I understand that it’s supposed to be a shitty comic and not a balanced, reasonable take, but if you’d like to hear a German perspective anyways:
I’m not aware of any official representative lobbying other countries to end nuclear, except of course in nations that build their totally safe reactors near our border. I’m also not aware of us being awarded or recognized for our stance. Individual Germans, like me, will of course have been fed different propaganda than you and will argue accordingly.
No one here likes the coal generators. And with how much cheaper solar is these days, they’re definitely on the way out. But we don’t have a dictatorship anymore, luckily, so even obviously good paths will face pushback, like from entire regions whose jobs are in the coal industry.
We’ve just been able to get a consensus on abolishing nuclear much more quickly for multiple reasons:
Chernobyl directly affected us, including the people running our country. Russia also attacked nuclear reactors in the Ukraine, which certainly reminded people of Chernobyl.
At the start of the Ukraine war, it was unclear whether Russia might also launch attacks on us, including our nuclear reactors.
Russia also cut off our natural gas supply. We have practically no own Uranium deposits either, so reducing dependence on foreign nations was definitely in our interest, too.
At the start of the Ukraine war, it was unclear whether Russia might also launch attacks on us, including our nuclear reactors.
Russia hasn’t attacked any nuclear reactors in Ukraine for obvious reasons. The notions that Russia would attack nuclear reactors in Germany is pure absurdity that no sane person could believe.
Russia also cut off our natural gas supply. We have practically no own Uranium deposits either, so reducing dependence on foreign nations was definitely in our interest, too.
That’s a straight up lie. Russia never cut off gas supply to Germany, and in fact has repeatedly stated that one of Nord Stream pipelines is operational. German government is choosing to buy Russian LNG through third parties instead of buying pipeline gas directly.
Well, I don’t know what to tell you. These things have been broadly reported here in Germany. Whom of us was mislead, doesn’t matter for explaining why us Germans have a different stance on things.
Here’s two random articles, but I can send a whole list of links, if your search engine isn’t turning up anything:
Ah yes, “Ukrainian officials say”, very credible source. Weird how IEA never found any evidence of Russia shelling ZNPP though. And yeah, once you stop paying for a product the delivery stops. That’s how business works.
Russia stopped transfers because Europe refused to pay in a currency Russia could use. Funny how you forgot to mention that the west froze Russian foreign assets there.
Now, Europe is still buying Russian gas, but via resellers while lying to the public.
Chernobyl directly affected us, including the people running our country. Russia also attacked nuclear reactors in the Ukraine, which certainly reminded people of Chernobyl.
Fear-mongering from uneducated half-wits who know next to nothing about energy production and infrastructure.
At the start of the Ukraine war, it was unclear whether Russia might also launch attacks on us, including our nuclear reactors.
Fear-mongering from uneducated half-wits who know next to nothing about geo-politics and Putin’s intentions.
Putin clearly wanted to prevent Ukraine from selling natural gas from deposits in the Black Sea to the EU. Capturing Donetsk and annexing Crimea helps that goal.
He also doesn’t want to be reminded that the Kievan Rus exist and existed independently of Muscovy.
Russia also cut off our natural gas supply. We have practically no own Uranium deposits either, so reducing dependence on foreign nations was definitely in our interest, too.
Nuclear plants would reduce Germany’s foreign dependence on energy far more than coal plants
Nuclear fission is the cleanest way to produce the required energy to build the infrastructure of an economy sans greenhouse gasses. Those wind turbines, geothermal systems, solar panels etc. all need energy to be produced.
One doesn’t need to use uranium or plutonium as fissile material for the fuel rods. For instance, India and China have working Thorium reactors.
Germany’s obstinacy in energy policy is reflective of much of the rest of the world’s ruling class. Too corrupt and too dumb to think and act responsibly regarding energy, economic, and military policy.
Foreign dependance is just false. In own country produced coal is clearly less foreign dependant than importing uranium.
All your other points are up for debate and by far not as black and white or right and wrong as you seem to believe.
We are yet to see these fancy schmancy super reactors online in Europe. Just about every new nuclear construction site in Europe in the past 15 years has become nothing short of a financial bottomless pit.
Foreign dependance is just false. In own country produced coal is clearly less foreign dependant than importing uranium.
Once again, one doesn’t need to import and use uranium for fissile material.
All your other points are up for debate and by far not as black and white or right and wrong as you seem to believe.
State your specific counterarguments. Address my points directly. Otherwise, this statement is meaningless.
We are yet to see these fancy schmancy super reactors online in Europe.
Despite thoroughly well-documented European incompetence in energy policy, the need to import uranium doesn’t absolve Germany of its own hypocrisy in discourse about said policy and climate change.
Nothing is stopping Germany, and all NATO nations for that matter, in creating thorium reactors, save the aforementioned ignorance, incompetence, intransigence, and corruption. Thorium is abundant just about everywhere on Earth.
Just about every new nuclear construction site in Europe in the past 15 years has become nothing short of a financial bottomless pit.
1 simple search revealed the following:
Belarus opened Ostrovets 1 and 2 in June 2021 and November 2023.
Bulgaria has 2 planned.
Poland is planning to build a lot, the first scheduled to open in 2026.
Slovakia opened one in October 2023.
UK has 2 under construction at Hinkley point, and 6 more planned.
France has 6 more planned.
I think all of these use Uranium-235 fuel rods.
Somehow these countries can and/or have gotten the job done in the recent past and are actively building more. Germany, the largest, strongest economy in Europe can’t, for “ReAsOnS”.
British new reactors are by now more then a decade overdue and budget is spiralling out of control massively. So massively it’s causing the need for diplomacy between France (EDF) and Britain to get involved.
Same tendencies are in all European countries that tried nuclear project recently: way over budget and massive delays. Only France is somewhat better exception. Belarus is a dictatorship, if they say reactor go, reactor go. This is exactly what is meant with some fears surrounding nuclear energy. Chernobyl was real. It’s not a coincidence it happened in the USSR.
If I say ALL other points you made are not so black and white, I do not have the obligation to specify nor to elaborate. Things are rarely binary good vs evil in this world. Every energy source has advantages and disadvantages. Pro-nuclear voices are often blind for the risks, they are very tiny in possibility and very large in potential consequences at the same time.
Thorium, smr etc is still a pipedream at this point.
It is a valid strategy for a country to invest into proven technology like better insulating homes, optimising network, supporting more wind and solar and combining it with importing foreign hydrogen. This choice does not make Germany or other European countries retarded as is often portrayed. The mistakes are make in the timing, and in the reliance on 1 single foreign supplier (Russian gas), not in the fundamental choice itself to move away from nuclear. The move away from nuclear was very widely supported in German democracy. And it is valid to say this was an environmental choice: no, we don’t know what to do with the small fraction of very long lasting waste in the long term, a fact still ignored all the time by the pro-nuclear voice.
Same tendencies are in all European countries that tried nuclear project recently: way over budget and massive delays.
And yet, the countries that are developing new nuclear plants despite the hurdles all realize the fraction of greenhouse gasses in gigatons emitted vs. coal. All the sustainable energy sources and their delivery systems require energy (and a good amount, at that) to be manufactured.
I do not have the obligation to specify nor to elaborate.
No, you’re not obligated to say anything, but it shows the meaninglessness of the statement, “everything isn’t so black and white.”
Things are rarely binary good vs evil in this world.
I wasn’t talking about “good vs. evil”. I gave you the reasons why Putin, reasons that have been patently obvious to NATO in every publicly published intelligence briefing since 2008, invaded Ukraine.
Thus, citing not building power plants due to fear of Russian invasion is complete bullshit.
Simply put, why would Putin invade Germany if the Ukrainians deposed his puppet, and actively sought to exploit their territorial gas reserves and cut into his business? What’s in Germany for him? Rammstein airbase and NATO retaliation? Your precious coal?
Thorium, smr etc is still a pipedream at this point.
And yet many nations are rapidly developing them. India and China have active reactors currently. Not such a “pipe dream” if there’re working examples and a push towards developing them across the energy sector in every nuclear-capable country.
It is a valid strategy for a country to invest into proven technology like better insulating homes, optimising network, supporting more wind and solar and combining it with importing foreign hydrogen.
Once again, all of that needs tremendous amounts of energy to happen. And instead of using their already existing nuclear plants to supply it, they’re going to use coal (primarily) to do it while pressing everyone else to hit their emissions targets, akin to the hypocrisy this meme illustrated.
The move away from nuclear was very widely supported in German democracy.
Widely supported by idiots, hypocrites, and corrupt interests.
No, we don’t know what to do with the small fraction of very long lasting waste in the long term, a fact still ignored all the time by the pro-nuclear voice.
Yes, we do. And with thorium reactors, such operations don’t need to occur.
Reexamine and reassess nuclear power programs regularly, of course.
Shut everything down and burn coal, in light of the direction of the climate of our planet? And do that while publicly claiming how “green and clean” you are? And everyone else had better hit their emissions targets?
Go fuck yourself, Germany. Oh wait. You already did.
I understand that it’s supposed to be a shitty comic and not a balanced, reasonable take, but if you’d like to hear a German perspective anyways:
I’m not aware of any official representative lobbying other countries to end nuclear, except of course in nations that build their totally safe reactors near our border. I’m also not aware of us being awarded or recognized for our stance. Individual Germans, like me, will of course have been fed different propaganda than you and will argue accordingly.
No one here likes the coal generators. And with how much cheaper solar is these days, they’re definitely on the way out. But we don’t have a dictatorship anymore, luckily, so even obviously good paths will face pushback, like from entire regions whose jobs are in the coal industry.
We’ve just been able to get a consensus on abolishing nuclear much more quickly for multiple reasons:
Russia hasn’t attacked any nuclear reactors in Ukraine for obvious reasons. The notions that Russia would attack nuclear reactors in Germany is pure absurdity that no sane person could believe.
That’s a straight up lie. Russia never cut off gas supply to Germany, and in fact has repeatedly stated that one of Nord Stream pipelines is operational. German government is choosing to buy Russian LNG through third parties instead of buying pipeline gas directly.
Well, I don’t know what to tell you. These things have been broadly reported here in Germany. Whom of us was mislead, doesn’t matter for explaining why us Germans have a different stance on things.
Here’s two random articles, but I can send a whole list of links, if your search engine isn’t turning up anything:
Ah yes, “Ukrainian officials say”, very credible source. Weird how IEA never found any evidence of Russia shelling ZNPP though. And yeah, once you stop paying for a product the delivery stops. That’s how business works.
Russia stopped delivering gas to 5 european countries in May 2022 because those countries refused to pay in rubels.
Then they announced in June 2022 that they would only deliver half of the agreed-upon volumes to Germany, Austria, Slovakia, Czechia and Italy.
In September 2022 Russia stopped gas transfers via Nord Stream 1 completely, “because of technical difficulties”.
Those are facts. Russia stopped these gas transfers. No one else.
Russia stopped transfers because Europe refused to pay in a currency Russia could use. Funny how you forgot to mention that the west froze Russian foreign assets there.
Now, Europe is still buying Russian gas, but via resellers while lying to the public.
Those are the actual facts.
The lobbyist groups involved are very PRO-nuclear, hence why there’s so many nuclear posts on literally every single social media platform.
https://www.ans.org/news/article-4390/nuclear-bros-take-to-social-media-to-spread-the-word/
Fear-mongering from uneducated half-wits who know next to nothing about energy production and infrastructure.
Fear-mongering from uneducated half-wits who know next to nothing about geo-politics and Putin’s intentions.
Putin clearly wanted to prevent Ukraine from selling natural gas from deposits in the Black Sea to the EU. Capturing Donetsk and annexing Crimea helps that goal.
He also doesn’t want to be reminded that the Kievan Rus exist and existed independently of Muscovy.
Nuclear plants would reduce Germany’s foreign dependence on energy far more than coal plants
Nuclear fission is the cleanest way to produce the required energy to build the infrastructure of an economy sans greenhouse gasses. Those wind turbines, geothermal systems, solar panels etc. all need energy to be produced.
One doesn’t need to use uranium or plutonium as fissile material for the fuel rods. For instance, India and China have working Thorium reactors.
Germany’s obstinacy in energy policy is reflective of much of the rest of the world’s ruling class. Too corrupt and too dumb to think and act responsibly regarding energy, economic, and military policy.
Foreign dependance is just false. In own country produced coal is clearly less foreign dependant than importing uranium.
All your other points are up for debate and by far not as black and white or right and wrong as you seem to believe.
We are yet to see these fancy schmancy super reactors online in Europe. Just about every new nuclear construction site in Europe in the past 15 years has become nothing short of a financial bottomless pit.
Once again, one doesn’t need to import and use uranium for fissile material.
State your specific counterarguments. Address my points directly. Otherwise, this statement is meaningless.
Despite thoroughly well-documented European incompetence in energy policy, the need to import uranium doesn’t absolve Germany of its own hypocrisy in discourse about said policy and climate change.
Nothing is stopping Germany, and all NATO nations for that matter, in creating thorium reactors, save the aforementioned ignorance, incompetence, intransigence, and corruption. Thorium is abundant just about everywhere on Earth.
1 simple search revealed the following:
I think all of these use Uranium-235 fuel rods.
Somehow these countries can and/or have gotten the job done in the recent past and are actively building more. Germany, the largest, strongest economy in Europe can’t, for “ReAsOnS”.
I’ve heard that Germany today has problems with expertise to operate nuclear sites. Not sure how much of a problem that would be, though.
British new reactors are by now more then a decade overdue and budget is spiralling out of control massively. So massively it’s causing the need for diplomacy between France (EDF) and Britain to get involved.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/cost-edfs-new-uk-nuclear-project-soars-40-bln-2023-02-20/
Same tendencies are in all European countries that tried nuclear project recently: way over budget and massive delays. Only France is somewhat better exception. Belarus is a dictatorship, if they say reactor go, reactor go. This is exactly what is meant with some fears surrounding nuclear energy. Chernobyl was real. It’s not a coincidence it happened in the USSR.
If I say ALL other points you made are not so black and white, I do not have the obligation to specify nor to elaborate. Things are rarely binary good vs evil in this world. Every energy source has advantages and disadvantages. Pro-nuclear voices are often blind for the risks, they are very tiny in possibility and very large in potential consequences at the same time.
Thorium, smr etc is still a pipedream at this point.
It is a valid strategy for a country to invest into proven technology like better insulating homes, optimising network, supporting more wind and solar and combining it with importing foreign hydrogen. This choice does not make Germany or other European countries retarded as is often portrayed. The mistakes are make in the timing, and in the reliance on 1 single foreign supplier (Russian gas), not in the fundamental choice itself to move away from nuclear. The move away from nuclear was very widely supported in German democracy. And it is valid to say this was an environmental choice: no, we don’t know what to do with the small fraction of very long lasting waste in the long term, a fact still ignored all the time by the pro-nuclear voice.
And yet, the countries that are developing new nuclear plants despite the hurdles all realize the fraction of greenhouse gasses in gigatons emitted vs. coal. All the sustainable energy sources and their delivery systems require energy (and a good amount, at that) to be manufactured.
No, you’re not obligated to say anything, but it shows the meaninglessness of the statement, “everything isn’t so black and white.”
I wasn’t talking about “good vs. evil”. I gave you the reasons why Putin, reasons that have been patently obvious to NATO in every publicly published intelligence briefing since 2008, invaded Ukraine.
Thus, citing not building power plants due to fear of Russian invasion is complete bullshit.
Simply put, why would Putin invade Germany if the Ukrainians deposed his puppet, and actively sought to exploit their territorial gas reserves and cut into his business? What’s in Germany for him? Rammstein airbase and NATO retaliation? Your precious coal?
And yet many nations are rapidly developing them. India and China have active reactors currently. Not such a “pipe dream” if there’re working examples and a push towards developing them across the energy sector in every nuclear-capable country.
Once again, all of that needs tremendous amounts of energy to happen. And instead of using their already existing nuclear plants to supply it, they’re going to use coal (primarily) to do it while pressing everyone else to hit their emissions targets, akin to the hypocrisy this meme illustrated.
Widely supported by idiots, hypocrites, and corrupt interests.
Yes, we do. And with thorium reactors, such operations don’t need to occur.
Reexamine and reassess nuclear power programs regularly, of course.
Shut everything down and burn coal, in light of the direction of the climate of our planet? And do that while publicly claiming how “green and clean” you are? And everyone else had better hit their emissions targets?
Go fuck yourself, Germany. Oh wait. You already did.
What does Chernobyl have to do with Germany deciding to appease a few billionaires and burn more coal?
I’m not aware of those billionaires caring whether they get paid to burn coal or paid to build solar farms.