Every single one of them.
These were the good jobs, the guys making 100-350k/yr for their programming knowledge. Now they have nothing, and no job prospects in their field. Companies are laying off workers in expensive areas and hiring unqualified people in much cheaper areas like Vietnam, China, and India to use ChatGPT to spit out code. MBA folks think they cracked the code and are out producing other firms who don’t use AI, but in reality the AI code is mostly shit. It looks good on KPIs, which are helping to fuel a massive bubble. It allows those who do nothing to act like they are more useful than those who do work.
Why don’t people work a good job like the one I have? Because not everyone can get a masters in engineering. The “good jobs” are disappearing.
I hope things get better for your friends. Tech is taking a hit right now.
I had trouble finding work after college, had to work some shit jobs and move around a lot, but I was never out of options, never at risk of going hungry or not sleeping in a bed. It takes a hell of a lot to go hungry or homeless in the US. There’s an insane amount of industry, wealth, and opportunity here.
Meanwhile, in my home country, there is 70% inflation in the past year. There is war everywhere on the borders (and conscription). There is no opportunity for young people. Inflation has destroyed most people’s ability to emigrate or get an American/European education. They’re just stuck there with a crumbling economy, a refugee crisis (about 10% of the population), an increasingly religious and oppressive government, and the constant threat of war.
It’s hard to see so many posts like these complaining about how hard everything is for people living in US, UK, Canada, France etc. from people with the most disposable income in the world, the highest carbon footprints, the biggest cars, the most meat consumption, good labor laws.
Yes, we should still strive to improve things. There are tons of problems in this system that result in conflict and inequality. But this kind of article is the epitome of first world problems from privileged people.
This whole site is filled with these cynical, self-pitying posts so we can all read them and think “yeah, everything is so unfair for me, everyone else had it so much easier” like everything is happening to us, and we have no control or agency in our own happiness and satisfaction. We bear no responsibility for our own situation. We live in the best part of the world in the best time of human history, yet we’re all miserable because everything is so terrible and hard.
In power grids (where I currently work) we have a very hard time finding field techs.
It pays around 90k your first year, 150k+/yr after depending on how many jobs you take. It’s tough work, but it’s not hard since everything is so heavy. Not a lot of manual lifting, but you are out in the elements.
All hotel and meals are paid out on sight. Hardly anyone wants the jobs. You don’t even need a trade school anymore, all training is on the job.
It’s the same in biotech and pharma. We are basically always hiring skilled labor, even during layoffs. You can get a 6 week certificate that will land you a manufacturing job for $80k per year plus OT. No college needed. Many companies will even pay for it if you agree to a 6 month contract with them.
Maybe a weird request but, would you mind posting a job listing as an example of the job you’re describing? Doesn’t have to be your specific company or anything.
Are they willing to hire people who don’t already have 10 years experience? Are they willing to train people who are fresh out of high school? If not then those companies can only blame themselves for not having workers. After the Great Recession companies got entitled because they could hire whoever they wanted with whatever experience and degrees they wanted for rock bottom prices and that entitlement never left.
You say it takes a hell of a lot to go homeless but there’s literally homeless people everywhere in this country. I literally can’t ride my bike to the thrift store (can’t afford a car) without passing a half dozen tents on the sidewalk, and then you get to the thrift store and it’s so deeply picked over there’s nothing worth buying. None of that is a sign that things are good. America is a great place if you’re rich not if you’re poor
The problem is that in this cktnext, the cost of living has gone up significantly. But there’s no equivalent increase in pay, so we see shit like the gig economy being more and more common.
Just because unemployment is low doesn’t mean the jobs are good comment to the contrary the jobs are shit and you often need more than one just to survive
Yeah it’s just kind of like… I don’t know what to call it other than pathetic. Everyone here postures themselves as being these great advocates for workers rights but seemingly that’s all contingent on a revolution that does nothing but give them more money for less work under the assumption that yunno, people like laborers and nurses and all the people with jobs that actually require continuous will just get fucked
I’d prefer top mgmt be removed and their wages be dispersed accordingly and have employees run the companies boards with equal representation, not investors.
You guys realise most work is getting replaced by tech and automation FAR faster than new jobs are being created right? There isnt enough jobs in the 1st world to go around, and its only getting worse. 8hours only exists because we need to feed ourselves at this point, NOT because theres 8 hours of work that needs to be done
Okay, that’s fine too. And I agree with you there. But the only solutions there are:
Many of the disaffected computer programmers and office workers become nurses, builders, etc. Like, a large percentage of them.
We completely decide to stagnate as a society to approximately the year 2018.
Neither of these are great solutions.
Obviously in some far off future we can hypothetically get to the point where so much work is automated that work becomes more (but never completely) optional, but until we get to that point there are absolutely 8+ hours of work to be ton in a ton of fields.
Bud, I’m IN construction, competition for decent jobs is tough here too, not as bad as other fields sure, bud theres still a boom and bust season going on for the easier to get jobs. Furthermore, the fields lacking workers are the ones not paying enough to live off of, so capitalism isnt filling those roles either
Just joshing. You have me there that constructions a bit of a tricky one just because it is so boom/bust and area dependent. I do some work with my local Habitat for Humanity and good lord we can’t find a single qualified contractor for some general purpose construction to save our hides. In other areas, very different.
The point being, obviously we’re driving towards a society where UBI is needed and in on the whole people can work a bit less - but when people on Lemmy seem to go “working is bullshit! I could be at work half as long and nothing would go bad!”, that’s sometimes frustrating to me. As I know that is deeply not the case for many fields. Same goes for people who simply cannot conceptualize taking pride in one’s work as a real thing and not just “capitalist propaganda.”
To put it in dork terms, there’s a very thin line between a utopia like Star Trek and one like Wall-E. I want the former… I think many people want the latter.
Because - and this might shock you, civilization requires goods and services to be manufactured and performed.
I know it’s really easy to picture “everyone can just work a little less!” But remember… that’s not just you in your office tower. That’s nurses, and construction workers, and HVAC technicians, and builders, and farmers.
So you can have your vision where no one has to work 8 hours a day… but that also means housing will be even more scarce and expensive and the wait time for your mom to get into the ER goes from one hour to five…
It’s really really easy to say “we can just seize the means of production and everyone in the country will work less” when you don’t work in a vital industry. Things get a lot more complicated once you do.
I work in a vital industry again you are being narrow minded as fuck trying to pigeon hole some stupid fucking point that doesn’t relate to our commentary. We as a company could simply hire more employees to spread the work so we all have more free time. You are forgetting that we can react to your perceived and ludicrous negatives that exist in your hypotheticals.
Yeah like. I’m sympathetic to this arguement, but anyone thinking the average American today works “harder” and more strenuously to the average American in like 1920 is off their gourd.
All this stuff is really hard to measure, and ultimately we just need a system where people can live decent lives and not be miserable. There’s a difference between working hard and having a happy & fruitful life out of it and working little while remaining miserable
Edit:
Only in Lemmy could you get downvoted for suggesting that maybe doing enjoyable productive work is an okay thing. Day by day I’m more convinced the average user here just wants to live in the space ship from Wall-E getting force fed milkshakes all day
Productivity has gone up, pay has remained flat or declined when adjusting for price increases. How is that not “working more for less?”
And your read on the average lemmy user is inane. Most of the people I’ve interacted with want to do meaningful work and be able to live without the constant threat of homelessness, starvation, or death from easily preventable causes.
If you do “enjoyable work” and get paid enough to have a personal life that is also fulfilling, bully for you, but the vast majority of people are fucking struggling.
Removed by mod
This guy thinks productivity has gone up because he personally works harder than the massive amount of people working 16 hours a day since the day they turn 14 a hundred years ago and not because of technological innovations hahahahahahahah
Or maybe it has gone up because we have vastly more efficient machines and technology at our disposal.
Yeah man. That’s what “technological innovations” are.
The point is that the average person’s work produces more value, but that increase in value is all going to corporations. The value of wealth went up, the value of labour stagnated. That means the rich have more of the pie, and since money begets money, the poor get less and less.
Yeah that’s fine, and completely true. I think people on Lemmy sometimes just get confused by the stat and don’t realize like… how hard most every generation before them also had to work (at least before 1970 or so). Like, on average, much harder than today.
People see the whole productivity rise and people who are maybe not exactly lateral thinkers think that means the average employee literally works so much harder compared to the “comparatively easy” lives of before.
It just ends up creating really… strange dynamics
How do we know, though? Everyone will think they worked the hardest, suffered the greatest, deserve the most.
Just because I’m not working in a rock factory doesn’t mean I don’t also work hard to sustain any measure of a valuable life
Comparison is the thief of joy
Joy is an illusion. Comparison is reality.
That doesn’t make any sense lol
It reads like some Jaden Smith level of insight
But you have a good one
I guess a more optimistic way to say it is “ignorance is bliss”. I never liked that saying. Ignorance is not a good thing.
Most of the news subs on Lemmy are just cynical pity parties for first world problems. Idk what to make of people here. Wealthy educated countries with historically low unemployment and yet no one can seem to find a decent job.
Because unemployment is a bad metric. If you are working part-time at a pay rate that isn’t enough to pay the rent, you’re not unemployed but you’re also not living well.
If you’re not working any job because your skill set isn’t in demand but you can’t afford to learn new skills because you’re not working, you’re not considered unemployed. And you can’t just get an “unskilled” job because your experience makes you overqualified and applying without a resume won’t get you hired and even if you did get hired see the first point for why even bother.
Good thing the US underemployment rate, which includes part time workers, is also at near historic lows (7.3%). I’m not saying everything is honky dory, but this obsession with how hard our generation (millennials) has it, in denial of living in the wealthiest parts of the world at the most prosperous and peaceful times in human history, is pathetic.
Lmdao. It would be amazing if the wealth wasn’t being stolen, privatized, and insulated to 1% of the populous.
I will give you my two pennies on this.
I had to go back to college after the army. My BA degrees in business and criminal justice were worthless then, and still are worthless now. I got them to go through OCS. I was going to go into computer science, but got a C in C++, so went into mechanical engineering instead. Was jealous of all my coding friends, except now they are all laid off. Every single one of them.
These were the good jobs, the guys making 100-350k/yr for their programming knowledge. Now they have nothing, and no job prospects in their field. Companies are laying off workers in expensive areas and hiring unqualified people in much cheaper areas like Vietnam, China, and India to use ChatGPT to spit out code. MBA folks think they cracked the code and are out producing other firms who don’t use AI, but in reality the AI code is mostly shit. It looks good on KPIs, which are helping to fuel a massive bubble. It allows those who do nothing to act like they are more useful than those who do work.
Why don’t people work a good job like the one I have? Because not everyone can get a masters in engineering. The “good jobs” are disappearing.
I hope things get better for your friends. Tech is taking a hit right now.
I had trouble finding work after college, had to work some shit jobs and move around a lot, but I was never out of options, never at risk of going hungry or not sleeping in a bed. It takes a hell of a lot to go hungry or homeless in the US. There’s an insane amount of industry, wealth, and opportunity here.
Meanwhile, in my home country, there is 70% inflation in the past year. There is war everywhere on the borders (and conscription). There is no opportunity for young people. Inflation has destroyed most people’s ability to emigrate or get an American/European education. They’re just stuck there with a crumbling economy, a refugee crisis (about 10% of the population), an increasingly religious and oppressive government, and the constant threat of war.
It’s hard to see so many posts like these complaining about how hard everything is for people living in US, UK, Canada, France etc. from people with the most disposable income in the world, the highest carbon footprints, the biggest cars, the most meat consumption, good labor laws.
Yes, we should still strive to improve things. There are tons of problems in this system that result in conflict and inequality. But this kind of article is the epitome of first world problems from privileged people.
This whole site is filled with these cynical, self-pitying posts so we can all read them and think “yeah, everything is so unfair for me, everyone else had it so much easier” like everything is happening to us, and we have no control or agency in our own happiness and satisfaction. We bear no responsibility for our own situation. We live in the best part of the world in the best time of human history, yet we’re all miserable because everything is so terrible and hard.
In power grids (where I currently work) we have a very hard time finding field techs.
It pays around 90k your first year, 150k+/yr after depending on how many jobs you take. It’s tough work, but it’s not hard since everything is so heavy. Not a lot of manual lifting, but you are out in the elements.
All hotel and meals are paid out on sight. Hardly anyone wants the jobs. You don’t even need a trade school anymore, all training is on the job.
There are jobs out there.
It’s the same in biotech and pharma. We are basically always hiring skilled labor, even during layoffs. You can get a 6 week certificate that will land you a manufacturing job for $80k per year plus OT. No college needed. Many companies will even pay for it if you agree to a 6 month contract with them.
Maybe a weird request but, would you mind posting a job listing as an example of the job you’re describing? Doesn’t have to be your specific company or anything.
Are they willing to hire people who don’t already have 10 years experience? Are they willing to train people who are fresh out of high school? If not then those companies can only blame themselves for not having workers. After the Great Recession companies got entitled because they could hire whoever they wanted with whatever experience and degrees they wanted for rock bottom prices and that entitlement never left.
You need zero experience.
Have to 21 due to state laws in high danger areas and nuclear power.
so if I applied I’d be accepted and get on-the-job training?
You still have to interview and pass a background/drug test. But yes, and you actually have to show up for work.
You say it takes a hell of a lot to go homeless but there’s literally homeless people everywhere in this country. I literally can’t ride my bike to the thrift store (can’t afford a car) without passing a half dozen tents on the sidewalk, and then you get to the thrift store and it’s so deeply picked over there’s nothing worth buying. None of that is a sign that things are good. America is a great place if you’re rich not if you’re poor
The problem is that in this cktnext, the cost of living has gone up significantly. But there’s no equivalent increase in pay, so we see shit like the gig economy being more and more common.
Just because unemployment is low doesn’t mean the jobs are good comment to the contrary the jobs are shit and you often need more than one just to survive
Yeah it’s just kind of like… I don’t know what to call it other than pathetic. Everyone here postures themselves as being these great advocates for workers rights but seemingly that’s all contingent on a revolution that does nothing but give them more money for less work under the assumption that yunno, people like laborers and nurses and all the people with jobs that actually require continuous will just get fucked
I’d prefer top mgmt be removed and their wages be dispersed accordingly and have employees run the companies boards with equal representation, not investors.
There are plenty of employee owned businesses. You should work for one, or, better yet, make one.
That’s fine enough, but you realize people are still going to have to do 8~ hours of work a day under such a system, correct?
You guys realise most work is getting replaced by tech and automation FAR faster than new jobs are being created right? There isnt enough jobs in the 1st world to go around, and its only getting worse. 8hours only exists because we need to feed ourselves at this point, NOT because theres 8 hours of work that needs to be done
Okay, that’s fine too. And I agree with you there. But the only solutions there are:
Many of the disaffected computer programmers and office workers become nurses, builders, etc. Like, a large percentage of them.
We completely decide to stagnate as a society to approximately the year 2018.
Neither of these are great solutions.
Obviously in some far off future we can hypothetically get to the point where so much work is automated that work becomes more (but never completely) optional, but until we get to that point there are absolutely 8+ hours of work to be ton in a ton of fields.
Bud, I’m IN construction, competition for decent jobs is tough here too, not as bad as other fields sure, bud theres still a boom and bust season going on for the easier to get jobs. Furthermore, the fields lacking workers are the ones not paying enough to live off of, so capitalism isnt filling those roles either
Yeah, but I bet you work 8 hours a day don’t you?
Just joshing. You have me there that constructions a bit of a tricky one just because it is so boom/bust and area dependent. I do some work with my local Habitat for Humanity and good lord we can’t find a single qualified contractor for some general purpose construction to save our hides. In other areas, very different.
The point being, obviously we’re driving towards a society where UBI is needed and in on the whole people can work a bit less - but when people on Lemmy seem to go “working is bullshit! I could be at work half as long and nothing would go bad!”, that’s sometimes frustrating to me. As I know that is deeply not the case for many fields. Same goes for people who simply cannot conceptualize taking pride in one’s work as a real thing and not just “capitalist propaganda.”
To put it in dork terms, there’s a very thin line between a utopia like Star Trek and one like Wall-E. I want the former… I think many people want the latter.
Why? I wouldn’t have to require that.
Because - and this might shock you, civilization requires goods and services to be manufactured and performed.
I know it’s really easy to picture “everyone can just work a little less!” But remember… that’s not just you in your office tower. That’s nurses, and construction workers, and HVAC technicians, and builders, and farmers.
So you can have your vision where no one has to work 8 hours a day… but that also means housing will be even more scarce and expensive and the wait time for your mom to get into the ER goes from one hour to five…
It’s really really easy to say “we can just seize the means of production and everyone in the country will work less” when you don’t work in a vital industry. Things get a lot more complicated once you do.
I work in a vital industry again you are being narrow minded as fuck trying to pigeon hole some stupid fucking point that doesn’t relate to our commentary. We as a company could simply hire more employees to spread the work so we all have more free time. You are forgetting that we can react to your perceived and ludicrous negatives that exist in your hypotheticals.