• FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      9410·
      9 days ago

      (in a similar vein)

      There is a third choice, where you say both are bad (ie. anarchists and pure marxists). But most people on lemmy.ML are Marxist Leninists (ML) who simp for authotarian states that call themselves socialist, like Russia, China, and North Korea.

      • cqst@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        109·
        9 days ago

        Strawman meme. I don’t like Biden and Obama not because they are war criminals, but because they are puppets of the bourgeoisie ruling class and their interests.

        (ie. anarchists and pure marxists).

        Who’s a pure marxist?

        who simp for authotarian states that call themselves socialist, like Russia, China, and North Korea.

        Russia does not call itself socialist it is a capitalist oligarchy created out of the ashes of the USSR by the USA (Clinton + Yeltsin).

        China and North Korea are socialist countries that are largely victims of Western imperialism. They are some countries that offer significant resistance to the western bourgeoisie imperialist order.

        • FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          391·
          9 days ago

          Pure Marxist, Classical Marxist, Orthodox Marixst, whetever you want to call people who follow Marxism without Leninst or other authoritarian leaning interpretations.

          They are the only countries who resist the western bourgeoisie imperial order

          By trying to create their own imperial order. Nazi Germany also resisted the western imperialist order by trying to create their own imperial order.

          Your point about Russia not even pretending to be socialist is very much true. Which makes it more baffling that some people on ML support it. Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?

          • cqst@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            47·
            9 days ago

            Pure Marxist, Classical Marxist, Orthodox Marixst, whetever you want to call people who follow Marxism without Leninst or other interpretations.

            Interesting that the only actual examples of Marxist countries are those that followed the Leninist model.

            Nazi Germany also resisted the western imperialist order by trying to create their own imperial order.

            Nazi Germany had an ideology that called for the extermination of millions of people. China and Russia do not.

            Your point about Russia not even pretending to be socialist is very much true. Which makes it more baffling that some people on ML support it. Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?

            Can’t speak for ML, but Russia is a victim of US imperialism and offers resistance to the world order. It’s not “arguably worse” then the West, it is a result of the actions of the west that Russia exists in its current form.

            • TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee
              296·
              9 days ago

              Literally ignoring the slaughter of Uyghurs and Ukranians, never mind how China is essentially building up the hate speech against Japan and Taiwan within the populace through their state controlled social networks. Get back to us when you can criticize China in the same way. Same for Russia, extreme jail sentences are dished out for anyone who criticizes Putin. You are too much of a caricature, and exactly what the meme refers to.

              The USSR was a victim of trying to outimperial an imperialist power and going bankrupt, and now it’s an oligarchy with Putin at the top and any serious opposition dead and out the window / irradiated with polinium / poisoned by Novichok. China has literal execution vans driving around the country, has extended its secret police deep state overseas to intimidate Chinese who don’t play ball, and constantly rewrites its map to expand to land they want to claim as theirs. They are in border disputes with India, they are actively preparing to invade Taiwan, they have blockaded the island several times now, they have cooperated to cut undersea cables, have militarized fishing fleets that migrate world wide and bully local fishermen and exhaust the local stocks. And all you have is that raging desire to whatabout “b-b-but the US does it / does worse!” right about now and a whole bunch of rhetoric that makes you a puppet of it.

              Russia is where it is at because it has chosen this road. Before Putin tried to use the myth of restablishing USSR to enlarge the rule of his oligarchy, it was well on its way to being quite influential in Europe, so much so that it was a major partner of Germany. Russia chose conquest and sides with dictators who exploit their people. It’s telling that the US is at its worst when it has the people who collude closest with Russia.

            • FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              253·
              9 days ago

              Interesting that the only examples of Marxist countries followed the Leninist model

              Perhaps because in China, Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, anarcho-communists and anti-authoritarian marxsist fought the revolution alongside more authoritarian branches in “left unity” but were later brutally murdered by the authoritarian branches.

              socialist world order

              I’m not okay with a world order supported by countries like China and North Korea, pretending to be “socialist” while having murdered anarchists, LGBT people, people with disabilities and ethnic minorities.

              • cqst@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                44·
                9 days ago

                I edited my comment, sorry, but…

                Perhaps because in China, Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam, anarcho-communists and anti-authoritarian marxsist fought the revolution alongside more authoritarian branches in “left unity” but were later brutally murdered by the regimes.

                At least they are AES. Just because they made mistakes in the early years of formation of the country, doesn’t mean you throw the whole country away.

                pretending to be “socialist” while having murdered anarchists and people with disabilities and ethnic minorities.

                Socialism is just when the workers own the means of production. Socialist countries can engage in humans right abuses and war crimes, it doesn’t make them not socialist anymore.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
            1520·
            8 days ago

            The number of Marxists who explicitly reject Lenin make up a tiny minority of the overall number of Marxists globally, and the ones who do so reside almost exclusively in Western Countries. Trying to uphold rejections of Lenin’s expansions on Marx’s original writings as “pure” doesn’t really fit with that.

            Secondly, no Marxist supports the Russian Federation, they see it as a horrible Capitalist regime that is temporarily working against the United States out of desparation. The concept of “critical support” is accepting that someone you entirely disagree with ideologically can be fighting a shared enemy, no more and no less.

            Do they just support anything that isn’t western even if it’s arguably worse?

            Critically support, somewhat, and the argument is that in a geopolitical context the US is more dangerous to Socialist movements than countries opposing US hegemony at the moment, and that once US hegemony is toppled these countries that once had “critical support” can be turned into the next enemy to be fought, assuming they don’t come to Socialism before then. The very fact that you say which is worse is “arguable” lends validity to the concept of critical support, as the alternative is further US domination of the Global South.

            Even then, Marxists are divided on Russia with respect to whether or not to even critically support it. The notion that there are Marxists that support the Russian Federation outright as an example of Marxism is fantasy.

            • Zagorath@aussie.zoneEnglish
              65·
              8 days ago

              Ok, so if I’m understanding this correctly, you’re supportive of the actions of countries that oppress their own people (e.g. Russia’s anti-LGBT+ laws, China’s oppression of Uyghurs and Tibetans, etc.), aggressively invade other countries (as Russia is doing in Ukraine, as China sort of did with Hong Kong’s semi-independence and is threatening to do to Taiwan, not to mention their enforcement of their claims in Vietnamese and Filipino waters), without being supportive of the countries themselves. Because you think that those countries causing harm to the western world is likely to eventually lead to the west doing less harm to the developing world, and/or help accelerate the proletarian revolution in western countries?

              Is that a fair (in content, if not in tone) assessment of your stance?

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                44·
                8 days ago

                I wouldn’t say that’s a fair assessment of my comment, plus I very specifically did not give my stance as my goal was to dispell the myth that any Marxists approve of the Russian Federation’s Capitalism, ultranationalism, reactionary social views, etc. I don’t want to give my personal stance here, as

                1. That would take far too long for a simple Lemmy thread to convey with any real complexity, and

                2. What I personally believe doesn’t matter here, it wouldn’t lead to productive conversation to begin with as Marxism is not a monolith (which was the central point of my last paragraph)

                • Zagorath@aussie.zoneEnglish
                  62·
                  7 days ago

                  Ok, I guess you’re a lost cause then. Your comments in this thread had me almost thinking I was speaking to someone reasonable, but nope…just typical tankie bullshit.

        • L/nerd@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          343·
          9 days ago

          ain’t no fucking way this fella’s calling china and north korea resistance to the bourgeoisie and imperialism

  • lugal@sopuli.xyz
    349·
    9 days ago

    Stalin says to Kropotkin: “The difference between us is that you’re an aristocrat while I’m from the working class.”
    Kropotkin answer: “True, but we also have something in common: We are both class traitors.”

  • orca@orcas.enjoying.yachts
    181·
    9 days ago

    Simping for any government leadership is just gross. These people don’t actually care about protecting the working class; they just want power, money, and recognition. As soon as you put a human into that role, they corrupt in one way or another. It’s why I clarify that I support the struggling working class under any ruler. The fight is always about them and ensuring they have human rights and a right to self-determination.

    Every person I’ve met in my lifetime that lived under communism had nothing good to say about it, and they were all working class. Some pasty white dudes in America don’t know shit about that and never will. They get into a fantasy loop because living under capitalism fucking sucks, and dreaming about something perceived as better is understandable.

    I recommend people read Marx and keep trying to unite the working class. Take the good pieces and stop idolizing people. As soon as you idolize a person, you are incapable of being able to identify when they do or say something terrible.

  • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
    46·
    7 days ago

    So many US empire simps here mistake opposition to their evil, and counterproductive diminishment of Americans and Europeans who simp for the empire, as supporting the Russian non-empire who needs to defend itself, and understands fully, despite any absurd propaganda to the contrary, that it needs to defend itself from US empire attempting to demonically diminish it.

    Your propaganda bubble means you cannot and will never have nice things, including any climate supporting human sustainability. Heads are so far empire ass, that advising you it stinks up there, only makes you understand it as an order to move to Russia.

    • djsoren19@yiffit.net
      15·
      9 days ago

      That’s kinda the most insane part about tankies supporting Putin to me. Russia is basically Reagan’s wet dream right now, their entire government and economic system was built in the image American capitalists wanted. To support Putin is to support the Western hegemony, but since Russia was the Soviet Union once, Tankies just give it a free pass? Wtf?

  • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
    1853·
    9 days ago

    “America should stop sending bombs to its puppet” is not supporting Russia.

      • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
        819·
        9 days ago

        Those bombs are blowing up people in Ukraine, statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is.

        Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine? Has that been true one single time since WWII?

        There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.

        • germanatlas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          242·
          9 days ago

          Oh, how can Ukraine end the war without essentially giving up and letting Russia win territories through this imperialistic war?

          • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
            522·
            9 days ago

            Its only choice is how many of it’s kids they want to send into a meatgrinder trying to hold onto the Russian-speaking territories whose people it didn’t seem to like very much before the invasion, and it seems to like even less now.

            There’s no realistic way for Ukraine to push Russia out, let alone deal with the resulting insurgency. Same applies if Russia tried to hold the Ukrainian-majority territories. Actually they’re probably in for an insurgency either way given their conduct.

        • wandermind@sopuli.xyzEnglish
          211·
          9 days ago

          statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is

          Surely you understand the very different nature of America’s recent conflicts (air strikes on small numbers of militants living among civilians) to the war in Ukraine (frontlines where civilians have been evacuated and every building has been destroyed). Or taking your numbers of 10 to 140 civilians for every enemy combatant, are you suggesting that Ukrainian soldiers have killed on the order of a million to ten million civilians as “collateral damage”?

          Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine?

          I believe that is irrelevant to the Ukrainians. They are happy to get any support they can to help fight off their would-be oppressors. Whether or not America is interested in improving the conditions for the people of Ukraine, it only takes one look at Russia and then at the EU to see where the common people have a better standard of living.

          There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.

          Of those three, only Russia can end the war unilaterally with no downsides to any party. Ukraine can only end the war unilaterally if they want to be subjugated under Russian oppression. I fail to see how America could end the war unilaterally. Even if they cut all military support to Ukraine, Ukrainians will keep fighting because they do not want to be ruled by Russia.

    • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
      1310·
      9 days ago

      “America should stop sending bombs to its puppet” is not supporting Russia.

      It’s like saying lobbying to continue the usage of fossil fuel is not supporting oil company.