• Veraticus@lib.lgbt
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    40
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    1 year ago

    So as a queer person, does this mean I can choose not to service Christians at my business?

    Because somehow I doubt the Supreme Court would back me up there.

    • SapphicFemme@lib.lgbt
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      It confuses me religion (an unscientific idea) is even a protected class versus an immutable characteristic like skin color, gender, sexuality, disability etc.

      • br3d@lemmy.fmhy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        Religious privilege is getting an invite to the meeting where this stuff was decided

      • Landrin201@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        Because if it isn’t then millions of people in this country will openly be discriminated against because of their religion.

        I’m Jewish. Do I really need to explain why I think having protections for my religious beliefs is a good idea? There are more LGBT people than Jews in America. We are a small minority who has historically been heavily discriminated against, and that discrimination is ongoing right now. Antisemitism has gotten significantly more out in the open over the last decade. I can confidently state that had I not been protected by laws, I likely wouldn’t have gotten into college, gotten my first job, or had many of the opportunities that I’ve had in life. I know friends who have been told to their faces that an employer didn’t want to hire them because they were jews.

        I don’t really care if religion is “unscientific,” for people who are religious is a critical part of who they are and, more importantly, a lot of other people (religious and not) assign it just as much importance and will happily discriminate against, ostracize, and even kill people for being the “wrong” religion if allowed to do so. I can’t just “give up” by Jewishness because it’s a deeply ingrained part of who I am, and asking me to “just stop” is frankly as offensive as telling a gay person to “just stop” believing they are gay. And, more importantly, even if I completely rescinded all of my belief in my religious beliefs AND stopped doing all Jewish activities, got rid of all my Jewish paraphernalia, converted to Christianity and lived openly as a Christian, there are still people who would consider me Jewish and discriminate against me simply for having Jewish parents.

        YOU might not like religion, and I completely understand why so many people feel that way, but removing religions from being protected classes Isa really great way to guarantee millions of people get discriminated against every single day.

        • toomanyjoints69@lemmygrad.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          God your spam is gumming up the thread. I’m not going to read all of that crap. Maybe if you only posted it once. But no, you had to make sure we all saw it 4 times.

      • Landrin201@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Because if it isn’t then millions of people in this country will openly be discriminated against because of their religion.

        I’m Jewish. Do I really need to explain why I think having protections for my religious beliefs is a good idea? There are more LGBT people than Jews in America. We are a small minority who has historically been heavily discriminated against, and that discrimination is ongoing right now. Antisemitism has gotten significantly more out in the open over the last decade. I can confidently state that had I not been protected by laws, I likely wouldn’t have gotten into college, gotten my first job, or had many of the opportunities that I’ve had in life. I know friends who have been told to their faces that an employer didn’t want to hire them because they were jews.

        I don’t really care if religion is “unscientific,” for people who are religious is a critical part of who they are and, more importantly, a lot of other people (religious and not) assign it just as much importance and will happily discriminate against, ostracize, and even kill people for being the “wrong” religion if allowed to do so. I can’t just “give up” by Jewishness because it’s a deeply ingrained part of who I am, and asking me to “just stop” is frankly as offensive as telling a gay person to “just stop” believing they are gay. And, more importantly, even if I completely rescinded all of my belief in my religious beliefs AND stopped doing all Jewish activities, got rid of all my Jewish paraphernalia, converted to Christianity and lived openly as a Christian, there are still people who would consider me Jewish and discriminate against me simply for having Jewish parents.

        YOU might not like religion, and I completely understand why so many people feel that way, but removing religions from being protected classes Isa really great way to guarantee millions of people get discriminated against every single day.

      • Landrin201@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Because if it isn’t then millions of people in this country will openly be discriminated against because of their religion.

        I’m Jewish. Do I really need to explain why I think having protections for my religious beliefs is a good idea? There are more LGBT people than Jews in America. We are a small minority who has historically been heavily discriminated against, and that discrimination is ongoing right now. Antisemitism has gotten significantly more out in the open over the last decade. I can confidently state that had I not been protected by laws, I likely wouldn’t have gotten into college, gotten my first job, or had many of the opportunities that I’ve had in life. I know friends who have been told to their faces that an employer didn’t want to hire them because they were jews.

        I don’t really care if religion is “unscientific,” for people who are religious is a critical part of who they are and, more importantly, a lot of other people (religious and not) assign it just as much importance and will happily discriminate against, ostracize, and even kill people for being the “wrong” religion if allowed to do so. I can’t just “give up” by Jewishness because it’s a deeply ingrained part of who I am, and asking me to “just stop” is frankly as offensive as telling a gay person to “just stop” believing they are gay. And, more importantly, even if I completely rescinded all of my belief in my religious beliefs AND stopped doing all Jewish activities, got rid of all my Jewish paraphernalia, converted to Christianity and lived openly as a Christian, there are still people who would consider me Jewish and discriminate against me simply for having Jewish parents.

        YOU might not like religion, and I completely understand why so many people feel that way, but removing religions from being protected classes Isa really great way to guarantee millions of people get discriminated against every single day.

        • SapphicFemme@lib.lgbt
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          I apologise my comment is a bad comment … You are correct 100% … I had and tunnel mind while typing it out. You are right and bring good points.

          Religion should be protected in the sense discrimination should NOT be allowed or hate speech also be BANNED towards religious groups.

          I’m really sorry again… It must have not felt good when you read my comment and saw what i typed. Please forgive me.

          I’ve been hurt a lot by different Christians in my life and i have seen a lot of Christians cause a lot of harm to way to many people in varying ways I’m angered at the hypocrisy and lies that are regularly spread by Christians. I’m angered that other Christians allow it and don’t stop it. Not even the pope has seemingly done anything.

          • Landrin201@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I understand completely, I’ve dealt with a lot of asshole Christians myself. No need to apologize.

            What frustrates me in he last few years is that I see a LOT of people online openly calling for the removal of religion as a protected class, or questioning why it is one to begin with.

            And in a context like this, I understand why people do it. It’s a visceral reaction to seeing LGBT people’s protections stripped away in favor of “religious protections” which actually protect nobody in rulings like this one. Gay people should be protected equally like religious people are, and it isn’t a “protection” to allow discrimination based on one’s subjective religious belief.

            But if we strip ALL religious protections, then it opens the door for significantly worse harm to be done to religious minorities. What we need is to undo this one ruling, not stop protecting religious people from discrimination or protecting their right to practice their religion freely. And I don’t see discriminating against other people as part of free practice of religion, because one person’s rights end where another person’s begin, and other people have the right not to be discriminated against.

            • SapphicFemme@lib.lgbt
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              and it isn’t a “protection” to allow discrimination based on one’s subjective religious belief.

              That is 100% true, it’s othering another out group, not creating peace, unity and an egalitarian society

              I think best would be to allow, protection of religion but not allow the people who weaponise religion to harm others

      • Landrin201@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Edit: My app decided to post this multiple times, I’m cleaning them up, sorry for that yall. Didn’t mean to spam 4 identical posts…

        Because if it isn’t then millions of people in this country will openly be discriminated against because of their religion.

        I’m Jewish. Do I really need to explain why I think having protections for my religious beliefs is a good idea? There are more LGBT people than Jews in America. We are a small minority who has historically been heavily discriminated against, and that discrimination is ongoing right now. Antisemitism has gotten significantly more out in the open over the last decade. I can confidently state that had I not been protected by laws, I likely wouldn’t have gotten into college, gotten my first job, or had many of the opportunities that I’ve had in life. I know friends who have been told to their faces that an employer didn’t want to hire them because they were jews.

        I don’t really care if religion is “unscientific,” for people who are religious is a critical part of who they are and, more importantly, a lot of other people (religious and not) assign it just as much importance and will happily discriminate against, ostracize, and even kill people for being the “wrong” religion if allowed to do so. I can’t just “give up” by Jewishness because it’s a deeply ingrained part of who I am, and asking me to “just stop” is frankly as offensive as telling a gay person to “just stop” believing they are gay. And, more importantly, even if I completely rescinded all of my belief in my religious beliefs AND stopped doing all Jewish activities, got rid of all my Jewish paraphernalia, converted to Christianity and lived openly as a Christian, there are still people who would consider me Jewish and discriminate against me simply for having Jewish parents.

        YOU might not like religion, and I completely understand why so many people feel that way, but removing religions from being protected classes Isa really great way to guarantee millions of people get discriminated against every single day.

        • twhite@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          I think the point of this discussion is to showcase the hypocrisy by example.

          So, you’ve hit the nail on the head.

        • vacuumflower@vlemmy.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          No, such daily stuff doesn’t harm you, and even has the virtue of people you’d not want to depend on being more likely to show their true colors.

          EDIT: I too have some Jewish relation and have thought of this.

        • BuzzingWithElectrolytes@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          So you’re arguing in favour of discriminating against the non-religious then. That’s the logical conclusion of what you said and precisely what’s happening with this court case.

      • CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        It’s a security blanket that large blocks of society have yet to grow out of, unfortunately. Like trying to phase a toddler out of their binky, suggesting laying it aside is likely to result in tantrums.

    • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Honestly I’ve been waiting for someone to do exactly this. And now they have a precedent to cite when it goes to court, one which specifically addresses religious beliefs.

    • maporita@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      1 year ago

      It means that if a Christian asks you to design a website with messages that violate your religious beliefs then you can refuse. If I as a satanist believe that a woman’s right to abortion is sacred then I can refuse to design a website with an anti-abortion message. I can’t simply refuse to design a website for a Christian. Not saying I agree with the ruling, just explaining what it means.

      • FlowVoid@midwest.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        The ruling says you don’t have to design a website that violates any sincerely held beliefs, not just religious beliefs.

        So if you are gay and a Catholic asked you to design a website promoting “Marriage is for one man and one woman”, you can refuse. Before the ruling, you might have been found to be discriminating against Catholics.

      • vacuumflower@vlemmy.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        The whole idea of some things being protected and some not is very wrong. Rights should be a wildcard. That’s the right of private discrimination as ancaps see it.

        • FlowVoid@midwest.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          There are two rights that the courts have traditionally protected, the right to say (or not say) what you want, and the right to be free of discrimination.

          In this case, the two rights were in conflict. The court decided that the first one takes precedence.

          • vacuumflower@vlemmy.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            That’s to be free of discrimination by the state, which usually will treat your obligations independently of your rights.

            While private discrimination is always something in the grey area. By private discrimination I mean both a banner saying “<any grouping at all> are not welcome here” and having face control (something quite normal for night clubs, and you’ll also pick your tenants if you rent out).

        • Bumblefumble@beehaw.org
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Because it’s a shit ruling that says discriminating against people is a form of speech. At least that’s why I think it’s a horrible ruling.

    • HairHeel@programming.dev
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      I’m not a lawyer, but my understanding is it would depend on what kind of business you’re in and what kind of services the Christian customers asked for. You could say “I do websites for weddings, but not Christian weddings” for example.

      As I understand it, this ruling still wouldn’t necessarily protect broader discrimination like “I own an ice cream shop, but I won’t sell ice cream to certain people”; whether the people you’re refusing to sell to are Christian, gay, etc…

      • SpaceToast@mander.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Thank you. So many people don’t understand what happened and think the Supreme Court made it legal to discriminate against gay people.

    • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      You’d have thought so but I’m not sure we’re dealing with rational or coherent rules or people.

    • zephyreks@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      If you’re not super tired up with being American for the near future, do it and have an exist strategy to e.g. Canada.

      • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        26
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Whoa, calm down there! It’s definitely not hate. I love all Christian people. I just disagree with their lifestyle. How can they force me to support the messed-up things they do? You’re getting dangerously close to treading on my constitutional right of free speech, my friend!

        • Zetta@mander.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I hate all religions equally, many religious people are good people but I hate their faith.

        • SpaceToast@mander.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Same way nobody can force someone to build them a website.

          • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Actually this is not true! The Civil Rights Act of 1964 did indeed force private businesses to act to end segregation:

            The act outlawed segregation in businesses such as theaters, restaurants, and hotels. It banned discriminatory practices in employment and ended segregation in public places such as swimming pools, libraries, and public schools.

            So yes, the government can and does literally force businesses to provide equal access to their services.

            Of course, this doesn’t apply to websites because the Supreme Court appears to approve of some kinds of discrimination, but not others.

            That was the my initial point. The Supreme Court is fine with discrimination against LGBTQ people. But you had better believe that if someone actually discriminated against white people or Christians, they would come down against it like a ton of bricks. Because this is not motivated by an ideological belief in the first amendment, but a conservative desire to roll back rights and access for minorities they dislike.

            • SpaceToast@mander.xyz
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              5
              ·
              1 year ago

              You aren’t understanding what happened here.

              They didn’t flat out refuse service because the customer was gay, they refused to create something that they didn’t agree with.

              Do you really think LGBT devs would be forced to design a website for the KKK? If so you don’t live in the real world.

              You can’t force people to do what you want.

              • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Oh no, I understand.

                Would it surprise you to know that literally that exact same argument was used against Black people to resist integration, and indeed, the same Civil Rights Act of 1964 I linked? That it wasn’t because the person was Black, but because the business owner had a religious belief that was incompatible with service? That they shouldn’t be compelled to provide a service they disagreed with? It is as spurious then as it was now.

                The reason your example is bad is because membership in the KKK is not a protected class, not because businesses are not required to provide equal access. Businesses are in fact barred from discriminating against protected classes and must provide them equal access (in general). Except, of course, if the Supreme Court likes the protected class in question less than they do the “free speech” of another class.

                So, yes indeed, the government can and does force people to do what they want.

                They will make an exception if you’re a Christian apparently, however.

                • SpaceToast@mander.xyz
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  By your own words, you still aren’t getting it.

                  You keep comparing it to businesses not serving black people, which is discrimination 100%.

                  That’s not what happened here. The gay customers weren’t denied service. The developer just declined creating something that they don’t agree with.

                  Here are some examples to make it easy for you.

                  1. I’m selling cupcakes and refuse to sell to a gay couple. - illegal

                  2. I’m selling cupcakes and a gay couple wants custom made cupcakes with rainbows and unicorns, but I don’t like unicorns so I decline. - legal

                  • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Reread what I just wrote. “The developer just declined creating something that they don’t agree with” is literally exactly the same justification people used to resist integration and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It was discrimination then and it is discrimination now. There is no difference between your two examples except in your own mind. Certainly there is no difference before the law. (Except if the creator of the cupcake is Christian, apparently.)

      • Steve@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        12
        ·
        1 year ago

        I think they’re more just pointing out how this ruling isn’t fair because of the fact that it doesn’t go both ways.