This choice about stripping him or due process or not was made before our time. The 14th amendment says “… engaged in insurrection.” It does not say found guilty of or after a trial. The bar isn’t has lofty as you’re making it seem and it’s been there since 1868, so I’m not sure why it’s suddenly concerning to you.
I mentioned in another comment but I think conviction should be the bar. During reconstruction, we bypassed due process on this because it obviously applied to anybody holding office in one of the seceding states. Now that we’re in territory the amendment wasn’t directly written for, it’s appropriate to review the interpretation.
One of the arguments of the defense was that the specific wording of the amendment meant it didn’t apply to the President. If we go with the specific wording of the amendment, we get pretty far from the intended effect of the amendment. The court agreed that the amendment applied to the president despite some discrepancies, but disagreed on whether due process would be violated by limiting the ballot.
How did Trump “engage in insurrection” though? He said some firey stuff to a rally, then didn’t stop it when it was happening, but that’s all I know about.
Prior to the election, Donald Trump incited the Proud Boys specifically and other militant groups to insurrection with his ‘stand back and stand by’ comments. These were taken by many observers and the Proud Boys themselves as calls to seditious conspiracy. Members of the Proud Boys then planned the 6 January attack, including planting bombs around Washington DC, and were involved in the attack on the Capitol. Many have been convicted of this conspiracy, so there’s no legal question as to whether it happened. I don’t know if incitement to an insurrection counts as insurrection in and of itself. It might do, but I’m not a lawyer.
Having lost the election, Trump knowingly engaged in a conspiracy to undermine a free and fair election, which he knew he had lost, in order to keep himself in power. Some aspects of that conspiracy have gone to trial and defendants have been found guilty. So, there remain some legal questions as to the extent of the conspiracy, but it is quite clear that people involved broke the law in the pursuit of the conspiracy. The conspiracy constitutes an attempted insurrection in itself.
When his conspiracy failed, he then incited a violent attempt to overthrow the election (the ‘fiery stuff to a rally’) and allowed it to continue as people were violently attacked. This also constitutes an attempted insurrection.
He gave aid and comfort to the insurrectionists by delaying sending in additional police, by calling them good people while they were beating cops to death, by targeting Mike Pence with his rhetoric while the capitol is being stormed, by telling them he loved them, by telling them he’ll pardon them if re-elected. This played out in real time, on TV and on Twitter. These facts are not in dispute by any objective observer.
Now re-read the 14th amendment. Might also be a good idea to read the Jan 6 Commission report.
I live in Australia, and even I saw what was happening in the buildup.
Months before he was already starting with rhetoric claiming the election was rigged and it was blatantly obvious he was planning to try to overthrow the election
This choice about stripping him or due process or not was made before our time. The 14th amendment says “… engaged in insurrection.” It does not say found guilty of or after a trial. The bar isn’t has lofty as you’re making it seem and it’s been there since 1868, so I’m not sure why it’s suddenly concerning to you.
I mentioned in another comment but I think conviction should be the bar. During reconstruction, we bypassed due process on this because it obviously applied to anybody holding office in one of the seceding states. Now that we’re in territory the amendment wasn’t directly written for, it’s appropriate to review the interpretation.
One of the arguments of the defense was that the specific wording of the amendment meant it didn’t apply to the President. If we go with the specific wording of the amendment, we get pretty far from the intended effect of the amendment. The court agreed that the amendment applied to the president despite some discrepancies, but disagreed on whether due process would be violated by limiting the ballot.
How did Trump “engage in insurrection” though? He said some firey stuff to a rally, then didn’t stop it when it was happening, but that’s all I know about.
Prior to the election, Donald Trump incited the Proud Boys specifically and other militant groups to insurrection with his ‘stand back and stand by’ comments. These were taken by many observers and the Proud Boys themselves as calls to seditious conspiracy. Members of the Proud Boys then planned the 6 January attack, including planting bombs around Washington DC, and were involved in the attack on the Capitol. Many have been convicted of this conspiracy, so there’s no legal question as to whether it happened. I don’t know if incitement to an insurrection counts as insurrection in and of itself. It might do, but I’m not a lawyer.
Having lost the election, Trump knowingly engaged in a conspiracy to undermine a free and fair election, which he knew he had lost, in order to keep himself in power. Some aspects of that conspiracy have gone to trial and defendants have been found guilty. So, there remain some legal questions as to the extent of the conspiracy, but it is quite clear that people involved broke the law in the pursuit of the conspiracy. The conspiracy constitutes an attempted insurrection in itself.
When his conspiracy failed, he then incited a violent attempt to overthrow the election (the ‘fiery stuff to a rally’) and allowed it to continue as people were violently attacked. This also constitutes an attempted insurrection.
He gave aid and comfort to the insurrectionists by delaying sending in additional police, by calling them good people while they were beating cops to death, by targeting Mike Pence with his rhetoric while the capitol is being stormed, by telling them he loved them, by telling them he’ll pardon them if re-elected. This played out in real time, on TV and on Twitter. These facts are not in dispute by any objective observer.
Now re-read the 14th amendment. Might also be a good idea to read the Jan 6 Commission report.
Pretty fucking cut and dry.
I live in Australia, and even I saw what was happening in the buildup.
Months before he was already starting with rhetoric claiming the election was rigged and it was blatantly obvious he was planning to try to overthrow the election
Read Seth Abramson.