I feel like it’s quite the strawman or misunderstanding when people ask for material proof of God. Can you prove math using empirical verification? No. because math is not something you can empirically verify as it does not exist materially.
Math is a language describing the fundamentals of our world and nature. God is a completely fabricated fairytale. You don’t need a proof of English to see it exists, you do need evidence to proof that the big bad wolf is real. That’s the difference, fuck you people need actual education…
Math is based on logic, we can’t prove it scientifically because it’s not something which is empirically verifiable but provable through deduction. If we are happy with logic to prove math what is wrong with logical arguments for God? I’m not against science or needing to prove your theories. I’m only against the notion that if you don’t have empirical proof for God then God doesn’t exist.
Sure. I observe 2 oranges. I can also observe the world around me. Although observation is a part of the scientific method it is not the scientific method it self. Perhaps what I said can use more clarification, take Pythagorean theorem. This is not something which is proverable through science or observation but rather mathematically through logic. Its not something which you can put under a microscope.
Not directly since there are no perfect triangles but it ties into sine and cosine which ties into the equations that govern light. Which are always true no matter how often we measure them.
Right, so in Math we have axioms and we build upon those axioms and construct theorems which are deductively true. They are not true in the same way a scientific theory is. My point is, not everything that can be true needs empirical verification. Math is one example.
While what you say is true, tautological arguments are not useful in and of themselves. Internally consistent mathematics is not a useful construct unless we can empirically discover structures that those mathematical systems model. Einsteins theory of relativity is not impressive without the empirical discovery that the it is/was a better model than the existing Newtonian models that proceeded it.
To argue that internally consistent tautologies are true and are of equivalent usefulness is a bad faith argument that inappropriately equates two logical constructs.
You can empirically prove math like you’d empirically prove other things - make predictions based on math and test these predictions. But it seems like you are expecting these proofs to be like mathematical proofs - uncompromising logic that leaves no room for getting false positives by chance. They won’t. They’ll be like all other empirical proofs - “mere” scientific theories that must forever live with the possibility - however improbable - that the universe somehow aligned to make all the predictions come true even though the hypothesis they were derived from is wrong.
But this is not a property of the math we were trying to prove. This is just the nature of the empirical proofs. Implying, based on that, that math is less verifiable than all the physical observable things (like frozen oxygen) is ridiculous - the proofs for these things suffer from the exact same problem!
The (poorly) argued point they are trying to make is the distinction between the empirically identified congruences between the math and the internally consistent tautological truth of the math itself.
The reason I bring this up is your point about math modeling empirical evidence is an important distinction. Where their argument truly breaks down is the idea that all internally consistent tautologies are of equal value to us as humans. This is obviously false.
And frankly, their other argument about this showing that true things exist without empirical proof is offensively stupid since we already have much better proofs demonstrating that true things exist without proof.
I feel like it’s quite the strawman or misunderstanding when people ask for material proof of God. Can you prove math using empirical verification? No. because math is not something you can empirically verify as it does not exist materially.
And here, ladies and gentlemen, we see the terrible consequences of America’s opiate epidemic.
I’m going to hazard a guess that you weren’t a math or a philosophy major.
You’re telling me you have a way to scientifically prove math? Please show me how you can use the scientific method to prove math.
Math is a language describing the fundamentals of our world and nature. God is a completely fabricated fairytale. You don’t need a proof of English to see it exists, you do need evidence to proof that the big bad wolf is real. That’s the difference, fuck you people need actual education…
Math is based on logic, we can’t prove it scientifically because it’s not something which is empirically verifiable but provable through deduction. If we are happy with logic to prove math what is wrong with logical arguments for God? I’m not against science or needing to prove your theories. I’m only against the notion that if you don’t have empirical proof for God then God doesn’t exist.
No, I’m saying that you’ve boldly gone into the territory that physicist and Nobel laureate Wolfgang Pauli called “Not right, and not even wrong.”
So, what would you expect a “proof of math” to look like?
In a jar, distilled to a bright colourful liquid at -218°C
I mean, math is more bunch of agreements and consequences, that come from that.
I agree
Geometry is not a thing?
I give you an orange and then i give you another orange, how many oranges do you have empirically.
I will need a research grant and 3 interns.
After extensive testing we have a 95% confidence of mean of 2.
Sure. I observe 2 oranges. I can also observe the world around me. Although observation is a part of the scientific method it is not the scientific method it self. Perhaps what I said can use more clarification, take Pythagorean theorem. This is not something which is proverable through science or observation but rather mathematically through logic. Its not something which you can put under a microscope.
Not directly since there are no perfect triangles but it ties into sine and cosine which ties into the equations that govern light. Which are always true no matter how often we measure them.
Right, so in Math we have axioms and we build upon those axioms and construct theorems which are deductively true. They are not true in the same way a scientific theory is. My point is, not everything that can be true needs empirical verification. Math is one example.
While what you say is true, tautological arguments are not useful in and of themselves. Internally consistent mathematics is not a useful construct unless we can empirically discover structures that those mathematical systems model. Einsteins theory of relativity is not impressive without the empirical discovery that the it is/was a better model than the existing Newtonian models that proceeded it.
To argue that internally consistent tautologies are true and are of equivalent usefulness is a bad faith argument that inappropriately equates two logical constructs.
You can empirically prove math like you’d empirically prove other things - make predictions based on math and test these predictions. But it seems like you are expecting these proofs to be like mathematical proofs - uncompromising logic that leaves no room for getting false positives by chance. They won’t. They’ll be like all other empirical proofs - “mere” scientific theories that must forever live with the possibility - however improbable - that the universe somehow aligned to make all the predictions come true even though the hypothesis they were derived from is wrong.
But this is not a property of the math we were trying to prove. This is just the nature of the empirical proofs. Implying, based on that, that math is less verifiable than all the physical observable things (like frozen oxygen) is ridiculous - the proofs for these things suffer from the exact same problem!
The (poorly) argued point they are trying to make is the distinction between the empirically identified congruences between the math and the internally consistent tautological truth of the math itself.
The reason I bring this up is your point about math modeling empirical evidence is an important distinction. Where their argument truly breaks down is the idea that all internally consistent tautologies are of equal value to us as humans. This is obviously false.
And frankly, their other argument about this showing that true things exist without empirical proof is offensively stupid since we already have much better proofs demonstrating that true things exist without proof.
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