- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
As a Finn I say this is fine. Every military resource that is tied down and not raping and destroying Ukraine is net positive.
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>Be Putin
>Announce NATO expansion is no threat
>Pull most troops from the Finnish border, because holy fuck, Ukraine has turned the entire army you had at the start into sunflower fertalizer
>Have all the units you pulled from the Finnish border incur astronomical losses, because you want to present any win at the next election
>Declare Finland a threat again
>Move the broken units back up to the border
>ProfitIs Putin really that weak domestically to care about elections?
His greatest political opponent just “went missing” (from the prison he was being held in) and “nobody knows where he is now.” Russians have been watching their population get ground into meat by what he originally called “a military exercise” that’s been going on over six times the time estimate that he set, and he’s actively making it so nobody can leave Russia without smuggling themselves out.
He wouldn’t still hold office if he was playing fairly, so yes, he is that weak domestically. Get fucked, Vladolf Putler.
Don’t forget the oligarchs can no longer live the lives they did. Obviously they are complicit with the war but that doesn’t change the fact that there are those that would turn against him if the right opportunity presented itself
Have the days of it being illegal to call it anything but a special military operation in Russia ended?
Putin calls it war, not sure if others are allowed to do that
No.
I don’t think they even bother with elections. Russia is dictatorship not a democracy
They go through the motions, but yeah, it’s definitely all theater.
My perspective on war is so corrupted, at this point.
At one hand I want peace in Europe but on the other Hand I know Russia won’t stop until they are beaten so getting NATO involved might end this conflict faster.
I’ve wanted to fight Russia since they annexed Crimea. I knew it wouldn’t end there, and I was proven right. If they manage to obtain the natural resources of Ukraine then it will just keep escalating. The thing is, though, Russia has lost so many troops that they could easily be swept, right now. Now has never been a better time for either the EU or NATO to force Russia into demilitarization and reparations, as well as putting more economic pressure on the Chinese Dictatorship.
One thing I don’t want, though, is a direct conflict with China. Those fuckers need to try fixing their own shit, first. Idk if that makes me strong against the weak and weak against the strong, but there is simply too much to lose for all sides in that sort of conflict, unlike the very weakened and destabilized Russia.
I just feel hopeless tbh. It feels like diplomacy failed or was the wrong tool to begin with. You can’t argue with someone when their point is, “I want your land and you dead.” Every Compromise seems to be a loss at this situation. War is never good. But is not going to War even worse? I just don’t know anymore.
I’m in an even worse mental state over this, I see war with the violators as a clear logical conclusion with great benefit for future generations, but my state is going to sit on their asses and do nothing.
I appreciate a careful consideration of going to War but now it seems to set a dangerous precedent. And no one really know what will happen if Russia attacks, let’s say Poland or one of the Baltic states. Is NATO really ready for nuclear War? Or will they just shy away because it’s too risky? Maybe I’m just pessimistic about the whole thing but how could you be not?
Mutually Assured Destruction has been around for so long that nobody can possibly win in Nuclear War. In fact, Ukraine is a nation with Nuclear capacity, since they obtained 1,700+ Soviet Era nuclear weapons upon their independence in 1991. If Russia was going to pull the Nuclear War card they would have done so a long ass time ago.
If Russia Attacks a much stronger nation than Ukraine like Finland, then we know exactly what will happen. The will be absolutely decimated in land and population to say the least. Modern Russia was always a paper tiger but it has become even weaker with its failed invasion.
NATO will retaliate with nuclear weapons if it detects that nuclear weapons have been launched by the enemy. So the response would be conventional.
I’ve wanted to fight Russia since they annexed Crimea.
I’m sure you’ll be the first to volunteer for the front lines then.
Goddamn right I would. Finally a cause worth fighting for, many Americans would view it as a dream come true.
Never going to happen. Russia has nukes, remember?
how many of them are correctly mantained and in working conditions?
1% would be enough
So does Ukraine, so why hasn’t Russia tried anything with them? Oh because there is no winning a Nuclear War, idiot.
Russia isn’t threatened behind their own borders by Ukraine. If a NATO army were to invade Russia however, and Putin has his back against the wall, then I’m not sure he wouldn’t order that button to be pressed.
I suppose he could threaten foreign nations who breach the borders, but it’s not accurate to say they aren’t currently threatened behind their own borders. Russia recently lost a major railway connecting to china to the war, and a few months ago there was a military coup that had Putin hiding in a bunker.
Fair point, but it’s still not quite the same as foreign soldiers on russian soil.
If it weren’t for the existence of Russia’s massive fleet of nuclear weapons (which probably don’t actually work but it’s a hell of a risk) i’m sure NATO would have already got involved.
The only reasonable way I can see this war ending is if the internal politics of Russia decide Putin is now too much of a problem and deal with him themselves. Then whoever takes charge backs out of Ukraine because it’s not a winnable conflict.
I can’t see how anyone external can bring about an end to the conflict without risking massive escalation.
Getting NATO directly involved will not end but will rather escalate the conflict.
You can’t win a war, let alone against a nuclear state. This wouldn’t end well.
Is there any alternative? Ukraine can’t fight forever, and Russia won’t stop.
Poland, Finland, Germany and others are also no nuclear States. Will the threat of nuclear retaliation and counter-attack from their allies really stop Russia, or will they just wait a couple of years and then try this shit again with other states? I have no Idea anymore.
We all don’t need a war with China and we don’t need a war with Russia… We need to allow the Russian people and Chinese people to have a full democracy not a fake democracy, not a flawed democracy, but a full democracy ( like Ireland for example).
We don’t need anymore killing or wars or any of it; really. We need to act like one earth and share resources and save the planet…
Democracies tend to get along with other democracies… That’s the only reason I bring it up 😉
Right and how are we going to encourage that state of affairs? Because we tried asking really nicely and that didn’t work we tried sanctions and that didn’t work and the people don’t seem that interested in rising up themselves so what do we do?
The options are war or to ignore it.
Rising up themselves?
They did and they also left the country. The ones who were able to anyways. The rest are brainwashed.
No one is ignoring anything and Russian army is at great fatigue…
I don’t know what the solution is. But new conflicts and wars aren’t a solution at all. Just a step closer to WW/// OR global genocide by nuclear weapons= mass extinction of humans … And probably a big loss of knowledge; history; culture ETC.
NTHX
Thanks for the downvotes. You all don’t think WW/// or nuclear war can happen/is possibilities?
We need to allow
Oh crap, I guess we didn’t realize we were sitting on the remote with the button that prevented that!
Honestly, I appreciate the “good vibes” tone here but it’s painfully naive in any practical sense.
Ye, “allow” / help.
If Russia doesn’t have intervention and doesn’t get reformed by other countries it will ALWAYS go back to its corrupt/crooked ways. If it’s closed off like North Korea it will absolutely be even more extremist then now. And now is pretty fucking bad already.
Think Japan and Germany… If they didn’t have the world get involved, they’d still be what they were in WW2.
I’m not sure there is a way to “help” other than war, unfortunately
Edit: which is a pretty crappy wayto help
According to the Russian president, Finland was “dragged” into Nato.
And who did the dragging Vlady?
Exactly. Most didn’t want to join before Putin decided to invade Ukraine.
Putin managed to do what decades and decades of pro-NATO propaganda couldn’t. It’s almost impressive.
Did they forget that Finland created Simo Heyha?
If NATO get involved then China will.
China doesn’t have the ability to project power. It’d be miserable to attack them on their own territory, but other than that, they’re not a serious threat.
China, Russia, North Korea, US, France and many other countries have nuclear weapons … Do we really need a nuclear war ?
No one’s advocating for a nuclear war. If there is one Russia will be the one to start it there’s no reason for China in North Korea to get involved.
No one advocating; correct. Putin is off his rocker though. So if Russia does go into a war with NATO a nuclear war is not unlikely.
If You don’t think Vladolf Putler is completely insane; then please tell me why?
He isn’t suicidal. He wants to be in charge of he’s imagined great empire, it’s kind of hard to do that if it’s in a radioactive wasteland even if he does survive.
“he is not suicidal” first how do You know much of anything about what’s in Putins head?
Maybe he’s not suicidal … But he is a maniac / psycho like Hitler and we know how that ended; he blamed Germany and went down 👇👎 and he knew he was fucked.
Putin cannot lose power or he knows he’s fucked… If he is fucked ; you really don’t think this psycho would nuke?
There are many possibilities to how this all ends.
lol … you think only one nuke flies n then there’s no more? or do you think it’s more like 100s over a short span of time ?
it’s just a sneaky little recruitment campaign… sign up now boys, we’re forming a nice leisurely unit to sit and watch the Finns do nothing… don’t worry, we won’t accidentally send you to die like worms in a ditch in Ukraine…
I guess this is classic troop rotation shenanigans?
Instead of rotating towards areas near Moscow, rotating towards St. Petersburg gives soldiers a break/training while pressuring Finland.
What pressuring? They’re scared to shit to point of hallucinating threats because they think because we have a prime-eval grudge against them.
If they magically would co-operate with us, drop their shit we would more than happy resume the trade with them.
So the plan working as intended. Spread’em thin, Ivan.
Forget article 5, if Russia thinks that Ukrainians are tough mothers, they (literally) won’t know what hit them in Finland.
Thick, dense forests with millions of trees. Moutainous regions. Snow forever. Lots of places a sniper pair could hide.
Even forget about snipers, Finland have one of the best artillery in Europe and a geography that’s almost made for creating bottlenecks for invaders
The problem from here looks like Putin has no idea how the country is going to be held together without him.
And Putin is somewhat right. Russia has no one that can threaten it into action like Putin does. Tyrants whose label goes unsaid leave no line of succession.
And Putin, like Rome making a desert and calling it peace, hopes to make everywhere around him rubble because Russia is crumbling.
Russia has no one that can threaten it into action like Putin does.
Russia has had an endless stream of such rulers for more than a thousand years and they do not represent a continuous dynasty. When Putin is gone, he’ll be replaced by someone equally nasty.
Finland’s blank NATO papers were kept in a safe (30 years figuratively?) and as soon as the war(s) started to cause us harm, they were pulled out of the safe and ratified.
From the news at the time of NATO ratification: “Look in the mirror” - Sauli Niinistö
From the news of the last two weeks: Now the eastern border is pretty much closed for the foreseeable future.
My armchair stance: If the Soviets angered nearly 4 million Finns in the 1940s who had only pitchforks and cows and the result was 126 875 dead and 188 671 wounded Soviets. [*](https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talvisota) Now there is a nation of +5 600 000 grumpy Finns with access to modern weaponry and a bitter memories of the past…
I don’t know what the russian leaders are hallucinating trying to anger us more? :P
There are no Russian leaders left with memory of the 1940s.
Our sorrow of the year is the death of Martti Ahtisaari, a Peace Nobelist. May his legacy to be respected in honor, his wisdom would be in great need as of today.
Sauli Niinistö, who will soon peacefully leave us as a president and join the same history books. Sad we can’t have a another Kekkonen, depends who you ask. I hope the next president will have a stone cool head in this heated world.:)
This is a prime example of Russo-Finnish relations. PERKELE!
Moving to open a second front. In the winter. At the home of the White Death. Surely nothing can possibly go wrong with this plan.
Russia will absolutely not invade Finland, even if it weren’t part of NATO and the EU.
Which is great news for the Russian soldiers who are going to be stationed there. Not going to the meat grinder instead.
Didn’t they do that twice?
Only once that I know of, and that was arguably a stalemate even though the USSR took part of Karelia. The Finns also learned their lesson there, and today (enormous network of bunkers, largest artillery force in Europe, F-35s on order, military reserve is 20% of the population) they are ready.
Plus, of course, they are EU members (which has a mutual defense clause) and NATO (whose Article 5 is well-known)
Only once that I know of
It was like one war with a pause in the middle of it rather than two distinct conflicts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_WarOK, that’s the “one” I was thinking of. I was confused as to what the other might be, since Finland and the USSR were born at the same time.
You’re probably right, but that was exactly what people were commenting while russian troops were officially still just doing an exercise near the Ukrainian border. Putin is a madman and capable of unexpected crazy behaviour
I suppose, but attacking NATO would be a whole other level of crazy. The biggest winner there would be Ukraine.
If Russia triggers article 5 Ukraine will be a smoking crater just like the rest of the planet
Well no actually. US intelligence was basically telling the entire world that the invasion was 100 percent going to happen. How do you not remember that?
I don’t because idk who they told it to. Not me (I was just concerned it would happen by myself) and obviosly not the many people who were still commenting it would never happen while russian soldiers had already been reported crossing the Ukrainian border
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War , death, poverty, murder, disease and rape are never a joke my friendly friend
Hey question for the arm-chair generals: if some group started operations on the Russian troops would it escalate or would both nations just treat it like random terrorism?
Question for the questioner:
if some group started operations on the Russian troops
What group are you talking about?
Hint: No one in NATO wants anything in Russia.
I don’t know. Some terrorist group goes to Finland, creeps over the border, and burns down something Russian or the opposite. Border incidents do happen. I am curious how it would be handled. Would everyone assume the worst and the world ends?
The Nazis started WW2 by sending a group of prisoners in Polish Army uniforms to attack a German radio station close to the border. I’m sure Putin is familiar with the history, and if he needed a casus belli, would consider it.
Not that it would make attempting to invade Finland (especially with Russia’s depleted forces) any less idiotic. At this stage, I’m not sure that Finland would even bother invoking Article 5.
Can’t imagine they have too many spare units to locate there…
