The use of depleted uranium munitions has been fiercely debated, with opponents like the International Coalition to Ban Uranium Weapons saying there are dangerous health risks from ingesting or inhaling depleted uranium dust, including cancers and birth defects.
Whatever munition you choose, it will lead to heavy metal poisoning.
Pun intended?
depleted uranium is much worse than conventional ammo.
Being invaded is worse.
The quickest way to save the most amount of lives is whatever gets rid rid of Russia the quickest.
No question.
Depleted Uranium is hardly dangerous.
Another booby trapped mine with a grenade underneath gets placed by Russians every 4 minutes.
Another Ukrainian citizen is tortured.
And now there are reports of Ukrainian children being tortured.
Bring on the napalm.
Depleted Uranium is dangerous for anyone exposed to it. It will be a persistant environmental pollutant that could render large areas unsuitable for agriculture. Downplaying the effects is stupid and dangerous.
We need to talk about the effects and weigh the military benefit vs. the long term problems. Also for the military benefit you cannot take the shortcut of assuming no AP munitions to be used otherwise. Also the question is whether stronger AP abilities are needed, as Abrams should make quick work of T64s and probably T72s with normal AP rounds too.
So we have to weigh a potentially marginal benefit with a significant long term health effect. I trust the Ukranian army and government to make that decision, but again the issues shouldn’t be downplayed. Because of downplaying and ignoring the issues with it there is thousands of American and British vets that suffer from diseases and birth defects in their children, struggling to get it recognised and properly compensated.
Depleted uranium is not much different from lead. Heavy metals are unhealthy. It is barely radioactive as it is made from the rather stable uranium isotopes. (Hence depleted)
Uranium is pretty toxic compared to lead. LD50 is roughly 114 mg/kg vs. 4665 mg/kg depending on source. If you happen to get that dust inside your body, the radiation isn’t going to help you stay healthy either.
Link medical studies or gtfo
the “quickest way to save the most amount of lives” is peace talks. Both armies are locked in a stalemate and the war is going nowhere.
What is the point of peace talks with Russia? Promises and assurances by Russia have had no weight or effect. Which is why the war even happened. Also, Russia can end the war any day they want.
Russia started the war in the first place because — whether you think the fear is reasonable or not — Russia has loudly proclaimed for decades that they view NATO encirclement as an existential threat, and Ukraine joining NATO would massively expand NATO presence on the Russian border, leaving basically only Belarus as a buffer. And if Ukraine took Crimea with them while joining NATO, Russia would lose access to their only deep warm-water port on the black sea, Sevastapol, a port that is economically significant to them.
Maybe if Russia stopped invading their neighbors, then other neighbors wouldn’t feel the need to join NATO as protection from Russia.
It’s not.
Whatever water you drink, it will lead to heavy metal poisoning (eventually).
Whatever music you listen to, it will lead to heavy metal poisoning. Or to malmusicion.
Whatever heavy metal poisoning you get, it will lead to murmaider.
Not sure if dad joke.
OP is known tankie just fyi. Doesn’t justify US or Ukrainian actions but make sure you understand that the reason for posting this isn’t out of any actual concern for human beings. They’re also peddling covid conspiracies
peddling covid conspiracies
like what?
Yeah that’s a silly article. Strange that a supposed “tankie” would post something that pushes the Chinese lab leak conspiracy though, especially from an outlet run by an NYT liberal like Bari Weiss.
tankies don’t have coherent ideologies, or they wouldn’t be tankies
Define tankie, or do you just go off of vibes and guesses without any coherent thoughts about your opponents yourself?
Info is reuters. Are you on a crusade against tankie? Because it looks like you are.
That’s a pretty bad faith take, they’re just pointing out that op has an agenda as to why they are linking this specific article.
op has an agenda as to why they are linking this specific article
everyone has a fucking perspective, that’s a normal human behavior. do you expect people to just randomly select articles to post?
“normal human behavior” Great rationale, normal human behavior excuses everything
excuses what, going on a link aggregation site and posting an article that you find relevant to your perspective on the world?
What’s a tankie lol
Something like Stalinist communists. Usually used for non-Russians, but for some reason they love Russian imperialism.
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using disorders as an insult is ableist
Found the tankie
found the child
If age related insults are all you can come up with you can’t be older than 20 lol
Your mommy help you come up with that comeback?
Yikes.
Using depleted uranium rounds on your own territory seems bad. Especially since ukraine is a major exporter of grain.
Then again , shooting a gun inside is stupid, until someone is breaking in and trying to kill you.
According to the article, studies in places where the ammunition has been used “indicated that the existence of depleted uranium residues dispersed in the environment does not pose a radiological hazard to the population of the affected regions.”
What effect does it have on the grain?
And an environmental hazard, since Uranium is poisonous?
Ok, but the alternative is lead or tungsten, both of which are similarly toxic. So unless you are suggesting Ukraine only fights with artisanaly grown wooden weapons I’m not sure what point you’re making.
Did you completely ignore what he referenced in the article?
As well as being very mildly radioactive, depleted uranium is still a heavy metal, so can poison you in a similar way to lead. IIRC, that’s the most dangerous aspect of the material, and isn’t mentioned by the article.
As opposed to the other bullets that are also heavy metals.
No.
Does not compute. Why should depleted uranium have any effect on grain production. Its strong radioactive components are, as the name says, depleted. The only worry is inhalation immediately following impact.
I think there’s way too much misinformation about this and way too many people talking without a clue
Then again, shooting a gun inside is stupid, until someone is breaking in and trying to kill you.
Killing the opponent is the last resort in most developed countries.
Even as they’re burying your neighbors in mass graves? Interesting…
War has different rules.
If there’s one country to trust with nuclear safety it’s actually Ukraine. Capable engineers and scientists, understanding of institutional failure, and certainly not least memory of Chernobyl.
I’m sure Ukrainian soldiers on the front line are worried about cancer and birth defects.
It’s not about them. It’s the children who find the spent ammo later.
This crap is the reason that there are birth defects spikes anywhere the US military operates.
Ok but the alternatives are not environmentally conscious either, finally the people who’s land it is should be the ones making choices about the conditions of that land
The alternative bring tungsten? It’s very stable so anything besides eating a spent rod isn’t going to have effects. If it’s in the air it’ll just be inert. Even if it gets in your lungs it’ll be like any other dust. DU on the other hand would keep emitting radiation internally.
But which people? Government or the people who actually own the land?
And I guess, their favourite choice of “Don’t use any weapons on my land and just clear off voluntairily” is not an option.
I don’t get why people hate on the Ukraine for using weapons to defend themselves. Not like they chose to be attacked.
The alternative is to stop using people of Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
Then why don’t you ask Russia to withdraw, wouldn’t that be easier?
Russia is obviously not going to withdraw, and you or me asking Russia to withdraw isn’t going to make it happen. However, people living in western countries do have at least some influence on their own regimes. Of course, the reason western regimes can keep the proxy war going is precisely because a lot of scumbags are cheering it on right now.
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People of Donbas whom the Ukrainian regime was abusing for the past eight years asked Russia for help to defend their lives and home. The atrocities the Ukrainian regime was committing were even covered by CNN in 2014 https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
Meanwhile, the west is not helping Ukraine, it’s prolonging the war which results in more people dying without changing the outcome. This war could’ve been over last March when Russia and Ukraine almost signed a deal, but UK and US decided to torpedo it. If that’s your idea of helping Ukraine then you need to get your head checked.
The people of Ukraine seem to have a somewhat different view on the matter
That’s a really convenient narrative based on the fallacy of homogenizing Ukraine. Let’s take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
Maybe learn a bit about the subject first.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
election in 2004
2010 election
I wonder if anything of note happened between then and now, in other news Donald Trump is still president and gay marriage is illegal in the US
Maybe learn a bit about the subject first.
I suggest you go to Kyiv in the grocery store and explain this to the workers there
Oh yeah, things of note definitely happened since then
- https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
- https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
I suggest you go to Donbas and explain the above to people there that the regime you support has been maiming for the past decade.
What I see is a very deliberate attempt of russia to try to breed out an ethnicity in an attempt to create a reason to take more land. Which is exactly what happened- maybe learn about the subject first.
Lol the people of ukraine are fighting against a war of aggression from Russia. That’s it.
Is ammo made from lead that much better? I honestly don’t know. Sure the radiation sucks but Uranium, at least the isotope they’re sending is “barely” radioactive. It’s the same Uranium people had in their plates etc. The toxicity is probably the far more relevant factor but I don’t know how Uranium compares to lead.
Depleted uranium is not really that radioactive. Everything is technically radioactive eventually though. Depleted uranium is what’s left behind when you seperate the radioactive stuff out. It’s a heavy metal still, so isn’t good for you, but heavy metals will always be involved. Trying to have a war using only healthy, organic, ethically sourced munitions isn’t going to happen.
It’s nothing to do with radioactivity, it’s the toxicity that comes with most heavy metals.
There isn’t radiation in Depleted uranium.
This makes sense.
I imagine there’s a lot more reasons for birth defect spikes post US mil ops in addition to this. The military isn’t exactly an environmentally conscious operation. ☠️
Agent orange is what plants crave
Sure, burn pits and other crap will help.
But this kind of ammo, kids will find and hang on to. They bring it home, add it to their collection of other cool shit they’ve scavenged…and then their brothers and sisters are born with malformed limbs, mishaped heads, etc.
There have been a lot of stories written about it over the years. The one I read was specifically about Iraq I believe, but it was a while ago.
To be fair, the impact of DU is mostly because of heavy metal poisoning, not radioactivity.
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You’re acting like being near this stuff is akin to standing in Chernobyl while it just isn’t true
The amount of Ukrainians dying right now will pale in comparison to those effected by the munitions.
The controversy around depleted uranium rounds is way overblown.
Even in Iraq the evidence is super inconclusive. And yes birth defects rose however the entire country basically collapsed for years and nothing clearly indicates it was the DU used.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s nasty stuff. But this is war, more people are getting killed by bombs then any DU related cancer can cause.
In Basra the rate of leukemia in children rose dramatically and that is too specific of a disease to not be linked to DU exposure due to the heavy use of it in surrounding tank battles.
How do you you it’s not linked to any of the other hundreds of dangerous chemicals?
Because the issue is specific to the region and started specifically after the tank battle where DU ammunition was used. If it would be a general issue with some dangerous chemical being used, we’d expect to see similiar issues in other regions. Of course it is hypotheticakky possible that at the same time some dangerous and persistant chemical exposure happened in the region, but that is not plausible and also the US would have a strong interest in finding such an alternative explanation. But there isn’t any research published, that provided an alternative.
Also look into the wording of the US when sending the ammunition to Ukraine. They state that no radiation hazard is to be expected for the Ukrainians. They do not talk about a toxicological hazard.
- correlation ≠ causation. 2) if the disease is caused by DU, is it due to the radioactivity or the fact that DU is a heavy metal?
i never said it had to be because of radiation. Even just in its effect as a heavy metal it seems to be much worse. Also it could be that it becomes airborn more easily than other metals such as lead, so the wreckage of tanks shot with DU are more dangerous to the people cleaning them up.
Why are you so worried about speculated harms when Ukrainians are actually being raped, tortured, and murdered by russians? Your lack of humanity is showing
Turning “we need to weigh benefits and costs” into “your lack of humanity is showing” is quite a take and obviously has nothing to do with reality.
We have to remember that Russia caused this war, however. So they also caused the depleted uranium being a possible health risk for future ukrainian children.
Yes, Ukrainian soldiers on front line are worried about cancer and birth defects. They are rational human beings who hope to return to their homes and live long lives and grow healthy children, not some subhumans with only intent to kill, kill, kill, as you wish to think.
I don’t know how rational this is. Given how many soldiers have died so far, if I were a Ukrainian sent to fight on the front line, I wouldn’t expect to be coming back. Rather I’d hope that I contribute to the defeat of the enemy, so that my children or my comrades children don’t grow up under Russian rule. I’m not in their shoes of course. There’s no universal motivation so maybe what you say is more prevalent. That said, this war might not end without soldiers doing a lot more killing so “kill, kill, kill” might be an appropriate viewpoint.
You will get cancer sooner by staying in the sun on a beach or anywhere.
Everyone should worry. Depleted uranium will contaminate large crop production areas and later these grains will be sold all around the world. Everybody will eat some.
What does the “depleted” part of depleted uranium mean?
There are multiple different isotopes of uranium, depleted has less of the kinds good for bombs or fuel.
Depleted means that the radioactive isotope is lower in concentration. It still is somehow radioactive (it’s almost fine if not ingested) and still remains a heavy and toxic metal.
Right, so how are all these large areas and crops going to be contaminated?
When they explode, they spread radioactive dust into the surrounding area. If that area is ever farmed it can contaminate the crops and cause cancer to anyone breathing in the dust
And what is the level of risk of that happening?
Banana is somehow radioactive too you know. Or granit. Anciant Greece monument often are above the radiation levels allowed in a nuclear power plant.
Also, while you talk about it, lead is far far more toxic than depleted uranium. Many metals are toxic actually, that’s why your government monitor water meant for consumption.
lead is far far more toxic than depleted uranium
Looks like that might not be correct. https://lemmy.world/comment/3108233
Ancient Greece used marble for monuments, not granite…
Are you denser then Uranium? Why do you think there is an issue with waste from nuclear power plants? Hint: it is radioactive!
Calls me dense, doesn’t know what depleted uranium is
Sure, whatever makes you feel lighter.
No it won’t
Oh well… The amount of health risks that these rounds would cause would pale in comparison to the mines that the Orcs have planted everywhere. Anything to drive out the invaders!
is this a /s or a fr moment
A fr moment
The amount of ruscist sympathisers in this thread is depressing. Are depleted uranium munitions fucked up? Yeah and they shouldn’t be used. But that isn’t an excuse to bootlick a fascist invader that is already performing ethnic cleansing on territories they took last year
Yeah, I use threads like these to block users. Can’t wait for lemmy to implement user level instance blocking like mastodon has.
Edit: don’t downvote me, tell me what issue you have with this.
I have no issue with your blocklist (and not gonna downvote your comment), but i still have to say that your position is pretty strange. Why at all join lemmy.ml which is known as real Babel tower with wide range of different opinions without any of them being dominant or enforced (and that differs .ml from .world, beehaw, hexbear, lemmygrad and so on)? If you need echo chamber, you can join other instance or get back to reddit, no reason to wait someone to code some functions.
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
The rounds, which could help destroy Russian tanks, are part of a new military aid package for Ukraine set to be unveiled in the next week.
The munitions can be fired from U.S. Abrams tanks that, according to a person familiar with the matter, are expected be delivered to Ukraine in the coming weeks.
It follows an earlier decision by the Biden administration to provide cluster munitions to Ukraine, despite concerns over the dangers such weapons pose to civilians.
The United States used depleted uranium munitions in massive quantities in the 1990 and 2003 Gulf Wars and the NATO bombing of former Yugoslavia in 1999.
The U.N. nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency, says that studies in former Yugoslavia, Kuwait, Iraq and Lebanon “indicated that the existence of depleted uranium residues dispersed in the environment does not pose a radiological hazard to the population of the affected regions.”
Parts of the country are already strewn with unexploded ordnance from cluster bombs and other munitions and hundreds of thousands of anti-personnel mines.
The original article contains 499 words, the summary contains 172 words. Saved 66%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Seems a little strange considering their refusal to provide M1 Abrams tanks from their stockpile as these have depleted uranium armor.
Maybe there are way more secrets in making armor with depleted uranium (and certainly other things layered in) than just shaping a shell with it?
They’ll receive their first 14 M1A1 by Sept. 25. I don’t think any foreign countries get the reactive armor except for the US.
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The UK.
Why though? Can’t imagine that these rounds are going to change the course of the war, so why? Are they out of non-Uranium ones?
Because of the uranium bullets are denser and heavier than the lead bullets and you can use the uranium bullets on certain types of aircraft and other weapons systems to shred through medium to heavy armor that could not be penetrated with a lead bullet. TLDR this will be used as a force multiplier.
They are harder and penetrate armour better. So yes they will provide an advantage.
The sooner Russian occupiers are no longer murdering Ukrainians and dropping mines over every square meter of land, the less harm comes to Ukrainians.
No individual measure aside from troops on the ground or nukes is going to change the course of the war by itself.
The ammunition is very effective at punching through the armor. But the Ukrainians will be fucked when in 5 years Leukemia in children is skyrocketing
Maybe but if they lose the war will that be better?
So what, you’re suggesting that right now they are “winning”? By what metric are they “winning”? Western brownie points? Because all of the teenagers and young adults that are 6ft under would beg to differ.
You suggest they roll over and give up?
Russian forced are mechanized and entrenched, depleted uranium self sharpens on impact, yielding far better armor penetration than previous technologies.
And more generational cancer
Ammo is ammo. It’s better than hurling stones.
From what I’ve read depleted uranium is not proven to cause cancer, nor is it not proven (With the exception that you inhale it or eat it).
In Iraq it’s still up to debate if it causes cancer or birth defects, since burning buildings and other burning stuff also causes a lot of nasty things to humans.
From what I’ve read they were also used in Bosnia, and they haven’t had similiar effects to Iraq.
So let the Ukrainians have their depleted uranium.
I was just gonna say, you’re correct, and I’m pretty sure there are WAY more toxic chemicals and debris on a battlefield. Think of all the older structures built with asbestos products being destroyed, for example…
Last I read, alot of the effects Vets ended up with from Iraq, were from the immense open pits they burnt their trash in.
Tankies shaking in their boots over that Abrams 120mm DU APFSDS slicing though Russian steel like butter.
It’s so easy to trigger tankie bridgades. How many posts yall got about me now? Tagged me in a few!
Imagine having a brain so smooth that you think abrams are going to fare any better than the leopards.
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It’s only a hazard if you are handling it all the time, or you hang out around old targets where there is a fuck ton of uranium dust just waiting to get stirred up. If it gets in your lungs, you are not going to be a happy camper after a few years. Even so, depleted uranium emits alpha particles which is the weakest form of radiation.
I don’t deny the fact that uranium dust is bad. The reasons why it is bad are usually left out of the all the articles that hate on it for the wrong reasons.
Hell, here in Colorado we have more issues with radon. As far as uranium is concerned, there are problems with rainwater runoff concentrating it from the old mines that we have, but that is about it. Of course that isn’t good, but it takes massive tailings piles from old mines to cause issues for groundwater and such.
Just another piece of evidence that the west never actually cared about Ukraine or people living there. Ukrainians are just a pawn the west is using to try and weaken Russia with zero consideration for the lives of the people living there.
Well, the alternatives are heavy metal, which also aren’t the greatest to breathe in. It’s almost like war is aweful and this one shouldn’t have been started in the first place, but here we are…
No, the alternative is for the west to stop using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
And what, let the Russians steamroll Ukraine and take everything? Let them destroy a fledgling democracy? Right on the EU’s and NATO’s doorstep? Come on.
How do you think this is going to end exactly?
fledgling democracy
The real alternative is for Russians to go home. Who the fuck cares who’s using them? They’re being invaded. Russia didn’t need to invade them, but they thought they could get away with it (again). This isnt the first invasion of a sovereign country Russia has done. It isn’t even the first invasion of Ukraine. The US didn’t get involved in the others. Are we just going to excuse those?
I don’t know why people keep repeating this. Do you honestly think this is a coherent point? Russia is obviously not going to go home no matter how many times you’re going to repeat it. It’s a meaningless and useless statement that literally solves nothing. Either NATO can defeat Russia or not, so far it looks like NATO is not able to do so. What NATO is accomplishing is prolonging the conflict without changing the outcome. That means more people dying and having their lives ruined so that US military industry can make a profit and so that US can try and weaken Russia geopolitically. Anybody who thinks the west is in this conflict to help Ukraine is an utter imbecile.
Should the US have sent supplies to the allies in WWI and WWII before joining? It was just prolonging the war and causing people to die, right?
The reason the US is doing it is not morality. Everyone knows that. International politics is never about morality, it’s about power. However, that doesn’t mean it isn’t also the moral option.
Also, NATO and the US are not in the war. We’re sending supplies. The US isn’t even sending the good stuff. We’re sending parts of our stockpile that’s old and has just been sitting around waiting for a use. They haven’t sent the newer technology so it it isn’t studied in case a real enemy requires them to be used.
The yanks were funding the WWII Nazis before they ‘sent supplies to the allies’.
More What-aboutism to dodge answering the question. That’s expected, and it’s about as good as an answer to me and anyone paying attention.
It takes an incredible amount of historical illiteracy to try and draw parallels between WW2 and the proxy war US is waging against Russia in Ukraine. However, if you weren’t historically illiterate, then you’d also know that US companies continued working with the nazis well into the war, and IBM is famously responsible for facilitating the holocaust.
Also, NATO and the US are very obviously in this war, and one has to be utterly intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
When the US government was providing resources to the allies, was it good or bad? I’m not talking companies or anything else. You’re dodging the question. There are enough parallels to draw a comparison. You just know what the answer would be and it conflicts with your beliefs, so you can’t admit it, to yourself or others.
I’m sure Ukrainians agree with you.
The Ukrainians that the regime has been abusing for the past 8 years sure do, here’s some CNN reporting you might want to watch https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
- if Ukraine lose completely most of ukrainans living in Ukraine simply get extriminated or forcely assimilated.
- Russia started the war when invided Ukraine in 2014. not sure where the “using” is.
That’s just fractally wrong.
tell me what’s right. I’m ukrainian living in Ukraine. but please, your bs about дамбілі бамбас won’t work
btw Im not happy with NATO neither with western history. I just know personally what russian imperialistic shit looks like
Good thing Russia cared enough to murder, rape and kidnap them. What would Ukrainians do without help from great Putin?
But it’s the west that proclaims to be the great defenders of Ukraine. With friends like these who needs enemies.
And the west invaded, murdered, raped and kidnapped them? Didn’t know, new to me.
The west literally overthrew the legitimate and democratically elected government to install literal fascists in power who have been busy doing this the people in eastern Ukraine for the past either years. If this is news to you then take a sit because you have no clue regarding the subject you’re bloviating on here.
Fascinating. Can you show me more links about the west NOT invading, murdering, raping and kidnapping Ukrainians? Amazing that you think this somehow proves your point.
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OMG, I didn’t know that. So the Russian fascist regime is actually maiming it’s own people in Ukraine in order to help Ukrainians? Fascinating. Please tell me more.
Russia does not need the west to weaken it, comrade, it is perfectly capable of doing that on its own!
Maybe try engaging with reality? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-11/russia-s-war-economy-is-on-course-to-recover-from-sanctions-hit
You expect me to pay for an article from a neolib shitstain outlet?
Have another neolib shitstain outlet, this time for free: https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-economy-brain-drain-labor-shortage-workforce-exodus-capital-flight-2023-9
The truth is that it’s all quite hard to measure as Russia is lying about its economical figures (they make no sense whatsoever) and going via secondary indicators is possible, but also frought with uncertainty. But two things really stand out: a) investing in a war you’re losing is GDP flushed down the drain, b) they’re cut off from any advanced technology at even half-way reasonable prices, c) massive brain drain, there’s also d) report of very excessive inflation when it comes to food.
If they manage to raise GDP by exporting more oil or whatnot – that’s raising GDP. It’s not actually doing the country any good. More petrorubles for the kleptocrats.
But all that is rather besides the point. Russia, alongside with Ukraine, did a lot of stuff wrong in the 90s. Look at Estonia or e.g. Czechs (if you want to keep it among Slavs) on how to do it… nah, not right, but definitely better.
Ukraine then managed to turn around, develop an actual civil society and clip the wings of the oligarchy, Russia didn’t. That is what I mean with “perfectly capable of messing up on their own”. It’s also the reason for the war it’s a matter of regime stability: There’s plenty of family ties between Russia and Ukraine, if Russians see that Ukraine can escape the yoke of the kleptocrats then they could start to believe that they, too, can do that.
I expect you to have minimal technical literacy to put the link URL in archive.
The truth is that there is no actual evidence to indicate that Russian economy is struggling in any way.
a) investing in a war you’re losing is GDP flushed down the drain
That certainly explains why Europe is in a deep recession now and why US economy is looking shaky.
b) they’re cut off from any advanced technology at even half-way reasonable prices
Once you look at a map you’ll realize that Russia shares a huge border with China where all the advanced technology is produced nowadays. Trade between Russia and China has shot up to over 200 billion this year.
c) massive brain drain
Very little evidence for that actually happening, the article you linked is written by the same people who claimed Russia was a gas station with nukes, and that Russian economy was going to collapse months after western sanctions were imposed. If you haven’t figured out that you’ve been lied to yet, that really says a lot about you.
d) report of very excessive inflation when it comes to food.
Russia has very low food inflation and happens to be one of the major food producers globally. Once again, the fact that you think Russia has food inflation says volumes.
But all that is rather besides the point. Russia, alongside with Ukraine, did a lot of stuff wrong in the 90s. Look at Estonia or e.g. Czechs (if you want to keep it among Slavs) on how to do it… nah, not right, but definitely better.
We’re now seeing Russia having made it through two years of being cut off from the western economy, and doing well for itself. Meanwhile, countries like Estonia and Czech republic aren’t doing so hot. And frankly, it’s completely absurd to compare a country the size of Russia to a country like Estonia.
Ukraine then managed to turn around, develop an actual civil society and clip the wings of the oligarchy, Russia didn’t.
That’s complete and utter horseshit. Ukraine turned into the most corrupt country in Europe, and things have only kept getting worse. Ukraine started as a big industrial power after USSR collapsed, and now it’s been robbed entirely of anything of value.
There’s plenty of family ties between Russia and Ukraine, if Russians see that Ukraine can escape the yoke of the kleptocrats then they could start to believe that they, too, can do that.
What people in Russia see is that under west’s leadership Ukraine managed to become worse than Russia. All that did was convince people in Russia that the west was going to fuck them over exactly the same way they fucked Ukraine over.
Ukraine turned into the most corrupt country in Europe, and things have only kept getting worse.
Ukraine and Russia both did. One of them is making efforts to get out of that swamp.
I find it rather telling that of all the things you found weak retorts for, you completely left out the “More petrorubles for the kleptocrats” part, and how GDP is not a proper measure of the wealth of a people, at least in any even remotely leftist sense.
Ask Tuvans without access to electricity, running water, heck even a fucking gas station, how wealthy they are. Yet they’re not even counted as poor in the official statistics as the way poverty is counted in Russia is highly regional: If you’re poor in Moscow you count, if you’re infinitely worse off in the periphery you don’t.
That is why you see Russian soldiers – primarily from the periphery as joining the army is the only way to make any money as there’s no actual jobs – looting toilets. Fucking toilets. Back in WWII it was water faucets. Nothing the fuck has changed in that regard.
If you think that Putin is “draining the swamp” then you’re no less naive than your run off the mill Trumpet.
(Side note, speaking of WWII: Remember that Soviet flag on the Reichstag picture? That’s of a Ukrainian. Taken by a Ukrainian).
“Looting toilets” is the funniest part. Do you really believe that Ukraine is such pauper country that invading soldiers couldn’t loot anything more valuable than used toilets from occupied cities? It’s required to have literally zero critical thinking in order not to understand that this is propagandistic bullshit.
People take PCs, jewellery, and smartphones with them when fleeing. You usually leave the toilet behind.
One of them is making efforts to get out of that swamp.
You must be referring to Russia here given that this is what’s happening in Ukraine right now
- https://www.politico.eu/article/volodymyr-zelenskyy-corruption-scandal-crackdown-treason-ukraine-war-democracy-antac-anti-corruption-action-center/
- https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/in-ukraine-now-there-are-autocratic-tendencies-democracy-at-stake-rstd9nn3q
I find it rather telling that of all the things you found weak retorts for, you completely left out the “More petrorubles for the kleptocrats” part, and how GDP is not a proper measure of the wealth of a people, at least in any even remotely leftist sense.
There is zero indication to suggest that regular people in Russia are significantly effected in any way right now. Cost of food, housing, and other essentials has stayed stable.
That is why you see Russian soldiers – primarily from the periphery as joining the army is the only way to make any money as there’s no actual jobs – looting toilets. Fucking toilets. Back in WWII it was water faucets. Nothing the fuck has changed in that regard.
I mean if that’s what you’ve convinced yourself of then what else is there to say to you.
If you think that Putin is “draining the swamp” then you’re no less naive than your run off the mill Trumpet.
No, I don’t think Putin is draining any swamp, but I do think he runs a far more competent administration than western oligarchs.
(Side note, speaking of WWII: Remember that Soviet flag on the Reichstag picture? That’s of a Ukrainian. Taken by a Ukrainian).
And now thanks to the help from the west Ukraine is run by literal fascists. Maybe something you should reflect on.
In any case, this conversation is clearly pointless since you evidently live in an alternate reality. I’ll just let you figure things out on your own and reconcile the fantasies you’ve built up with the real world as it becomes increasingly more difficult to ignore going forward.
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And you know how the Vietnam war ended, right?
There was a peace agreement between the north and the south, and then a few years later North Vietnam broke it and invaded again, taking over all of the country.
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So basically admitting you don’t know the actual history? Maybe start with reading a Wikipedia page or something.
None of that excuses US war crimes in Vietnam, but it does show how a potential future with a hypothetical peace treaty could look like.
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As a German, thank you. Meanwhile we’re still dragging our feet with the TAURUS, sigh.
