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“Become a world power”
You know, we’ve had that experience before, “everywhere else” would pretty much prefer that didn’t happen again, thank you very much.
lol yea. I’m an American and fully support other nations boycotting our goods but I’m noticing an overlap with these boycotts and nationalist-imperialist sentiments.
Weirdly enough, from what I’ve seen, European nationalists tend to be very much against the EU.
you’re missing Euronationalism as category.
THIS; I feel deranged, not hearing anyone else say they’ve noticed it.
Seriously. Why do people genuinely think this is a good idea? Colonialism and imperialism is bad.
People should have learned after the US’s faults, and overreliance of it due to being a world power; but people just want to do it again???
How does this have anything to do with colonialism?
Have you… studied history?
Is being a super power inherently inclusive with having colonies? I have never heard of that definition before.
People should have learned after the US’s faults
The U.S. huh? That’s who you are going to go with during a discussion of European Imperialism and world power? The Euro’s were out fucking up the world before the United States existed and a full half of the world is still desperately fucked up from literal centuries of horrifically brutal European Imperialism.
If you need lessons on anti-imperialism you don’t need the United States, just take a gander at the Europeans own histories.
? I think you misunderstood me. I know, the british and french have caused way more damage than the US has caused here. By the US’s faults specifically, i was talking about it caving into fascism (arguably has been rotting for a long time, just finally shown face) and europeans getting away from it. And since the US is a global power, they overrelied on it. Their solution? Just be their another global power, surely nothing bad will happen.
One could argue it already is - mainly on a soft power level. Now that Ursula has chopped the chains off the war chest we can get back the hard power as well. I feel very good about this, it’s rare to feel optimistic about the way your country and union is going…
Yup yup… A little scary though…
That is the reason why I gotta just trust that the people running the country and EU know what they are doing.
I am in Finland and I really do trust we are doing what we need to, our defense forces and government is very shush shush regarding defense, every government and defense outlet was adamant that we weren’t joining NATO until the foreign minister and president announced the move. At least in a country of 5 million we are really thinking of each other here. Let’s just hope that is the case for the rest of the EU and the overall union.
Slava Ukraini
Trust? I don’t trust any politician… Here in Portugal we’re almost certainly going for early elections because the government is gonna fail a confidence vote…
Having lived over 2 decades in a couple of countries in Europe (including Portugal, were I hail from), lets just say that Portugal is quite a lot more corrupt than average, sort of half-way between Western Europe and Latin America.
Mind you, that it’s a scandal this kind of funny business (the family of the PM buying almost a million euros of realestate in cash using money undeclared to the political transparency authority) and that the Government is likely to fall for it, is actually a step forward from the Past - in the old days there wasn’t even the obligation for sitting Government politicians and Parliament members to declare their incomes and the sources of it in an open way, so this would have never have come to light.
So this is an actual positive and reflects an improvement in Portugal (though painfully slow as it’s fought every step by the two main parties who pretty much only ever vote together when it’s to stop anti-corruption measures).
Hmmm I wonder about that… What you’re saying about corruption is true, of course, but I wonder to what extent this is really a step forward and not just a nothing-burger from the opposition…
Well, it does seem to be already decided, anyway.
I’m curious; what party do you think will win the early elections? PSD? PS? Something else? I fear that this whole debacle might embolden Chega, which I think would be terrible… Though Chega has had some issues recently, so maybe they won’t benefit from this, I don’t know.
Who are you thinking of voting for? I wonder about Volt.
Sorry about all these questions, I just don’t have a lot of people that I feel too comfortable talking about Portuguese politics with, IRL…
I’m thinking about the trend over time when I talk of improvement, rather than just this one event as especially meaningful - 2 decades ago not a single politician in Portugal had ever been convicted of Corruption but nowadays governments can fall for suspect funny business before anybody is convicted of anything (mind you, it would be an even greater improvement if Justice was swift rather than the incredibly overwhelment and slow-moving thing it is in Portugal).
As for parties, I’m still on the sidelines though a cursory reading of the Volt site does indicate they’re aligned with my principles.
As for Chega, two points:
- First from my own experience living in other countries of Europe, that kind of party tends to get stuck at around the 15% of votes and if they ever get power they fail miserably since their entire schtick is to critize others from the sidelines for not doing things perfectly, so when they themselves are in a position where they’re the ones having to do things, they’re seriously bad at it.
- They’re not the only Far-Right party in Portugal: we also need to worry about IL, who are a Hard Neoliberal party aping the views of the most rightwing part of the Democrat Party in America (and probably the recipients in Portugal of the money Steve Bannon brough to Europe some years ago “to start far-right parties”) and who even had Privatisation Of Healtcare (i.e. the end of the National Health Service) in their original Electoral Program but took if of when it turned out that was wildly unpopular. The Fascist-style rightwing of Chega would be bad for most people, as would the pro-Oligarchy Democray-undermining ultra neoliberalism of IL.
2 decades ago not a single politician in Portugal had ever been convicted of Corruption but nowadays governments can fall for suspect funny business before anybody is convicted of anything
Fair point…
IL
Yeah, I don’t know much about them… The general idea I had of them was that they were libertarian. Sigh…
Because no one wants to work with Chega. No one trusts them with their luggage, much less with political power
Because no one wants to work with Chega.
That’s the reason the government is falling? I’m not sure that’s true…
No one trusts them with their luggage, much less with political power
Hilarious AND true!
Well it’s either that or we’ll end up being steamrolled by Russia, China or the US
Being able to defend your territory does not make you a “superpower” being able to step on other peoples territory does. The EU needs to build up good defensive capabilities, but it should refrain from offensive capabilities to project power like the US or Russia. Instead we need to focus on improving diplomatic ties with Africa, South America and non-China Asia to become the forerunners of a new Third World.
Okay, but let’s say one of our allies gets regime changed by Russia for aligning with us and not them. Do we help them? If we do, how is that not a proxy war?
BTW my opinion is that there are just proxy wars, like Ukraine.
A proxy war comes from a fundamental power imbalance on each side. The proxy is at the whim of the power behind them. If we have a globally distributed alliance of equals, then the power imbalances will be much less pronounced.
This is also why the EU should be a forerunner, but not a leader of such an alliance. It is crucial that there is no one nation or block “leading” the alliance, also not informally. We see the US being the de facto leader of NATO now risking the entire alliance falling apart and of course making any war in that context subject to being a proxy war.
Okay, but how do we avoid these situations? Let’s say we’re in this big alliance, and Kazakhstan becomes a big trading partner in an effort to rid itself of corruption and Russian influence.
Russia keeps trying to influence politics in Kazakhstan, more and more overtly, and when the Kazakhs elect a government who are fully committed to join our alliance, Russia invades.
Do we (the EU) defend Kazakhstan, which would be a proxy war in your definition, as without us they have no chance of even staying independent so the power imbalance couldn’t be greater?
This is not a hyothetical, but a close parallel of what’s happening in Ukraine by the way.
Such an alliance would not be lead by the EU. If it would lead to half of Africa, most of South America, most of West Asia and the EU to apply meaningful sanctions to Russia (e.g. not buying Russian oil through the backdoor and buying gas directly) that would be a strong deterrence w.o. sending military or weapons directly.
Yeah, I do agree. I just… I’d rather not be steamrolled and not be worried about international relations, you know?
Interesting times we’re living through indeed …
Too many interesting times. Life was better when it was dull, when politics was boring.
Do you know Ursula’s history of corruption? If so, how can you feel good about it?
Ursula is a muppet, but it wasn’t her decision alone, or even at all.
stares in jealous American
I think “World Power” is not that desirable. The US was a world power, look what they had to do and what culture they had to develop to become one. Same for the Soviets. Same for a surging China, becoming more imperialist by the day. Your emotions may tell you “yes!!!”, but the reality is - it will not benefit you much, it will mostly benefit your rulers.
I’d rather have the power of the EU in service of getting a proper, international organisation like the UN capable enough to do its job.
The EU is definitively a world power or great power. The EU might rise to the level of superpower, which is where the US is.
Being a great power just means that you can exert influence over events on the world stage. Having a meaningful say in how international organizations are run, or the ability to influence conflicts outside of your direct realm of control.
The EU is not yet at a point where no power can take a meaningful action on the world stage without considering how the EU will react to that action, which is one of the defining criteria of a superpower.
Despite having burnt an enormous amount of soft power for no reason, the US still holds a position where they can’t be disregarded. EU military spending patterns are changing because the US is changing it’s stance on a conflict they aren’t really involved in beyond a “superpowers are involved in everything” sense.Being either type of power has benefits beyond what it gives to those in control. In general, the leverage is used to effectively bribe the populace of the power. Pushing international organizations to prefer vendors from your country, driving business to it. “Thank goodness that agricultural development program bought their equipment from us, we had a great year, our jobs are intact and we actually hired more people”.
It also brings cheap goods preferentially.
The benefit to the people in control is that it simplifies distributing favors to the people who keep them there, which in part includes the general population. “I’ll let you buy these tractors from me on the condition you sell me every mango in your country for a decade. I’ll even give you the tractor money back over the course of the decade. If you don’t accept the deal no one will make a different one with you for fear of me not renewing my contract with them”.You don’t have to have our broken internal culture to be a power. That only makes it so people take our position for granted.
We tried that a few times, and war/imperialism crimes.
But this time it will be diffident. We is evolved now.
(Never mind the rising support of the alt-right parties in the last decade.)this time it will be diffident
will it be though?
The sarcasm was blindingly obvious there, did it really need the /s?
apparently i’m stupid
Europe needs to be strong enough to stand on its own at all levels, but I think it’s a pretty bad idea for it to become a neo-Imperial power in the style of America.
For all the great things of Democracy, the one thing people forget in their rosy propaganda-tainted view of it (living inside of it, we’re constantly bombarde by political messaging about its greatness) is that by definition even the most perfect Democracy only has the duty to represent the will of its citizens, not of people who are not citizens of that Democracy.
So there is no ideological element in Democracy to make it less nasty at exploiting people from other countries than authoritarian regimes.
All this to say that Europe shouldn’t get into the business of power projection like the US has done for decades (leaving a long trail of death, suffering and destitution all over the World, especially the Middle East and Latin America).
And I say this as an European and somebody who would stand to gain indirectly from Europe going systematically (it’s already done by businesses and some governments in it, just not openly and systematically) into the business of exploiting non-Europeans.
A peacefull when not provoked giant would probably be the best philosphy for a strong Europe, IMHO.
(Edit: for avoidance of doubt I want to state that for me Russia trying to advance westwards by invading Ukraine counts as a provocation)
For the love of God Europe, we need a world power that actually respects human rights, not outright rejects them like Russia, pretends to embrace like America, or outright rejects them while tankies pretend that China embraces them.
You’re looking in the wrong place. Several EU members have far right leaders already, many more are moving right. The EU (and UK) are about 4 or 5 years behind the US. Don’t confuse disagreement with Trump over Ukraine with meaningful ideological differences.
What do you define as “human rights”? Because I would say that the western ideas of them have failed pretty heavily especially when it comes to deciding who they are enforced for and who they are not.
I think we need to be more critical of past ideas as they are the exact ideas that have brought us here. Doomed to repeat it and all that.
I would say to learn from all of the societies you mentioned instead of simplifying something into “China bad” or “Russia bad” or “America Bad”.
It’s ignorant to look at a world power like China and throw out all of the good they have done for their people. There are absolutely things we can learn from their success and failure. But I guess saying this is gonna make me a “Tankie”.
As Carlin said. If God gave us “rights” he’d have given us a right to a good meal everyday. I think it’s important to not fall into western superiority. It’s especially important for us to rethink what we think of as “rights” because it has not been working that well, no matter the intention.
Ah yes, because the EU is a bastion of respecting human rights. Supporting genocide politically and financially is a great marker of that? 🙄
Compared to the US? yes
This is the entire point. The point is that Europeans use the US as something to point to in order to say “well at least we aren’t like them” while ignoring their own issues that are leading to fascist ideologies.
You might learn a thing or two from the Americans that are not brain rotted when they warn you about the reactionary ideologies that they see in Europe that are extremely similar to what has happened in the US.
You are not immune to what is happening in the US. You are absolutely following the same path as the imperial power that sustains you and Western society as a whole.
I am not someone that is talking in terms of “American exceptionalism”. I am someone extremely critical of that that is trying to explain the connections our ruling classes will align with.
I’m also American, I’m just ashamed of how poorly my country has treated me throughout the years
So you don’t know what you are talking about. Somehow Europe is a bastion of human rights while upholding Israel’s genocide (among many, many other things). Ridiculous idea, the EU and the US both disrespect human rights and the idea that one is, in anyway, respecting of them is ridiculous and stupid.
I think that if your point can’t stand on its own, and it only makes sense when compared to another country then that tells us all we need to know about if Europe actually respects human rights…
Europe? Are you fucking kidding me 😂
It always has been…
Cause it worked out so well last time…
Sad that picture doesn’t include UK - like it used to.
And will do again, if we get a grip.
UK is an a rosy position right now politically. Can play friends with both US and Europe, like a Cinderella at a ball
While being hated by both. Maybe hated is too strong. Disdain? Exasperation?
Moldova will join the EU, which will allow a Romanian and Moldovan union. They will be able to take over Europe and then the world using vampires and deadly lasers and stuff
On a tangent, is it possible to block/ignore lemmygrad and it’s users? They are obviously trolling here with good old whataboutism and russo talking points
Edit: corrected the stupid spelling of this stupid place
Heads up, I can assure you the Lemmygrad and Hexbear folks are not trolling. They are legitimate believers of Chinese/Russian/North Korean talking points, and some of them even live there
Welcome to the federated Internet
So real fascists taking over the biggest lemmy instance then?
Don’t know what to think about Lemmy right now tbh. Most of the content is quite based, awesome, fresh memes, and especially the programming stuff js top notch.
But the amount of russo shit and antisemitism is on another level…
One reason why lemm.ee might not be the best newbie instance, most others have lemmygrad and hexbear defederated (read: blocked). You can block them yourself in your profile settings, or you can move to a different instance.
lemm.ee works for me because I like getting into arguments but if you don’t enjoy that I would recommend basically any other instance.
That depends on who your instance is federated with. Personally I have never seen any posts from them.
I think you can easily block their instances, but sure it’s not the best starting point for new users.
Real fascists? My dear god you’re in a post that straight up wants a “make europe great again” and its us that are opposed “the real fascists”?
Europe has unconditionally supported the ethnical cleansing of Palestinians and parrots Herzlian talking points but we are the anti-semites?
Lemmy.ca is a nice instance if you are looking for one that blocks those instances. The fascists were here before people from reddit started moving over, but as people started coming over that aspect started getting diluted. Now you just have to choose an instance that doesn’t federate with them.
It’s everyone right to have an opinion, regardless of what their political affiliation is, as long as it doesn’t devolve into extremism.
They tend to smother level-headed discussions with their propaganda though. Sadly this is not how the internet works, and certainly seems to be a problem in Lemmy
Indeed and what I also love about federation is it is also within your rights to not give people a platform or be forced to listen to them. If people don’t like what they have to say then they will still be able to shout but only into the void and echo chambers.
You can always check the /instances endpoint of every lemmy server to see its blocked instances.
Awww, sorry the rest of the world doesn’t cowtail to your far-right neo-fascist delusional view of the world. It must be so hard for you, being exposed to differing views and all
If you are using the Connect app for Lemmy, you can block Hexbear and Lemmygrad in the settings. I did that as well.
United European Federation When?
Never Europeans are racist even against themselves 😹
Just for clarification, that’s EU and not Europe. Yes, i’m in the hole in the center.
So, already a world power.
It’s nazis all over here, that said, it can’t be worse than United States of Gilead right now
I’m not getting out of bed for anything less than spices or gold.
shakes baggie of chiles
