I’ve come to two realizations recently:
One
The sudden tankie willingness to believe that Trump cares about a cease-fire in Gaza, and got tough with the Israelis and then they capitulated which Biden could have done at any time, sheds some interesting light on how the tankies think. They accuse anyone who disagrees with them of shifting their realities around, such that anything Biden does is good, anything the State Department says is always true, even if it contradicts itself or basic common sense or reality. I always thought that this was just a lazy reality-free arguing tactic, but in retrospect, I should have realized that it’s a tell about their own thought process. Just like it’s a warning sign if someone constantly suspects their partner of cheating, or is constantly on an absurdly hypervigilant lookout for scams and people trying to cheat them out of money, this is a key revelation about the way Hexbear itself looks at reality.
Trump is a capable diplomat, if believing that lets them trash Biden. Trump cares about Palestinians, if believing that lets them trash Biden. The cart is firmly in its place in front, and everything else including the horse can follow along depending on what the cart dictates.
Two
Hexbear’s censorship, and wild hostility to anyone who comes to “their” place and tries not to toe the party line, really does do a pretty effective job of distorting the view of reality and consensus that their users are able to experience.
Take a look at these and compare:
Tankies= Republicans
That’s all you gotta say. They love the orange fucker.
To build off that, I was going to say it is easier for them to understand authoritarianism than liberalism. They more closely relate to using power to enforce will rather than consensus and damned the consequences.
Eh, I think that only applies to Hexbear. The ml instances seem to hate anything US (or western, for that matter) without picking sides.
Not in my experience, but ml seems less obviously pro trump at least.
They sure love to criticize the “west” but god forbid China or Russia gets called out for their savagery
Tankies are very much not Republicans
Extreme left and extreme right are similar since they both embrace Authoritarianism and government oppression.
As an anarchist, I take issue with saying the “extreme left” embraces authoritarianism. But I get what you mean.
“As an anarchist”
Lemmy has the weirdest people
My dude/dudette, you use Linux, grow some self-awareness.
It’s astounding how many Linux users engage with tools founded in left-leaning ideas while insisting politics aren’t brought into their fav.s.
I hate the conclusions Libertarian Linux users draw but at least they see the parallels.
I wouldn’t call myself an anarchist, but that doesn’t meant that I don’t educate myself on what these words mean… You should do the same, you might learn something.
Read Emma Goldman and Piotr Kropotkin.
I have been calling this out since my first interactions with those instances. They are heavily infested with right wing trolls making “leftist” noises. And the ones who aren’t actually trolls are either so blinded by their disdain for liberalism, or just too young to notice.
Yeah. I’m genuinely curious how many of them are right wing trolls, how many are useful idiots, how many are normal trolls, how many are subject to mental illness and will sincerely believe anything and yell it at everyone else because of brain chemicals, how many are some other category, just what are the details of the real demographics there. I wish there was a way to know.
And how many of them are people sitting in offices in third world countries being paid to diseminate pro-russia/china propaganda on social media.
They are left wing
Just extremely far left (the farther you go the less sense it makes)
Nah, there are very obviously a whole bunch of Russian trolls in all of these spaces. They legit just parrot Russian narratives about the war and US politics. It’s extremely transparent.
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They are not bots or trolls or foreign agents. Lemmy is already radicalised.
lemmy was literally started by radicals
yes
This is just cope. You don’t have to look hard to find people, on YouTube for example, making the same points. With hundreds of thousands of lefty followers.
They’re brainwashed and also fascists. They don’t stand for communism at all and never had.
Communism is pretty much tied to authoritarianism
In their mind it is. In theory, no.
In theory no but in practice yes. The problem with communism is that it doesn’t provide incentives to drive industry. If something works ok then it will stay the same regardless if there is a better way. The other issue is that to be a part of communism society there needs to be forced conformity. You end up getting controlled by the state. In communism nations many people died from both starvation and because they failed to conform.
Okay, if you define “communism” as “whatever the fuck the USSR/CCP/DPRK/etc. is doing” then your statement is sound. However, most people around here (including myself) define the word to mean something like “a classless, stateless, moneyless society” and sometimes then regard the statement “The USSR/CCP/DPRK/etc. is communist” as an outright lie. They often assume that the person making the assumed-lie is ignorant, actively trying to infiltrate leftist spaces by pretending to be a leftist (the way tankies do), or are actively trying to smear leftist ideas.
I’d like to remind everyone that which words we choose to use to express our ideas are usually far less important than the ideas those words express. So long as we agree that the things the USSR/CCP/DPRK/etc. did/are doing are bad, acknowledge that capitalism has caused a great deal of strife, and seek to make the world kinder and more equitable, I think we should be able to agree and work together.
Can you name a country that is communist then?
I’m not trying to smear. However, I’m extremely skeptical of Communism
I’m not here to say whether communism can work nor to explore methods/history of implementing it. The scope of my comment was limited to bringing into focus the semantics being used. You don’t need to be a communist to understand the extent to which capitalism has caused and exasperated the problems of the present.
Communism does not equal capitalism
I don’t get what you are saying. There is lots of gray. In communism there will always be a little bit of capitalism and in capitalism there will always be a bit of Communism. (Please don’t kill me Mr. CIA) Usually you don’t call it by those words but the concepts apply. (I suppose it would be socialism but that’s a charged word)
I mean, I think you and I agree. The foundational ideology of communism is sound. It’s just that the application is flawed because it relies on that “dictatorship of the proletariat” stage. Whenever during the transition that stateless, classless society the plan is to hand power to people in order to accomplish the stated goal, it’s always going to fail. Its where it always has failed and always will. Because that small group of suddenly very powerful people will not give up that power when the time comes. They will sabotage the progress because…well, powerful people don’t typically give up power willingly or peacefully.
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The left are free thinkers
Idk, there are a lot of leftist echo chambers. Please avoid anything close to the “we’re right and everyone else is wrong” argument.
But yes, agree with much of the rest. I also think there are a lot of trolls from China in the mix as well.
Yeah being a “left” doesn’t all of a sudden enable the critical thinking package
You make it sound as if the “left” in the US is as left as it should be and pushing it further is a bad thing. The “left” in the US are full on capitalism appreciators, even under the Obama admin which liberals look upon fondly large mergers and consolidation of power were allowed to happen. This country is lost if we act like one side is doing its job (doing things in the interest of the populace and not corporations).
In the United States being on ‘the left’ is arbitrarily just being ‘left of far-right’.
The ‘Radical Far Left’ is anything that isn’t devoted to capitalism. This isn’t a Republican talking point but the central prerequisite to American politics that thinks Bernie Sanders would’ve had executions in central park.
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Joe Liberman blocked single player from the start, this fun fact really hurt DNC Komissars and their online shills
That’s certainly part of it, is my guess. But it can’t be all of it, just a whole community of Russian trolls talking to each other. How many useful idiots are there?
And Dessalines likes Hexbear. Presumably he’s not a Russian troll. How many others are there, and how did they come to their decisions? I believed a bunch of dumb stuff when I was young. How much of it is that?
This is false. They’re not alt-right or agents out of russia.
Horseshoe theory is just always correct
Saying shit no one has ever heard of like “horseshoe theory” and trying to make the regular people who never heard of it out to be stupid or abnormal is exactly what outs you as a Russian bot.
Check this guy’s post history. It’s pretty clear which team he plays for.
I’m not a russian bot lol
touch grass. there ain’t no bots on lemmy.
Every one of the things you just said out you. lol
You’re hella paranoid dude. I’m not a bot
The majority of people on leftist spaces know what horseshoe theory is.
You mean obscure ATP group missions.
Settings ▶ Blocks
I’m just fascinated by it though. I’m curious about human behavior, and I think the ways that people get themselves worked into a non-reality view of the world in a big community that all agrees about it is a highly relevant topic for the modern world.
I won’t pretend to understand what’s going on over there completely, but I’m interested enough in it that I want to be able to observe it. From a distance.
If you want to understand and observe there is the podcast ‘Chapo Trap House’ which you can look into. Hexbear quite literally originated from its fanbase, and makes their antics make a whole lot more sense.
I don’t know… I appreciate the suggestion but that sounds a little closer to the sun than I want to fly.
You don’t really need to listen to the podcast itself, but knowing about it is really useful. Essentially the whole schtick is being vulgar to trigger those who are unable or unwilling to challenge the status quo.
The podcast does it better than the derivative of its fanbase.
The other Hexbear thing is they don’t have downvotes and encourage dogpiling in disagreement, which is a big cultural no-no for the redditor.
So the antagonization forms a feedback loop, understandably.
Hm. I have had people do that to me on Lemmy, quite badly. They’ll argue in bad faith, and then I’ll get irritated at them for it, and then they’ll say they’re just being wrong on purpose, so they can challenge the status quo, and if I’m irritated then they are succeeding. It just doesn’t make sense to me. I just have never heard of a people’s powerful movement that used that as the tactic, and had that type of thing be instrumental in its success.
There are plenty of people who’ve been extreme or shocking in their presentation to attract attention to the cause, without being abrasive cocks about it. The Yes Men did it, the Yippies did it. I did look a little bit into Chapo Trap House, and I definitely did like what little bit I read, so maybe you’re right. I’m just so skeptical based on see what their fanbase is like.
Of course, I think almost anything effective on the American left at this point is going to get assailed by all kinds of glowies trying to divert the conversation into hostility, infighting, and impotence. Maybe the podcast format lets the authentic stuff speak, and anything online and anonymous with mass participation is just too porous a medium to keep those efforts out, and so it’s inevitably doomed to collapse into Hexbear over time.
I just have never heard of a people’s powerful movement that used that as the tactic, and had that type of thing be instrumental in its success.
It is about breaking the default mindsets and forcing critical thinking into areas unallowed in most discourse. On one hand it does help people begin to dispel narratives people have been raised on. On the other hand it can just harden people against it and foster prejudices.
Most people I know in America willing to use the C and S word in politics know they will never achieve honest discourse in the current culture and climate. But that’s been changing more in the last 10 or so years than I have ever seen, for what it is worth. But, like, Luigi has done more than a podcast, Hexbear or any instance in that regard.
That’s the only instance I have blocked.
Just so much spam all over the all scroll…
It got old really quick.
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Some people are doomed to repeat the same mistake they are brainwashed to make over and over: picking a side in every scenario.
I tried to block them but they dont show up in the list, so I assume the instance that I belong to already took care of it?
What you’re noticing I think is actually a pandemic in modern society. People cannot fathom nuance. I dunno if social media put the final nail in the coffin of a long-festering problem, or if social media and the ensuing collapse in discourse birthed the problem alone.
Politics have become a team sport. All discourse has become a team sport. It’s binary. “You’re with me or you’re against me.” Or “information supports me or it’s rigged.” Extending that: “you’re my ideological enemy and whatever you think I think the opposite.” It doesn’t matter if it’s logical or it’s entirely contradictory. All that matters is getting to say “NO! You’re wrong and I’m right! You’re a [liberal, conservative, fascist, etc.]” Whatever serves their argument.
The complete inability to have logical discourse based in reality, is itself responsible for the larger systemic problems. When there’s no common ground because the ground is either “yours or mine,” and when it changes in every discussion, there’s just no hope to ever do anything about problems. And the problems are mounting. And the ownership class is capitalizing on this constant culture war bullshit—and I mean “culture war” in the sense of each “ideology” having its in group and everyone else belonging to the out group—to run wild on what’s left of this current paradigm.
It’s hard not to feel doom when realizing this foundational problem. It undercuts any kind of underclass solidarity, so the class war is really just an ever-worsening class slaughter.
There will always be people who believe absurd things. I just leave them the fuck alone, and hope they’ll grant me the same courtesy.
Cmon. If you haven’t already blocked hexbear you are just part of the problem. 90% 4chan garbage. You won’t miss it.
The political spectrum isn’t a line: it’s a circle. It doesn’t matter if you go left or right, once you go far enough, both sides meet on “authoritarianism.” Trump wants to be a dictator. Tankies love dictators. Social cohesion is infinitely more important to these people than how they get there. As long as there’s a government regulated “in” crowd and they’re part of it, they’ll justify any level of doublespeak, goal post moving and hypocrisy, and they’re willing to perform any amount of mental gymnastics to get there.
this is a ridiculous take, just entirely forgetting the existence of anarchists, it seems. by that logic, anarchists are the enlightened center now, by virtue of being as far removed from authoritarianism (and therefore political extremism) as possible.
also, how does that form a circle? if i go even further left than left-auth, would i go over right-auth, right, right-moderate, until i end up at… where exactly?
I mean, if you want a real genuine answer, it’s that simplifying the entirety of political thought into a binary is a rediculous premise to begin with, and highlights one of the core fallacies that the human condition leads to time and time again: that of false dichotomy. Calling the political spectrum a circle is exactly as absurd as calling it a line, and taking either of these paradigms to be literal and infallible is to grossly misunderstand politics.
My point is more that both routes, left or right, have a path through extremism into authoritarianism. Try not to take the silly analogy I used to communicate this point so literally.
right, my objection came more from you making it seem like extremism=authoritarianism, as if libertarianism isnt an extremist idea.
the second paragraph was mostly me having a bit of fun, though tbh i still dont see how a cirular political model holds any merit except that it gives one the ability to say: “look at those extremists, they are all the same!”
I do believe that extremism lends itself to authoritarianism. The deeper you are rooted into your belief structure, the more likely you are to believe everyone else has gotten it wrong, and the more likely you are to think imposing your beliefs on others is in their best interests. The circular model that I proposed is simply a way of highlighting this.
While I am sure this isn’t true of all libertarians, they tend to be ogliarchs (or wannabe ogliarchs) in sheeps clothing. We may have another word for rule by the rich and economically powerful, but I do not think the gap between them and fascists is wide enough to avoid the blanket of “authoritarianism.” I do think libertarianism is an extremist idea that just leads to a different flavour of authoritarianism, thus my point.
extremism isnt an objective thing though, just like centrism, its always dependent on the overton window. thus imo trying to tie any meaning more specific than “outside the frame of common political discussion” to extremism is a fools errant.
besides that, i think we simply speak on different terms. with “libertarians” i refer to both left wing and right wing, while your last post indicates to me that you are specifically talking about right wing libertarians (i.e not anarchists) correct? in that case i agree that this form of libertarianism inevitibly leads to rule of oligarchs.
I think this is something a lot of people here miss. The farther you move to the extremes the more reality gets distorted. Tankies are so far left that there views are wildly distorted. Part of the extremes is also authoritarianism but that’s mostly because that’s the only way maintain there limited world view.
Thoughts? Right on schedule.
