• Knusper@feddit.de
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    177
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    1 year ago

    This is specifically Bavaria. They also recently found out that their vice president has a past as a Nazi and the reaction of their president was essentially “Oh no. Anyway…”. So, yeah, if you considered visiting the Oktoberfest, maybe reconsider.

      • Knusper@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        39
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Eh, I don’t expect random tourists to be locked up by the fascists, nor do I necessarily expect the not-quite-fascists to distance themselves from the fascists, just from losses in the tourism industry.

        I’m mostly just saying, there’s tons of places you could be traveling to and “drinking beer with fascists” isn’t quite as attractive anymore.

    • hoshikarakitaridia@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      92
      ·
      1 year ago

      Kind of. Iirc it’s a very controversial practice and whenever the police pulls it out in a public case it gets protested again (for good reason). Also, even if the practice is legal right now, there’s a lot of limitations to it. Obviously it’s nudging the ethical boundaries of police work either way.

      • SokathHisEyesOpen@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        33
        ·
        1 year ago

        Maybe they should arrest everyone that might protest against this before they arrest the other people that might protest against climate change. But then people might protest against that too. I guess everyone is under arrest! You’re all under arrest. Get in the hole!

    • stergro@feddit.de
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      51
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Oly in Bavaria. In every other German State this can only be done for a few days max in extreme situations.

    • alvvayson@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      39
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      1 year ago

      I can’t read German, but we have a similar legal system in the Netherlands.

      Most likely, these people committed some crime during a previous protest, such as illegally entering private property or vandalism. Often they will get sentences that are conditional.

      If there is evidence to believe they are conspiring to commit a similar illegal act, then the conditional part of the sentence gets triggered.

      • Square Singer@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        55
        ·
        1 year ago

        Nope, it’s actually only that the police has reason to believe that they might commit a crime.

        No need for them to be prior offenders or anything. The police can arrest anyone at any time if they believe you might commit a crime. And even comparatively minor things like blocking traffic counts.

          • SokathHisEyesOpen@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            10
            ·
            1 year ago

            “Okay, so what cool plot idea do we use to determine who might commit crimes?”

            “IDK, just anyone maybe? People who use the internet?”

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            18
            ·
            1 year ago

            It doesn’t sound like it. Conspiracy means there’s documented evidence of a plan and motive to commit a crime. This doesn’t seem like it meets that standard.

            • Neuromancer@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              Thanks. I have no clue about German law. Oddly even though America has a large German population historically, our laws are based on English, French and Spanish laws.

          • Square Singer@feddit.de
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            The difference in regards to a conspiracy charge is that you don’t need a conspiracy behind it.

            In Germany, there are actually 18 different laws regarding this, since that part of the law is federated. So each state of Germany (plus the federal police and the federal criminal police) has it’s own law regarding under what circumstances they are allowed to arrest someone before they committed a crime and for how long.

            Originally, these laws had two purposes:

            • Stop someone from committing a serious crime
            • Stop someone from doing harm to themselves

            And as such, these laws used to have tight limits on when they can apply and for how long people are allowed to be arrested.

            A case could be made for these laws. E.g. if someone announces online that they are going to shoot kids at a school, it would be totally justified to quickly bag that guy before he kills children. Waiting for a court order might not be fast enough to save the would-be victims.

            But then they started to expand the reasons why someone can be arrested and for how long.

            In Bavaria, for example, it’s enough that someone carries items that can be used for criminal purposes. And there they can jail people for up to two months without a charge.

            There have been cases where someone was put in jail for two months for carrying items like crowbars or ropes in their backpacks.

        • Kalash@feddit.ch
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          8
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Well they did identify themselves as members of a group that publicly announced it would continue to commit crimes.

            • Kalash@feddit.ch
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              It’s really something for the lawyers but it could be considered “Nötigung” (§ 181 StGB) and/or “Gefährlicher Eingriff in den Straßenverkehr” (§ 315b StGB).

              Pretty sure if it’s in the StGB it’s a “crime” (Straftat).

            • SheeEttin@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              In English, at least for the US, there are typically only misdemeanors and felonies, and both are crimes. There are also violations, but those are usually civil, not criminal (parking tickets, for example).

              • Square Singer@feddit.de
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                1 year ago

                Sorry, mistranslation. I meant violations. Over here we only split into violations and crimes.

                Violations cover most things done with a car/in traffic without actively harming someone.

                • SheeEttin@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Yeah, in English (in the US, generally) we’d call that a civil violation. Or a civil action where a lawsuit is brought by a private citizen, like suing someone for damaging your property. It’s against the law, but probably not going to be prosecuted by the government.

    • Dojan@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      26
      ·
      1 year ago

      There is a law that lets the police take people into custody to prevent terror attacks, but that’s not the case here.

      Complaints have been lodged before, but hitherto dismissed. And final clarity on the legality of the procedure is still pending.

      It helps to read the article.

      • GenEcon@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        27
        ·
        1 year ago

        but that’s not the case here

        But this is in fact how the police argues. Climate protests are terror attacks (since they disrupt traffic) and therefore this is justified.

        Pretty sure the Bundesverfassungsgericht (basically our supreme court) will shut this practice down – just like all the other times Bavarian laws have been ruled unconstitutional – but Bavaria doesn’t care. They scrap the law and replace it with a similar unconstitutional version and wait 2 years until the Bundesverfassungsgericht rules it unconstitutional and so on.

        • Haui@discuss.tchncs.de
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          16
          ·
          1 year ago

          It’s basically our texas or florida, depending on your pov. It’s a place with great nature, interesting culture but also very crude beliefs and you either like the culture or you dont. Most importantly, police is said to be a pot rougher over there and politics is pretty conservative as well.

  • anarchotoothbrushist@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    68
    ·
    1 year ago

    English translation (from Google Translate):

    Last generation: 27 climate demonstrators in Bavaria were preventively imprisoned

    In the run-up to the IAA motor show, the police in Bavaria took activists from the last generation into so-called preventative detention. The procedure is very controversial.

    By Kai Biermann

    September 2, 2023, 4:14 pm

    According to Last Generation, Bavarian authorities have currently put a total of 27 supporters of the group in prison without trial or verdict. This means that the number of activists in preventive detention has almost doubled, the group writes in a statement. They are therefore being held in the Stadelheim and Memmingen correctional facilities.

    A large number of them were apparently taken into custody in connection with the IAA International Motor Show, which is scheduled to take place in Munich from September 5th to 10th. The last generation had announced protests against the fair. According to Last Generation, at least 16 of those affected are in custody until September 10th.

    Eleven more are expected to serve longer sentences. According to Munich police, ten of them were taken into custody during a blockade on Friday. The Munich district court then ordered that they remain in prison until September 30th.

    Nowhere as long as in Bavaria

    Legally, this police approach is called preventive detention because it is not detention for a crime that has been committed. The police laws of the different states allow this for different lengths of time. In Bavaria, up to one month in prison is permitted, which may be extended by a judge for a maximum of another month. In other federal states, however, it is usually only a few days.

    The so-called preventive or preventive detention is very controversial. The relevant laws were originally created to prevent terrorists from carrying out attacks. However, this form of detention is now also permitted in the case of the “imminent commission or continuation of an administrative offense of considerable importance for the general public,” as the Bavarian police law states. Lawsuits against this have so far been rejected in Bavaria. However, a final clarification about the legality of this approach is still pending.

    This form of deprivation of liberty is all the more problematic because the protesters will not face imprisonment if they are convicted for a blockade. The corresponding procedures regularly only end with fines.

    Carla Rochel, the spokesperson for the Last Generation, writes in the statement: “The question we as a society have to ask ourselves at this moment is: Do we think it’s okay that protest for all of our basic right to life means prison instead of climate protection is answered?”

    • jet@hackertalks.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      25
      ·
      1 year ago

      Thank you for the translation. This is exactly why people need to be wary of tools used against bad actors, that will then be used against everyone. A tool in the toolbox will be used by the police. Slippery slope is real. Once you establish precedent the tool is useful, you’ll see it again.

      • Aceticon@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Bad actors are everywhere and are especially drawn to positions of power (normal people see life-changing power over others as a major responsability, hence a burden).

        This is why you limit power concentration on any single individual or organisation, have checks-and-balances on power and have higher demands of transparency and reporting one those with power than on run-of-the-mill citizens.

        Of course the assholes drawn to power will do everything they can to subvert, nullify, remove or bypass those mechanisms and the reasons why we see right here in how these people (never forget, organisations are not sentient: it’s always people making decisions) because they could choose to use these kind of laws that break the spirit of the Rule Of Law in democracies - which we were told were for use against terrorists (a very specific type of mass murder) - against demonstrators who have not even committed an actual crime and whose history indicated that the biggest crime the would ever commit would be mild property damage, something nowhere near the range of actual murder, much less mass murder.

      • inasaba@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        In Canada I’m very wary of the current trial against the leaders of the Freedom Convoy for this reason. Popular sentiment at the time of their protest was that they were bad for blocking the road, and what comes from this trial could set precedent that could be used to criminalize climate and social justice protests in the future.

          • inasaba@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I am well aware. But if precedent is set that protesting in the streets won’t be allowed going forward, it will have negative ramifications for leftist movements.

    • Aceticon@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      20
      ·
      1 year ago

      Oh, look those of us that were pointing out the risk of abuse of all those high-overreach laws passed in the aftermath of 9/11 during peak “terrorist scare” (even though more people died from falling in their bathtubs than from terrorist attacks) are once again proven right.

      What! A! Surprise!

    • 30p87@feddit.de
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      1 year ago

      To be fair, in this case 16 people are already free since yesterday. The other 9 have been taken into custody while demonstrating. Not because of the demonstrating itself, but for various reasons, ranging from resistance against the police to cases where they technically endangered someones live by blocking emergency vehicles. They will be in jail for another 19 days. Another reason for longer jail sentences are them being impossible to learn, aka. not changing behaviour from previous incidents.

    • Phegan@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Half of the voting population. Less people actually agree with conservatives in the US than our voting splits indicate. They are either indifferent or have been suppressed from voting.

  • rustyfish@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    41
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    1 year ago

    I work with people who actually think that’s a good thing. I really fucking hate my coworkers.

  • lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    47
    arrow-down
    15
    ·
    1 year ago

    As much as Germany denies it, it has been proven in the last 10 or so years that they really loved their nazi days. France seems to also love having been under nazi occupation too, and they seem to have a similar anti-environmentalist attitude.

  • sugarfree@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    28
    arrow-down
    16
    ·
    1 year ago

    The Germans have a history of these things, they try to pretend it’s all in the past but here they are right back to their old ways. It’s unacceptable for anyone to be detained in this way, period.

    • bleepbloopbleep@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      8
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Yeah, us evil, evil Germans … lol

      Please educate yourself: There are rightwing tendencies even in your country, but they’re coloured differently.

      If you’d take a closer look at world politics you’d find that there is an alarming trend concerning exactly this.

      Best example would be Italy - they’ve just elected a right-wing party and all hells breaking loose as they’ve started restructuring the social security system over there, leaving many, many families moneyless. Without any warning in advance. And that’s just the start.

      China is still on with their genocide - the Uigur must die it seems, no matter what. There’s still concentration camps.

      I could go on for hours.

      But yeah. You’re right. Us Germans are notorious and blind towards our history.

    • Dojan@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      arrow-down
      50
      ·
      1 year ago

      It’s absolutely better to let people be free and do whatever they want, than to apprehend them ahead of time when they’re suspected of planning to carry out a crime.

      Just imagine if the people who carried out the 11th September attack had been caught in the planning stage? Then tomorrow would just be a normal day instead of a sad day of remembrance.

      That would’ve been outrageous!

      • SheeEttin@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        41
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Ah yes, protesting destruction of the environment and terrorism killing thousands, definitely equivalent acts

        • Dojan@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          26
          ·
          1 year ago

          So either Germany has like 30 climate protesters, or these particular protesters are thought to be up to something and thus detained ahead of time to prevent them from causing damage either to people or property.

          It’s worth noting that

          1. The legality of this is being disputed and,
          2. The decision to detain these people is labelled as controversial by the article

          You can bet your arsehole that there’ll be people protesting at the event, and protesting hasn’t magically been made illegal.

          If you’ve been caught trying to hijack a plane in the past, you might find yourself being under extra scrutiny next time you try to fly. That’s entirely on you.

          I frequently call for the heads of big oil CEOs and enabling politicians, I don’t think I’ll ever be let within a kilometre of either type of people.

          • timconspicuous@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            17
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I’m begging you to take a look at the dangerous nefarious terroristic acts Letzte Generation usually engages in. They do non-violent road blockades. Sometimes they chain themselves to stuff. They might even spray some paint on a private jet sitting in a lot. These are the criminal masterminds Germany needs to crack out pre-crime for. It’s the mildest bullshit you can imagine.

            • Dojan@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              19
              ·
              1 year ago

              And what is that going to achieve? Because they glue themselves to the autobahn, or chain themselves to a dozen cars, people will magically stop driving?

              Then what? How is people not driving affecting the grand scheme of things?

              It’s not. Do something useful, like get to the people responsible. Idiotic stunts like super gluing yourself to a table is making a mockery of the entire climate movement.

              The suffragettes fucked with census and blew shit up. It’s time to take a leaf from their playbook.

              • qevlarr@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                17
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                “They must have been planning something terrible”

                “They weren’t”

                “Well they should have!”

                🤔

                You’re just being contrarian.

      • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        15
        ·
        1 year ago

        Unironically would be an awful world if people could be arrested for suspicion of wanting to potentially someday do a crime

        • Dojan@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          You’re right. It’s the world we live in, and it’s absolute garbage for a wide range of reasons.