• PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
      8·
      1 day ago

      That would probably be some ultras, they are very desperate to be recognized by liberals as “true communists” unlike those “fake authoritarians”. Liberals of course don’t give a shit and immediately labeled ultras as tankies as well.

  • Kwakigra@beehaw.org
    127·
    1 day ago

    From Wikipedia:

    The term “tankie” was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defence of the Soviet use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions.

    I’ve never understood why there is any confusion over the word “tankie.” It applies to the pro-cop left. If a leftist believes that it’s necessary for cops to beat minorities and dissidents into submission for their society to function, they’re tankies. If they approach leftism in a way that does not involve state violence against civilians to enforce those ideas, they’re not tankies. To me there isn’t a lot of gray area.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
      10·
      1 day ago

      I don’t think your second paragraph follows from the first. The cited revolts were largely fascist in origin, for example the Hungarian revolt had the fascists lynching Soviet Officials and freeing Nazis from prison in order to assist with lynching Soviet Officials. Calling them “dissidents” or pretending they were ethnic minorities is ridiculous. Not answering fascists lynchings with violence would be incredibly terrible.

      The “rebels” were trained and supplied by MI6, and had marked the doors of Jews and Communists for extermination.

      Really curious what a “non-tankie” would recommend doing in such a situation. Giving the Nazis that killed hundreds of people flowers?

      • Kwakigra@beehaw.org
        4·
        1 day ago

        What you claimed is very believable to me, and I’m also prepared to believe that the reality of your claims is heavily censored in the English language. That being said I haven’t been able to find evidence to support that the primary drivers of these respective uprisings were fascist or Western. I have only found evidence of other causes. I have no doubt opportunistic fascists and Western governments took advantage of these situations for their own benefit, but the origins of these situations seem to have been genuine domestic issues which were met with state violence causing the situation to escalate. Would you link me to your sources?

    • audrbox@beehaw.org
      35·
      1 day ago

      I’ve always thought of them as the communists who think communists are somehow uniquely immune to the “power corrupts” doctrine

  • Carl@lemm.eeEnglish
    231·
    2 days ago

    True but only for terminally online liberals. I still haven’t heard anyone in real life ever use that word.

  • TheOakTree@lemm.ee
    173·
    2 days ago

    Tankie doesn’t really mean anything to me anymore. Even self-proclaimed tankies often have trouble defining it in a way that is consistent among leftist groups.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
      145·
      2 days ago

      I believe in reclaiming “tankie” in the same way as “queer.” Schoolyard bullies don’t really care to distinguish between the many different labels encompassed by LGBT+, and so they inadvertently invented a term that could be very inclusive and all encompassing, even if you’re still figuring out who you are, you call always fall back on “queer” to give the general idea.

      In the same way, the term “tankie” gets applied to people of all sorts of different left ideologies. There are significant differences between different leftist ideologies, but our critics don’t care to understand or distinguish between them, so I consider tankie to be a similarly inclusive term. Do you support anything that any socialist government has ever done? Do you think Cuba had an effective literacy program? Congratulations, you’re a tankie, welcome to the club.

      Note that my identifying with the term isn’t really an invitation for people to use it. But, you know, if people want to keep using it as this broad, meaningless term that lumps a bunch of people together, as I see it, it only works to our advantage as “tankies,” it pushes people towards us and helps us remember what we have in common instead of fighting over our differences. So I’m not exactly going to fight the label particularly hard.

    • Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de
      1112·
      2 days ago

      Tankie always meant a fan of authoritarianism but not of the nazi variety. And hand to hand with that goes hate for America, but hate for America isn’t enough on it’s own, it should be paired with love of Strong Hand Of The East.
      Tankie thinks China, Russia, North Korea are just swell, and not because of some underlying ideology, but because they have an authoritarian model of governance and generally in opposition to the west to some degree.
      And that’s the reason why it’s so hard to define for some people, boiled down to it’s definition, it’s very hard to spin into something universally good, so talking to a general public they have to do what authoritarian lovers from the other side of the spectrum call “hiding the power lever”, which muddies the water.

    • prototype_g2@lemmy.ml
      131·
      2 days ago

      Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

      On authority, by Frederick Engels 1872

      https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

    • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
      438·
      2 days ago

      Not really, no. To a capitalist, all forms of leftism is ‘authoritarian,’ because they consider private property natural and oppose leftists ‘stealing’ in.

      ‘Authoritarianism’ just isn’t a particularly useful term because nobody who uses is is ever actually categorically opposed to forcefully compelling people to do or not do things. They will always have a build in exception for what ever they consider to be ‘legitimate authority’, and what they consider justified authority will just depend on what political philosophy they ascribe to. So really calling the word just means “someone with a different political theory to me with regards to legitimate authority.”

      • AbsentBird@lemm.eeEnglish
        94·
        2 days ago

        There are people who are categorically opposed to forcefully compelling people, and many of them use the word ‘authoritarian’.

        It can be a useful term, not all systems are equally authoritarian. It’s a spectrum.

      • WolfLink@sh.itjust.works
        2129·
        2 days ago

        Just because some people might not use the term correctly doesn’t mean it isn’t a useful term

        I left lemmy.ml because there were too many people defending or denying historical acts of political violence. That’s what we mean when we say tankies are authoritarian.

        • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
          388·
          2 days ago

          If you’d actually read my post, you’d know my point wasn’t about it being used “incorrectly”.

          people defending or denying historical acts of political violence. That’s what we mean when we say tankies are authoritarian.

          Defeating the Nazis was an act of political violence, freeing slaves was an act of political violence, over throwing the feudal system was an act of political believe, driving out colonial empires is an act of political violence, enforcing property rights is an act of political violence, ceasing the means of production is an act of political violence.

          See? This is exactly, exactly what I was talking about.

          • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
            37·
            1 day ago

            Slaughtering protestors was also an act of political violence, but for some reason the moderators on this instance only like it when you talk about the US doing that

          • WolfLink@sh.itjust.works
            1124·
            2 days ago

            I mean we both know I’m talking about specific acts of political violence, but you are right in that I should have clarified.

            To be clear what makes it authoritarian is when it’s the state/government/leadership that is using acts of violence against citizens with political ideas that would threaten their power.

            And tankies get the name specifically from either defending or denying that specifically the Soviet Union used violence to suppress attempts to leave their union. When I was on .ml I also frequently saw defense or denial of China using violence that way such as the infamous Tiananmen Square Massacre.

            People from lemmy.ml love to shout that people who want them defederated are “capitalist” and hexbear has decided accusing people of being anti-trans is their move, but those are simply strawmen, and really poorly constructed ones at that.

            • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
              211·
              2 days ago

              I mean we both know I’m talking about specific acts of political violence

              Yes, which was my point. These definitions always have some implicit carve out exception to allow the kind of political violence that the person giving them agrees with to “not count”.

              To be clear what makes it authoritarian is when it’s the state/government/leadership that is using acts of violence against citizens with political ideas that would threaten their power.

              This would include collecting taxes, enforcing national borders, enforcing private property, all gun control measures, suppressing domestic terrorists and militias, implementing a particular voting system and then enforcing the result, conscription, and indeed, enforcing the concept of “citizen” vs “non-citizens” in the first place. But, again, you’ve cut out an expectation for political violence you agree with already.

              And tankies get the name specifically from either defending or denying that specifically the Soviet Union used violence to suppress attempts to leave their union.

              And here’s yet another post-hoc definition of tankie that does not actually line up with how anybody uses the term. Or are you willing for me to ping you to chime in every time someone calls me a tankie for something that has nothing to do with the USSR keeping Soviets in the union (incidently, there isn’t a country on earth that will willing let parts of it leave.)

              and hexbear has decided accusing people of being anti-trans is their move, but those are simply strawmen, and really poorly constructed ones at that.

              Sounds like you’re a transphobe who got called out.

              • WolfLink@sh.itjust.works
                28·
                2 days ago

                This would include collecting taxes, enforcing national borders, enforcing private property, all gun control measures, suppressing domestic terrorists and militias, implementing a particular voting system and then enforcing the result, conscription, and indeed, enforcing the concept of “citizen” vs “non-citizens” in the first place. But, again, you’ve cut out an expectation for political violence you agree with already.

                Yes, which was my point. These definitions always have some implicit carve out exception to allow the kind of political violence that the person giving them agrees with to “not count”.

                Sure, at some point it’s a spectrum. From the perspective of anarchism, any government is “authoritarian”.

                And here’s yet another post-hoc definition of tankie that does not actually line up with how anybody uses the term. Or are you willing for me to ping you to chime in every time someone calls me a tankie for something that has nothing to do with the USSR keeping Soviets in the union (incidently, there isn’t a country on earth that will willing let parts of it leave.)

                I got that from Wikipedia. What I saw more recently on .ml was more often about China, North Korea, or Russia’s attack on Ukraine.

            • Carl@lemm.eeEnglish
              222·
              2 days ago

              when it’s the state/government/leadership that is using acts of violence

              So when a corporation uses or sponsors acts of violence it’s not authoritarianism? I guess Coca-Cola-funded fascist death squads are just smol bean libertarians fighting the oppressive tankie socialists!

              You can’t even get your talking points in order. The main people on lemmy.ml are anti-capitalist, they would accuse those who would censor them of being anti-communist.

              • Binette@lemmy.ml
                1·
                17 hours ago

                I guess Coca-Cola-funded fascist death squads are just smol bean libertarians fighting the oppressive tankie socialists!

                Anarcho capitalists genuinly believe this lmao

              • WolfLink@sh.itjust.works
                214·
                2 days ago

                So when a corporation uses or sponsors acts of violence it’s not authoritarianism? I guess Coca-Cola-funded fascist death squads are just smol bean libertarians fighting the oppressive tankie socialists!

                Until Coca-Cola is its a government, no, that’s not authoritarianism. That doesn’t mean it’s good. Things can be bad without being authoritarianism.

                You can’t even get your talking points in order. The main people on lemmy.ml are anti-capitalist, they would accuse those who would censor them of being anti-communist.

                Yeah you’re right I was caught between two phrasings and I mixed them up. I edited it to fix it. Thanks for pointing out my mistake!

                • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
                  18·
                  2 days ago

                  Until Coca-Cola is its a government, no, that’s not authoritarianism.

                  Which was more authoritarian: slavery or freeing the slaves? Slaveowners were not the government, therefore, according to you, nothing they did could be considered authoritarian, right?

                  It seems pretty arbitrary to single out one single heirarchy and say that only that heirarchy is capable of being authoritarian.

                • Carl@lemm.eeEnglish
                  64·
                  2 days ago

                  the CCP is evil, Ukraine

                  Do, uh, do you know which country it was that invaded Ukraine?

            • GlacialTurtle@lemmy.mlEnglish
              211·
              2 days ago

              And tankies get the name specifically from either defending or denying that specifically the Soviet Union used violence to suppress attempts to leave their union.

              I fucking knew it, Lincoln was a soviet plant all along, fucking tankies.

            • folaht@lemmy.ml
              177·
              2 days ago

              Calling the 1989 incidence in Beijing the Tianenmen Square Massacre is like calling the 2021 incidence in Washington D.C. The Freedom Plaza Killings where the Democratic Party ruthlessly slaughtered innocent civilians after a peaceful protest, with the exception that the protesters in 2021 were more reasonable and less violent than the rioters in Beijing. Especially for the fact that when Washington decided to send the military in, the Jan 6 rioters did not decide to stay and try to block the US military from entering the Capitol or Plaza.

              I won’t be surprised to eventually see an actual equivalent type (demands from pro-palestine protesters for educational reforms) of protest happening in the US with far higher causalties as a result.

              • WolfLink@sh.itjust.works
                210·
                2 days ago

                First, what the protestors in Tianamen didn’t do was break into the government buildings with the intent to kill specific members of the government and to overturn the results of an election to install a leader of their own choice. That happened in 2021.

                Also the death toll in 1989 was much much larger.

                If you want a better US example, maybe something like the killing of striking mine workers in the US although I’m struggling to find an example of a single event that comes close to the scale of Tianamen.

                • folaht@lemmy.ml
                  11·
                  1 day ago

                  That’s because at least before any other student group decided to storm government buildings which was rumored to happen despite there already many police and soldiers present, one group of “peaceful” protesters decided to kill over 100 soldiers on the same street and one day before tank man decided to jump on a tank.

                  The “peaceful protest” was far more violent than the Jan 6 US insurgency was, since the US insurgents did not have such a violent group among them.

                  That happened in 1989.

                  It was the Capitol Hill Jan 6 insurgency or the similar Hong Kong 2019 insurgency but got way way more aggressive before any military action or counteraction was taken.

                  What Jan 6 and Tianenmen square share though is that once the insurgency took place the military was called in, but during the Jan 6 Capitol Hill riots, the rioters Capitol Hill rioters actually all left, not wanting to confront the military, while at least some of the Chinese insurgents on the street stayed and died fighting, while people on the square were peacefully evacuated.

                • folaht@lemmy.ml
                  10·
                  1 day ago

                  Calling an insurgency a peaceful protest is indeed revisionist if one were to do so.

                  And calling a revolt an insurgency and calling insurgency where rioters kill over 100 soldiers a peaceful protest with counteraction against such insurgency a massacre is also quite the revisionism.

                  The timeline of Tianenmen 1989 is

                  • large continuing peaceful protests for US-controlled school education
                  • groups of students or “students” killing soldiers on the street
                  • evacuating peaceful protesters from the square + soldiers killing insurgents still active on the street
                  • train station incident, unrelated protesters block soldiers with strict orders from entering train
                  • tanks arrive on square and start patrolling the streets
                  • Man with shopping bags stops tank on the same street the soldiers and insurgents were killed, then jumps on it, other students drag him off the tank and away.
  • eldavi@lemmy.mlEnglish
    151·
    3 days ago

    – and they both punch left; exactly as conservatives like to do.

    • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
      131·
      2 days ago

      The liberals are still doing this in 2025. We shouldn’t really be surprised I spose.

    • u_die_for_elmer@lemm.eeEnglish
      716·
      3 days ago

      I consider tankies to be on the right end of the socialist spectrum, so when I say it I’m punching right. They’re still comrades even if they are miss guided by state-capitalist governments. Cheers

      • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
        11·
        2 days ago

        Call it whatever the fuck you want. It’s working 100 million times better than this shit we’re doing. It’s lead to the most rapid increase of quality of life in human history for it’s people. Do you really think they care what you think about their government not being socialist enough?

        Poverty is not socialism. To uphold socialism, a socialism that is to be superior to capitalism, it is imperative first and foremost to eliminate poverty.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        9·
        3 days ago

        I think if you’re comparing “degrees” of left vs right, at that point you’re missing the forest for the trees. Ultimately, Anarchists and Marxists disagree on strategy and end goal, but both oppose Capitalism and Imperialism. At that point, there really isn’t a “more” or “less” left, there’s just differences in analysis and what must be done to get from A to B, as well as what B itself is.

        • u_die_for_elmer@lemm.eeEnglish
          3·
          1 day ago

          Agreed. I’ll come back to this when I’m not as busy. I made a simplistic argument and I’d like to expand on it. Cheers

      • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
        4·
        2 days ago

        If you’re one of those people who just considers “tankie” to be a synonym for “Marxist-leninist” then I suppose I agree, but I think the term is used too nebulously to meaningfully place on the political spectrum.

      • OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
        7·
        3 days ago

        I love it when people call a transitional economy state capitalist because it betrays a lack of understanding of actually existing capitalism and the role the state plays in it.

      • SlayGuevara@lemmygrad.ml
        61·
        3 days ago

        Lemmygrad admin here. I normally don’t look at reports from other instances but for this I had to make an exception. Probably the dumbest shit I have read so far lmao.

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
            6·
            3 days ago

            Reason: “state capitalist”

            Hence my reply:

            Because the Chinese state has fiat monetary sovereignty, it doesn’t function in the capitalist mode. It has no need to make a profit because it has infinite money[1]. It doesn’t need to extract surplus value from workers to satisfy investors, and it doesn’t even need to break even. The logic of capitalism doesn’t apply.

            Ultras fear the scroll.

      • davel [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
        31·
        3 days ago

        Because the Chinese state has fiat monetary sovereignty, it doesn’t function in the capitalist mode. It has no need to make a profit because it has infinite money[1]. It doesn’t need to extract surplus value from workers to satisfy investors, and it doesn’t even need to break even. The logic of capitalism doesn’t apply.

        Ultras fear the scroll.

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
    142·
    3 days ago

    Truly. Any moderate support for AES? Immediately labeled a tankie, I’ve seen Anarchists and even Liberals labeled a tankie. The term only exists to punch left from the Liberal POV, just like “Woke” is used to punch anything left of fascism.

  • __nobodynowhere@lemm.eeEnglish
    1411·
    3 days ago

    I’m not into that authoritarian stuff. Worshipping a fascist authoritarian state is not a leftist make.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
      172·
      3 days ago

      Communism and fascism are entirely different, and conflating the two has roots in Double Genocide Theory, a form of Holocaust trivialization and Nazi Apologia. The Nazis industrialized murder and attempted to colonize the world, the Soviets uplifted the Proletariat and supported national liberation movements such as in Cuba, China, Algeria, and Palestine. I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds.

      • Plaidboy@sh.itjust.works
        310·
        2 days ago

        If you look at the holodomor I think it’s hard to continue painting the Soviet Union as having uplifted the proletariat. Soviets starved their people to achieve rapid industrialization - a tradeoff that most of those who died would probably not have agreed with. IIRC most historians say that collectivization was a horrible failure and was not good for the working class.

        First hand accounts of life during stalinism make it clear that people had to develop weird mannerisms to avoid making it seem like they were disloyal/anti-party; basically everyone walking on eggshells all the time.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
          131·
          2 days ago

          What most historians agree on is that the famine happened, and that collectivization was botched. Kulaks burning their crops and killing their livestock, rather than handing it over, certainly accelerated the issue. However, outside of World War 2, where the Nazis took Ukraine (the USSR’s breadbasket), this was the last famine, and as such life expectancy doubled. I am sure that if anyone could go back in time and prevent the famine from happening, they would. The fact that famine went from common and regular to stable food supplies and no more going hungry is an important one.

          Moreover, again, this is just one aspect of a country where the working class saw free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, a dramatic lowering of wealth inequality with a dramatic raising in wealth, doubled life expectancy, lower retirement ages than the US from the State, women participating in the highest rungs of government, and more cannot be erased either.

          Taken in total, again, there wasn’t a country better for the working class in the 20th century, certainly none that did not owe part of their existance to the support recieved from the Soviets, like Cuba and China. There were many far worse, such as the US Empire and Nazi Germany, and the Soviets opposed both.

          • Plaidboy@sh.itjust.works
            38·
            2 days ago

            *there wasn’t a country better for the working class that survived

            Imo you can’t just ignore all the people who died as a result of the rapid industrialization and collectivization. And how great is your life if you have to change everything about what you say and how you act just to appease party officials?

            I don’t want to ignore all the great things that happened during the Soviet era. I think you’re right about better access to education and many of these other things, but there are so many asterisks.

            I argue that the same things could have been achieved without collectivization and without so much political violence. Social support programs are great, but they should be available to everyone, regardless of how much you support the prevailing political party.

            And just how sure are you that Stalin would have gone back in time to prevent the Holodomor? I’m unconvinced - it quelled an inconvenient uprising.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
              111·
              2 days ago

              I am not ignoring collectivization. I am noting that it ended famine in a country that had regular famines. I believe collectivization could have been done better, but industrialization of farming had to be done to stop famine regardless, be it Capitalist or Socialist.

              As for the hundreds of millions that got to live to their 70s vs dying in their 30s thanks to Soviet Policy, I think they were quite happy to not be dying en masse. They didn’t have to change everything just to appease party officials.

              As for whether or not these huge expansions in worker rights could have been achieved without Socialism, I believe the answer is no. The Soviets were the first to give such sweeping safety nets, and the Capitalist countries that expanded theirs did so in response as revolution became increasingly popular. Now that the USSR has fallen, these safety nets are eroding over time. Read Consessions. And yes, these were given to everyone, even immigrants without citizenship (including the right to vote if they worked there as well).

              As for Stalin, here is archival evidence suggesting that he would rather not have had the famines happen. I’m not defending everything Stalin did, of course, but purely calling this point into question:

              From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.

              Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.

              The Political Bureau believes that shortage of seed grain in Ukraine is many times worse than what was described in comrade Kosior’s telegram; therefore, the Political Bureau recommends the Central Committee of the Communist party of Ukraine to take all measures within its reach to prevent the threat of failing to sow [field crops] in Ukraine.

              Signed: Secretary of the Central Committee – J. STALIN

              Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.

              There are also isolated cases of starvation, and even whole villages [starving]; however, this is only the result of bungling on the local level, deviations [from the party line], especially in regard of kolkhozes. All rumours about “famine” in Ukraine must be unconditionally rejected. The crucial help that was provided for Ukraine will give us the opportunity to eradicate all such outbreaks [of starvation].

              Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.

              Comrade Kosior!

              You must read attached summaries. Judging by this information, it looks like the Soviet authority has ceased to exist in some areas of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Can this be true? Is the situation invillages in Ukraine this bad? Where are the operatives of the OGPU [Joint Main Political Directorate], what are they doing?

              Could you verify this information and inform the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party about taken measures.

              Sincerely, J. Stalin

              Basically, the Ukranian Communists appeared to have tried to save face and lied about how bad the situation was, especially Kosior who tried to say the “rumors” of famine were false in the face of Stalin telling him to get his act together and do something, even sending supplies. You could chalk this up to fear of Stalin or whatever, but it seems pretty clear that Stalin was anti-famine.

              • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
                4·
                24 hours ago

                I am not ignoring collectivization. I am noting that it ended famine in a country that had regular famines. I believe collectivization could have been done better, but industrialization of farming had to be done to stop famine regardless, be it Capitalist or Socialist.

                Interestingly enough, what caused Soviet agriculture to produce at first less food than pre-WW1 was (except WW1 and Civil War losses of course) the land reform and thus lack of collectivisation. Of course the land reform was absolutely necessary to forge and maintain the worker-peasant alliance and thus indispensable to revolution, but it lowered the efficiency by parcelation of big organised estates into small plots and by allowing kulaks to exist. Lenin was explaining many times that collectivisation and not individual farming is effective and necessary and Stalin explains in “Problems of Leninism” more indepth that in the 20’s the agriculture was slowly begin to improve by collectivisation and even at the end of decade the individual farming remain ineffective and kulaks still provide major part of food. So the famine struck in the time when Soviet agriculture still wasn’t even very Soviet and in vulnerable transition.

                So i wouldn’t really agree with how collectivisation was “botched” (though the problems did arise of course as expected by such huge unprecedented transformation of major part of economy), since the main problem was that they didn’t do it earlier, but again it was probably impossible due to post-civil war fragility of agriculture and necessity of maintaining peasant support.

                Actually, similar thing happened in Poland after 1945 - collectivisation of agriculture was impossible due to peasants being in literal slavery for over 300 years and disenfranchised for next 100, the land reform was strictly necessary to build socialism. Difference was, Poland try to collectivise by more slow means which was, well, slow, and would need around of century to collectivise the agriculture. Result was creation of strong rural petty bourgeoisie class that was needed to be constantly placated by privileges and 1989 completely undid any collectivisation by privatisation of PGR’s and plunging the collectivised peasants into abject poverty.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                  4·
                  22 hours ago

                  Thanks for the large write-up! I really appreciate it. I know I have a lot more to learn, so this was very helpful, comrade.

              • Plaidboy@sh.itjust.works
                27·
                2 days ago

                How do you defend the “blacklisted” villages? I don’t detect any remorse in the material you have cited, just concern over making sure his policies are being properly enacted. It seems pretty clear to me that Stalin considered the loss of life in Ukraine to be worth it in order to drive his agenda forward - why else would he have allowed policies that forbid farmers themselves from eating the food from the fields they tended? Why else would he have allowed policies keeping farmers from traveling for any reason? To ensure that they produced food for the rest of the union, which would focus on industrial output. You can argue that he was right - without such rapid industrialization, they almost certainly would have lost to the Nazis imo.

                Also, don’t conflate socialism with collectivism. I never said that the gains made in terms of education, life expectancy, etc. were possible without socialist policies. You can have socialism without collectivism/without stalinism. I think it’s much better that way.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                  121·
                  2 days ago

                  I don’t need to defend every Soviet policy, nor do I try to. I can merely explain why they happened and wether it has been fairly judged or not in the west, and overwhelmingly that tends to be “not.” My opinion on the Soviets is that they were overall the best, not that they never committed errors or crimes.

                  Either way, Blacklisting was originally a punishment meant to counteract resistance to collectivization, the Kulaks often intentionally killed their livestock and burnt their crops. The execution of Blacklisting was obviously more hit or miss.

                  As for Stalin’s role, it seems clear to me that when collectivization was met with outright hostility from the semi-Capitalist kulaks, that his goal was to finish collectivization and try to prevent further famine, not intentionally killing people. You said it yourself, if collectivization did not complete after it was started, even more famine would have occured. I am not sure what should have been done, but I don’t think Stalin looks like he would have chosen for famine to happen, more that if anything he would have rather had it go off without a hitch.

                  As for Socialism vs Collectivism, I don’t know what you mean. Socialism is a Mode of Production, characterized by Public Ownership and Planning as being the primary force of an economy. It isn’t synonymous with Social Safety Nets.