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This quote by TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com is a good thing to keep in mind. I’m not going to lock it because it genuinely seems to be helping some people. I’m getting reports though, so remember to be excellent to each other please.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
Edit: fixed author’s username.
I think the username ends peb not pep
Also you might want to pin your comment to put it at the top
It is at the top for my instance, it doesn’t work on some clients though. Thanks, I’ll fix his name.
Right :) top is variable by user settings, is it pinned and my client just doesn’t respect pins?
That’s what I’ve heard. It probably respects it if you were a sh.itjust.works instance member, but not if you’re not? That’s from people talking about it last time this came up.
Mine is set to sort oldest first and it comes up top for me, though I don’t see any other indication that it’s pinned… It being there is most important though…
I don’t know what to tell you, the mod tools for Lemmy are pretty minor. All I can do as speak as moderator and then it goes to the top for my instance and I think fellow instance members. All bets are off for other users. There’s no way to actually sticky or pin anything to top that I’m aware of other than to speak as moderator as a top comment.
FYI, I see it pinned as a top comment even from my instance
Also just an fyi that my instance and app display it as pinned (slrpnk and connect). Also my default is to sort by top.
Idk what it means, just figured I’d also chime in with some extra data lol
I also see this pinned on my instance.
Men‘s role in society is to be a strong provider that sacrifices for his family, community, and country from carrying heavy things, manual labor, to giving his life in war.
Lol at your username. That’s some real wishful thinking.
It’s what my girlfriend tells me regularly.
I’ve been scrolling the comments on this post for a while (longer than I should) and just want to say it is one of the most refreshing collective displays of thoughtfulness and empathy I have read online in far too long. Even the back-and-forwards where people disagree on details or semantics are still overwhelmingly positive, insightful, and respectable on all sides. Another comment here used a brilliant term “merciless insincerity”, and personally I’ve been leaning in a dangerously cynical direction lately about its prevalence. Although I know I am old & resilient enough to not let it capsize me I despise when so much lowest-common-denominator thinking hardens my shell and wallpapers a layer of apathy over who I really am (the angry-yet-optimistic teenager from the 80s/90s who screamed into the void about the climate-emergency, the corrosion of democracy by short-term vote-winning & fundraising, and - more relevantly - the toxicifying impact men and women have had on society - at interpersonal, familial, regional, national, and international scales - by regurgitating thoughtless archetypes and flagwaving in lieu of questioning reality from a fearless standpoint of “open-minded but critical, optimistic but sceptical, confident but fallibilistic”. Discussions like these are some of the very few bastions of antidote left for that cynicism and apathy. What blows my mind is that it is apparent a nontrivial proportion of you who are young (well, much younger than me) are introspecting and expressing yourselves about the subject better than I ever could. When I see the flood of toxic (and idiotically childish) nonsense almost everywhere else, discussions like these truly help bolster a dangerously scarce resource called “hope for the future”, and reinforces for me why about 99.9℅ of my “social online reading” time is spent on Lemmy lately. Gandhi said “be the change you wish to see in the world”, and it’s worth considering that what you are all writing here is a good example of you doing exactly that (even if you hadn’t realised or intended). It adds up, when groups of people give each other the chance to be truly unafraid (instead of “playing tough” - which merely broadcasts how truly afraid someone really is).
Could use some paragraph markers, but otherwise beautifully well put. Glad this is up top right now. Makes me excited to read the rest of the thread.
this comment section is a memorial of injured experiences.
tread carefully.
I prefer “monument to all your sins” but hard to disagree.
A few years ago I was struggling with body image and was starting to feel worthless and invisible in my marriage. When I tried expressing these feelings to my wife (really just trying to make an emotional connection) her response was curt and to the point: “You don’t have body image issues. I’m the one struggling with my weight.”
And that was it. I’ve never felt more alone in my life.
Hey you, you’re attractive. *Hugs
Thx. You legit got a smile out of me.
Dude, you are looking sharp today. Don’t ever think you can’t look good.
🫂
Super socially awkward and anxious in middle school and high school and was also bullied a ton. Girls would ask me out as a joke, and there’s no good response. If you say yes you’re a dumbass for thinking they’re actually interested in you, if you say no you’re gay and should kill yourself. Combined with being an impressionable teen with incredibly negative self esteem on reddit at a time where something along the lines of all men are rapists was a common sentiment, it really honestly fucked me up. I still am not comfortable with romance and intimacy with women to be honest.
in middle school, a girl in my grade died at summer band camp from a bee sting….
a group of girls called me to tell me she wanted to be her boyfriend. i declined, as it wasn’t the first time i had the joke girlfriend trick played on me…
but i guess the prank was, i was supposed to say yes, then be heartbroken when i found out she was dead…
instead i was heartbroken that anyone would try to do that to anyone.Female bullying culture is very cruel.
Children are just cruel in general. I have a giant scar on my stomach from an appendectomy gone very wrong and I used to get made fun of for it in the locker room. They called it my C section scar.
I tried to explain to someone that her all men are trash rhetoric isn’t gonna help anyone do better and the response was that they didn’t care, men should just be better or other men should be responsible for making them better but she sure wasnt. I think she grew out of that.
Im sorry :c
It taught me to stop feeling as a defense mechanism and I never really started again. Hooray for depression 🎉
I’ve shut it all down and can no longer relate to people. Hooray
I went through the worst depression of my life around 2017, tried to express these feelings to my gf at the time and explain why our romance was failing or why I spent half the day in bed.
Basically got told “poor you”, everyone has struggles, snap out of it and be a man. That definitely helped, and didn’t push me even deeper into feelings of worthlessness…
I’m doing ok now, but it was the first time I felt comfortable enough with someone to express those emotions, I was at my wits end. The response was eye opening, never again.
A given group of people are not a monolith. While we do share a lot of similarities, we also all have the potential to be a little different from one another.
I hope you get a chance to find someone that will allow you to be open like that again. Sharing those emotions and having someone their to empathetically receive them is one of the most gratifying things as a human.
Im sorry that happened, but never again what?
Like, “never again open up about a huge important part of my life to”
a) anyone, or b) someone you don’t know too long
Because only a) is healthy. I don’t think trying to mask your depression can work in a serious relationship.
deleted by creator
I don’t know if I want to blame the patriarchy or the toxic masculinity that goes with it, but crap. My ex was so not ok when I cried over the discovery of her affair.
She genuinely thought I was trying to manipulate her. I was “too extremely emotional” over it. We were highschool sweethearts, had a kid, and she always talked about how she was disgusted with her own mother for having an affair. Even to the point where she cut off contact with her mother until they ended that relationship.
“No man goes to bed crying because their wife cheated on them or sends nudes to the same guy 4 years later.”
There were red flags earlier than that. “Why are you crying over a movie?” (I always do at emotional bits). “Man up, no one wants to be with someone expresses sadness.”
What’s worse is that it’s pretty much why I don’t bother going out, or have much motivation to get back into the dating game. The patriarchy and toxic masculinity has ruined being human to me. I don’t want to be friends with people who cover up all their emotions. I don’t want to be friends with guys who are clearly over compensating. Then the girls turn around complain about these men being cruel to them, yet state things like this.
Then you have all the men who have this strange belief that they are owed women, and by behaving like that they get the women they are owed. I won’t take part in that. I will not hurt someone else just to satisfy my desires. If that means I don’t date, I’m much more comfortable being a good person and alone.
I also try to bring it up in conversation, and then people turn around and act like my refusal to participate in patriarchal behavior is anti-social. I had one person point out “technically, you aren’t getting any, even though you want it, making you an incel.” I was so shocked. Its not the fault of women I’m not out getting laid. Its men. It’s the patriarchy. It’s this system set up to isolate me because I have an intense emotional awareness.
“My ex cheated on me and rubbed my feelings in the dirt. How can I blame men for this?”
You can’t, if you think that women have any agency of their own lmao
Always remember that the patriarchy harms everyone
An asshole is an asshole is an asshole, don’t you dare act like it’s not these women’s fault if they have no compassion.
I never claimed it wasn’t. Shitty people are going to be shitty but they feel comfortable being shitty in the way that they are, in public, because the patriarchy has made that normal. I never excused her behavior, I identified it as being connected to a much broader sociological issue.
Hey comrade, I am seriously glad that comment like yours are starting to not be accepted anymore.
I somehow agree with you, the patriarchy harms everyone. But it does not help anyone to slap it in the face of men who are suffering, and also I disagree that a faceless concept has more responsibility than the people pushing it forward.
Honestly, ‘patriarchy’ is a terrible term that leads to so much confusion. Too many people use it as ‘blame men’ and forget that it’s supposed to be about men being culturally cast as perfect leaders and therefore punished for not meeting those impossible standards.
I have high hopes that the spreading acceptance of transfolk will start to break down the weird gender roles we’ve got, and maybe we can talk about some of this stuff more directly.
You know, I hadn’t really thought about the benefit that LGBTQ+ acceptance plays in this.
Of everyone who has been so supportive of me, it’s been my queer and non-binary friends.
I am a straight white male with money. While it upsets me to see women saying stuff like this post, I also know that I am not going to blame the women perpetuating the problem, because they themselves are victims of toxic masculinity and established gender norms.
Yeah this comment section has not brought me hope. I’ll admit that this may not have been the best place and time for this conversation but it needs to be spoken of, especially to the people who want to hear it least. I need these people to understand that societal issues cannot be solved at an individual level. You cannot simply be angry at a woman for being cold and heartless. This helps no one. The people who perpetuate patriarchal society won’t stop doing it because we get mad at them. They must be confronted about their behavior first and foremost with an understanding of the material conditions that drive them.
Yes, the perpetrators of patriarchy are responsible for its continuity but they do not realize this. They do not recognize the very existence of a patriarchy and this is why the world struggles to fight it. Often the biggest perpetuators of patriarchy are the most harmed by it and they don’t even know. They are as much victims as they are villains. How can we call them responsible on an individual level when patriarchy is the only thing they have ever known?
You cannot simply be angry at a woman for being cold and heartless.
Yes, we can. Patriarchy or not, there are some awful people and behaviours being described in these comments. And while the “patriarchy” no doubt plays a role in enabling that, people also need to take ownership of their behaviour.
Where do you draw the line? Where do you stop blaming patriarchy and start blaming the people who have a fucked up sense of right vs wrong?
A man that screams at his wife when he’s angry, that’s patriarchy or that’s on them?
A man that quietly belittles his wife?
A woman that does these things to her husband?
If there’s physical violence I’m sure you won’t repeat your previous message and say that they’re victims as well.
I don’t understand why it cannot be both? Yeah these people are responsible for their actions and should be confronted on it on an individual basis but their actions are also influenced by the society in which they live. We need to confront and discuss that too.
It’s terrible to see. It’s another feature of the patriarchy and toxic masculinity - blaming the victims. It’s why it has been going on for so long.
In a similar vein: Why do women not report rape? This is why. Because even women have been so oppressed by the system that they will even question “if they were asking for it.”
What you’re doing is the mirror of MRAs who pretend feminism means ‘women uber alles.’
You can stop.
Some women would be shit to men and women and fucking anyone and everyone even if we lived in a matriarchy. Just like some men are shit to everyone and some men and women are nice with everyoneat.
Assholes are assholes, that’s it.
I never advocated for a matriarchy. People will continue to be shitty to eachother but the deconstruction of gender based discrimination and violence would benefit us all. In order to do that we must recognize that what holds us back from this is patriarchy.
My point still stands, no matter if there’s discrimination or not, some people will continue being shit to others and pretending they’re shit because of the system we live in is removing all their agency. “It’s ok if you’re a bad person, it’s just because [insert reason that is out of their power].”
I never said it was ok and I never denied their agency
Yes. It is their fault that they’re supporting the patriarchy.
Sure, shift blame away and never help feminism 101 when it comes to men
Please read the rest of my comments
I am a man, I have been hurt by women who would not have done so if the society in which they live did not deem it normal and ok. While these women are responsible for their actions and should do better, they would not have acted this way if patriarchal society didn’t deem men to be lacking in emotion or “emotionally strong”.
You are doing everything but blame your abuser, you’ve literally shifted the blame to society itself
You can blame the abusor and want a society that would not create them
Exactly. All of the internalized misandry in the comments here is really disheartening.
What do you expect from a feminist perspective? Their philosophy already has an answer and that answer is men are the oppressors and women the eternal victim. I grew up the only man in a family of women, it was hell. I was always too loud, too big, too expensive because I couldn’t wear my sisters hand me downs and once the mental health issues being hammered into a mold I don’t fit began to crop up. Feminism contributed more to my suicidal young life than anything else. The only reason I am alive today is I found male friends, even the toxic ones helped more than feminists ever did. My toxic friends taught me to stand up for ME. Feminists told me to shut up and let people abuse me, to smother my sense of right and wrong.
Wore nail polish at work this week, because I’m a bloke in his 40s who works in an office so fuck it, why not.
Our HR manager - a man in his 50s who fairly recently sent out an email reminding us to talk about our feelings to help our mental health - asked me (half jokingly) if I was “going through some life changes”
I will be when I find a better company to work for.
I’ve thought about this a fair bit, and I can definitely recall a bunch of cases from primary school and high school when I opened up about my feelings and personal stuff; and it ended badly for me. It ended badly every time, and I reckon that’s why I basically don’t tell anyone anything about myself now as an adult. I don’t even share most stuff with my partner, or my family - such are the scars of past experience.
I’m sure this is similar for many people.
People are uncomfortable when a guy expresses negative emotions. Even those that process it well often seem unable to accept it. I hope you (and the rest of you in the comments) have either found a space or a person that you can be yourself around, instead of what everyone else needs you to be.
Things everyone must learn themselves because patriarchy instills in them the opposite:
- Women are people
- Men are human
-Don’t tag yourself as PantsuInspector and then get mad that people don’t respect your opinion
A classic reddit moment, reading some very heartfelt words on the emotional journey of overcoming the loss of a loved one, you start typing a reply to thank… PantSniffer69
I’m still really broken about the miscarriage a few years back and most of the response I’ve gotten from others has been in the form of violence.
You deserve better people around you!
Seriously wtf, where in the world??
Nebraska
Ah… somehow that makes sense. Condolences 😂🤙
This comment section is giving me the impression a lot of Americans are just vile people.
gestures broadly to the flaming hellscape
Ya think?
I mean, duh? There’s enough vile Americans that Trump was democratically elected twice after being known as an out and proud child molestor and rapist.
That doesn’t mean the patriarchy hasn’t caused issues for other parts of the world though, just that America can be viewed as its end goal.
You have no idea. Empathy is seen as a weakness. Especially the more power you have in a career.
You get an upvote for that. My hometown is a terrible place l.
I’m so sorry. My wife and I are trying to conceive and after two years of trying we got a positive. Then another a few days later. We were aware that we shouldn’t get our hopes up, but despite that how can you not? We were so excited.
Then the spotting started. Then another test still showed positive but it was so faint. It turned into desperately trying to bargain with the universe and convince ourselves that these signs didn’t point to the obvious. But the obgyn confirmed it a few days later.
For us it was only ~2 weeks after the first positive, and I can’t even imagine how hard it must be to lose it later on. I’m still devastated. We’re still trying, but I’m not sure how much fear is going to be mixed in if we manage to get another positive.
That’s a rough place. You don’t want to bring it up to often, nor allow any situation make them feel as if your sadness or grieving is due to them at all. Been through a situation like that, not fun. You want to be a rock, but also human, while not allowing that humanity… which is part of the problem.
That sucks. A miscarriage is basically losing a baby, if you’ve been thinking about it like one. I still think about life with the son that my wife and I lost in a miscarriage.
I’m so sorry for all those commenters having sad stories and being told to “man up”. That’s very sad
I might be wrong but I have a feeling that it is a very US influenced problem (so now a very English speaking country problem). Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m influenced because it is Internet and there’s plenty of Americans and everything is written in English.
Being born in a French speaking culture, I don’t feel that way. My friends don’t, my non French speaking friends don’t as well. Most men of my generation (millennial) that I have met could express emotions without much problems, and women would not react badly to it, but maybe I’m just lucky.
Of course, there’s always some shitty people, some overly manly jerks or non caring women, but I would say that they represent less than 15% of the population I’ve met in my life (data source: My ass).
So, am I wrong ? Am I influenced by Internet ? How is it for German/Spanish/Portuguese/Italian/Japanese/Whatever cultures ?
And if I’m right, well that sucks. How can we help ?
As a Portuguese (that has also lived in a few other countries in Europe) I would say that it’s more that there is a range of emotions that men can express without that being frowned upon were certain things are still frowned upon if you show them openly (mainly around sadness) though for example openly showing tenderness for your partner or children is expected and even approved (unlike certain other cultures were men are expect to be distant).
Mind you, in some cultures the limits on expression of emotions or selectivity about which emotions you are expected to express is pretty high for both men and women (for example, the Dutch in general tend to refrain from expressing much emotion to strangers) and in some cases there is even such a strong expectation that you react in certain ways that it leads to people in general faking expressions of emotion (the English upper and upper middle classes are pretty big on showing the “appropriate” reaction independently of feeling it).
I would say (from contact with Americans and consuming some American media as well as having lived in England) that the expectations on what emotions people should be expressing are quite different and in England they’re even very much defined by people’s social class (for example, the “English Gentleman” is entirely a façade - all about what you show, not at all about what you think - and occupies the same place in terms of male behaviour expectations for traditional old-money upper class English men as the bossy slightly-angry assertive go-gotter seems to occupy in the US).
So far I generally have seen a tendency for frowning upon grown up men expressing sadness for themselves (though in some countries, not for expressing sadness in empathy with others and their pain, especially if they’re close family) and have also noticed equivalent expectations on the expression of emotion by women (for example, it seems to me that middle and upper class English women have a massive weight of social expectations on them in terms of what they’re expect to show to others - including the emotions they express - in lots of situations, and a lot of it is about reacting with the “appropriate” emotion in some situations even if they don’t feel it)
I dont think it is very US influenced problem.
Yeah nobody has ever accused Spain Italy japan India china Pakistan Afghanistan Iran Iraq Egypt…of behaving similarly, just the commonwealth and the Yankees. You’ve cracked the code.
I have been dumped for not expressing emotion, and crying, due to tragic things happening.
